- From: fantasai <fantasai.lists@inkedblade.net>
- Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2008 15:17:33 -0700
- To: www-style@w3.org
Summary:
RESOLVED: Respond to Al Gilman that deprecation of system colors in
CSS3 Color is not obsolescence, and accessibility can still
rely on system colors for the time being. The WG does not
intend to obsolete system colors unless the replacement
('appearance') is ready at REC status.
RESOLVED: First proposal (update prose to match tokenization for
comment syntax) accepted for CSS2.1 Issue 66
http://csswg.inkedblade.net/spec/css2.1#issue-66
RESOLVED: Proposal accepted for CSS2.1 Issue 58
http://csswg.inkedblade.net/spec/css2.1#issue-58
RESOLVED: Proposal accepted for CSS2.1 Issue 59 (list markers & overflow)
http://csswg.inkedblade.net/spec/css2.1#issue-59
RESOLVED: Proposal to add
Add to definition for 'outside': "The size or contents of
the marker box may affect the height of the principal block
box and/or the height of its first line box, and in some
cases may cause the creation of a new line box.
Note: This interaction may be more precisely defined in
a future level of CSS.
accepted for CSS2.1 Issue 64 (marker may affect height of list item)
http://csswg.inkedblade.net/spec/css2.1#issue-64
RESOLVED: Proposal accepted for CSS2.1 Issue 65
http://csswg.inkedblade.net/spec/css2.1#issue-65
Full minutes below.
=======================================================================
Attendees:
David Baron (late)
Bert Bos
Giorgi Chavchanidze
Arron Eicholz
Elika Etemad (scribe)
Sylvain Galineau
Daniel Glazman (chair)
Melinda Grant
Ming Gao
Peter Linss
Alex Mogilevsky
David Singer
Jason Cranford Teague
<RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/08/06-css-irc
ScribeNick: fantasai
Administrivia
-------------
Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2008JulSep/0075.html
glazou: I don't think we have official regrets for today
glazou: David Baron is on summer break
glazou: probably we had regrets from Molly from a few weeks ago
glazou: Anything to add?
...
* glazou notifies the WG that Richard Ishida is invited to ftf in Cambridge;
agreement from Alex just arrived
HCG feedback on CSS3 Color
--------------------------
Al Gilman said deprecating system colors in CSS 3 Colors leaves
a gap in accessibility because CSS 3 UI is not ready yet to replace
system colors.
fantasai: CSS3 UI is in CR
glazou: But it's not a REC
fantasai: They're deprecated, not obsoleted. You still have to implement
them.
fantasai: deprecating them just says "these are expected to go away,
but they're still there"
glazou: So you suggest replying that Deprecation is not removal or
obsolescence, and accessibility can still rely on system colors
for the time being.
glazou: I suggest adding that We will not obsolete system colors unless
the replacement ('appearance') is ready at REC status.
< SaloniR> agree
RESOLVED: accepted to respond as stated above
CSS2.1 Issues
-------------
http://csswg.inkedblade.net/spec/css2.1#issue-62
and http://csswg.inkedblade.net/spec/css2.1#issue-51
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2008Jul/0602.html
Looking at Bert's proposal.
fantasai: Do we need to call out any other at-rules? Original proposal said
that all at-rules are invalid inside @media in 2.1
<dsinger> was there an interaction with the variables proposal here?
(It's too early in the morning!)
<fantasai> no, this is just 2.1
<glazou> what fantasai said
glazou: maybe a problem with @font
fantasai: I think we should have a blanket statement about at-rules being
invalid in CSS2.1. If a CSS3 module wants to make something
valid in @media, then it needs to call that out specifically.
ACTION fantasai: propose exact wording, be less confusing than last time
http://csswg.inkedblade.net/spec/css2.1#issue-66
Testcase at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2008Jul/att-0060/escaped-comment.htm
fantasai: Firefox, Opera, Safari follow tokenization rules
fantasai: IE7 follows prose rules
fantasai: Proposed to make prose consistent with tokenization.
fantasai: This means that \*/ does not end a comment
fantasai: But you can use a Unicode escape
fantasai: This will allow a future CSSOM interface for comments to be able
to serialize */
glazou: I suggest to accept this proposal
peter: aside from matching implementations, what is the advantage of this
proposal?
