- From: Francois Daoust <fd@w3.org>
- Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2008 17:35:55 +0100
- To: public-bpwg@w3.org
The minutes of today's call are available at:
http://www.w3.org/2008/03/20-bpwg-minutes.html
... and copied as text below.
François.
20 Mar 2008
[2]Agenda
[2] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-bpwg/2008Mar/0059.html
See also: [3]IRC log
[3] http://www.w3.org/2008/03/20-bpwg-irc
Attendees
Present
Bryan_Sullivan, DKA, Jason, SeanP, drooks, francois, jeffs,
jo, kai
Regrets
Nacho, Abel, Miguel, Magnus, Dom, srowen, EdM, Adam, Shah,
AlanC, rob, hgerlach, AlanTai, MartinJ, murari, kemp, Yeliz
Chair
DKA
Scribe
Bryan, Francois
Contents
* [4]Topics
1. [5]CT Task Force report
2. [6]BP2 update
3. [7]Mobile OK Pro
4. [8]Korean Task Force
5. [9]ACTION-696 Summary of University of Helsinki thesis
6. [10]ACTION-714 Response to MMA guidelines
* [11]Summary of Action Items
_________________________________________________________
CT Task Force report
<jeffs> tnx
Francois: Making progress, with more problems arising. Difficult to
speed things up, trying to get ready for FPWD. Editor's call next
week, depending upon progress.
... in the current draft there are many red boxes showing issues
that need resolution.
<francois> [12]last CT draft
[12]
http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/TaskForces/CT/editors-drafts/Guidelines/080313
Francois: there is one big issue but the little problems take time,
e.g. detection of browsers and non-browsers. These sort of issues
need more discussions, raise concerns/issues, etc.
... from 3.1.2 and beyond need work.On 4/3 we should be ready to
review and make a decision on public draft.
Dan: any other issues?
Francois: TF activity is good, no need to discuss other things here.
Dan: re the Mobile OK Pro TF, update is requested
... but with Kai not present, we will have to wait.
BP2 update
<francois> ScribeNick: francois
<DKA> Scribe: Francois
<scribe> Scribe: francois
<DKA> ScribeNick: francois
Bryan: small update, I've yet to find cristallized things to add to
the document
... I included some of Sean's Ajax techniques
... 5.11.1: a little bit of update
... In "provide alternatives to Ajax", I have a ref to
[13]http://thinkingandmaking.com/entries/63
... It would be really useful if someone could have a look at it
... and crystallize it
[13] http://thinkingandmaking.com/entries/63
DKA: volunteer to turn that into "How to do it"?
<jeffs> want me to?
Bryan: by default, I'll do that if no one else does.
jeffs: If you want me to take a look at this specific section
(5.9.4), I'll do it over the week-end
Bryan: jeffs, I think they have some good ideas, I just don't know
how to express it.
<jeffs> nuke?
<scribe> ACTION: jeff to take a look at the ref in 5.9.4 and
summarize it [recorded in
[14]http://www.w3.org/2008/03/20-bpwg-minutes.html#action01]
<trackbot-ng> Sorry, couldn't find user - jeff
<scribe> ACTION: Sonstein to take a look at the ref in 5.9.4 and
summarize it [recorded in
[15]http://www.w3.org/2008/03/20-bpwg-minutes.html#action02]
<trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-719 - Take a look at the ref in 5.9.4
and summarize it [on Jeffrey Sonstein - due 2008-03-27].
Bryan: One exchange with francois which may be good: generalize
"Minimize external script files" to "Minimize external files"
... in 5.5.6, not done in latest draft
... Very small change, but the issue of caching is an important one.
... In summary, I made a small update based on the discussions of
the mailing-list, if I missed anything, feel free to tell me
DKA: that's where actions to come up with BPs could be useful. I
have one actually.
Bryan: one question: we had two inputs from ETRI: one about the ADC
and the seamless paper.
... I didn't exactly know what to do with that, and just turned them
into general statements
... It would be useful to expand them
DKA: Yes, I think we need more text in there. The best thing would
be to raise this as an issue.
<scribe> ACTION: Dan to raise an issue on extending BPs on ADC and
seamless Korean inputs [recorded in
[16]http://www.w3.org/2008/03/20-bpwg-minutes.html#action03]
<trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-720 - Raise an issue on extending BPs
on ADC and seamless Korean inputs [on Daniel Appelquist - due
2008-03-27].
Bryan: about improving DDC, where does that fit?
DKA: we agreed there would be no DDC in the document.
... I think we're already addressing the Korean proposal here.
<jeffs> looking for 5.9.4 reference in draft but not finding it...
anyone point me to it?
Bryan: device classification and appendix on device properties that
may be important to request using the DDR.
... Any help on that would be useful.
<Zakim> Kai, you wanted to ask about ddc
Bryan: was trying to find actionable items about both Appendix A and
B (Best Practice Dependent Device Properties and Classification of
Devices)
<jeffs> looking for 5.9.4 URI reference in draft but not finding
it... anyone point me to it?
<jeffs> thanks
Kai: could someone remind me why we decided against ADC?
DKA: [explaining the decision]. We've gone back and forth on that
one. I don't want to do that once again.
... DDC, the fact that we put it in BP1, the fact that it was
misunderstood by our Korean friends, typically show it probably
wasn't a good idea
Kai: I just have the feeling that ADC is what people need. I think
it's a mistake, making the problem worse, rather than solving
anything.
DKA: we can open an issue on that Kai if you want to
... I think we structured the doc in BP2 so that we don't need an
ADC.
Kai: I think the issue is a good idea. I'll raise one not to have
the group lose time on this.
Mobile OK Pro
Kai: The London F2F was held, not strongly attended but very good
progress made. Tackled more stringent repeatable test requirements.
... Interesting discussions about Mobile OK Pro and BP2, e.g. do we
want RecTrack for Pro or remain a note; in the end creating
guidelines imply room to comply.
... Good progress was made on interpreting test results.
... an updated document is available, but with 5 or 6 tests updated,
unsure whether to put it on the website
Dan: proposes to put a new draft on the website
Kai: appeal to all for feedback when the new version is posted; on
the text differences, and if the type of tests is valuable and we
should proceed in this manner
Dan: will you send an email for input?
Kai: Yes
Dan: re the Note vs RecTrack, the BP1 was RecTrack but
non-normative; Mobile OK was normative. A note is less potent, so
maybe this should be on the RecTrack
Kai: Negative on publishing as a note, but should remain on plan for
RecTrack
Dan: any machine testable tests?
Kai: Yes, and some should be supportable by checker
Dan: Jo, anything to add on the Pro F2F?
Jo