<Zakim> +[Mozilla]
< glazou> (David Baron just joined)
peter: I think a backslash should always do what a backslash does
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2008Jul/0473.html
glazou: I think we should follow the grammar here
peter: I don't feel that strongly about this, just raising a concern
glazou: Only browser affected by the change is IE
saloni: We're fine with the change. IE is going to match Firefox, Opera,
and Safari
glazou: Let's do it
RESOLVED: Proposal accepted for Issue 66
http://csswg.inkedblade.net/spec/css2.1#issue-58
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2008Jul/0451.html
(clarification, accepted first proposal for issue 66, not second)
glazou: I think the proposal for issue 58 is reasonable
glazou summarizes the issue
RESOLVED: Proposal accepted for issue 58
http://csswg.inkedblade.net/spec/css2.1#issue-59
Arron: If you have a list item, and you set a height and width on the
list box and set overflow: scroll
Arron: Does the marker show up when it's outside? If so, does it scroll
with the contents?
Arron: If you say hidden, do you see the marker? (when it's outside)
peter: my opinion is that if the list position is outside, then the marker
box is not inside the list item box. Therefore it should not be
clipped or overflowed or hidden or anything.
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2008Jul/0454.html
fantasai summarizes test results
fantasai: I think most -- all -- web developers would expect the marker
to appear
fantasai: therefore I say we should go with IE's behavior, even though
FF, Opera, and Safari interoperate on not showing the marker
glazou: I agree. I'm not saying it's reasonable from our perspective,
but it is from theirs
Bert: I don't think more testcases would help. We have different
behavior, we have to choose.
fantasai: BTW the link to the hidden testcase shows a visible testcase,
the real hidden testcase looks exactly like the scroll one
except without the scrollbars (on all browsers that we tried)
glazou: straw poll
glazou: I think the marker should be visible.
peter: agree
fantasai: agree
dsinger: no opinion
jason: agree
george: visible
bert: visible
arron: visible
alex: visible
saloni: visible
sylvain: visible
dbaron: abstain
melinda: visible
ming: pass
glazou: I see a majority in favor of visible, with three abstain
RESOLVED: Make the marker visible
Add to definition of 'outside':
| 'overflow' on the element does not clip the marker box.
| The marker box is fixed with respect to the principal block
| box's border and does not scroll with the principal block
| box's content.
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2008Jul/0454.html
RESOLVED: Proposal accepted
http://csswg.inkedblade.net/spec/css2.1#issue-64
<dbaron> (I'm not sure that the proposal is needed -- I think it's
what the spec already says -- but it shouldn't hurt things,
I don't think.)
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2008Jul/0453.html
dbaron: Add that "This interaction may be more precisely defined in
future levels of CSS."
fantasai: I guess we should say "size and/or contents"
dbaron: Need to add that it may cause the creation of a line box.
This text might imply that it can't, and that may be something
we need to add when we define things more precisely.
dbaron: So maybe add "and/or cause the creation of a line box that
would not otherwise be present"
dbaron: this is different from increasing the height of the box
because it affects baseline alignment wrt the baseline of
the block
arron: I think we need more tests
dbaron: I think it's ok to be vague in CSS2.1
ACTION: fantasai combine dbaron's edits into proposal
Proposal:
Add to definition for 'outside': "The size or contents of
the marker box may affect the height of the principal block
box and/or the height of its first line box, and in some
cases may cause the creation of a new line box.
Note: This interaction may be more precisely defined in
a future level of CSS.
RESOLVED: accepted proposal above for issue 64
http://csswg.inkedblade.net/spec/css2.1#issue-56
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2008Jul/0450.html
More time needed to evaluate.
Action to everyone to come up with an opinion about this for next
week's conference call
Discussion postponed to next week.
http://csswg.inkedblade.net/spec/css2.1#issue-65
RESOLVED: accepted proposal for issue 65
Logo contest
------------
Jason: fantasai and I are having discussions with IanJ about the
website design, don't want to go forward with logo contest
until we get that sorted
Jason: We want to coordinate with W3C's redesign, but also have
information architecture and design that works best for
our own audience
Agenda for F2F
--------------
http://csswg.inkedblade.net/planning/cambridge-2008
glazou: Come up with topics to discuss for F2F so we can have a strong F2F
glazou: It would be good to get more information on trains to Cambridge
<dsinger> you'll need to get to Liverpool street or King's Cross, as I recall
<dbaron> http://www.cam.ac.uk/visitors/gettingto.html
<dbaron> http://www.visitcambridge.org/howtogethere/howtogethere.php
<dbaron> might be useful
<dsinger> since St Pancras is next door to King's cross, I think it will
be easy
peter: I will be there early, and I will have a car.
glazou: If I am late, start without me; I shouldn't be very late.
glazou: I have a meeting in paris on Tuesday
dsinger: In general, can we get an agenda more than four weeks before the
meeting? It's hard for me to justify international travel without
an agenda
Received on Wednesday, 6 August 2008 22:18:13 UTC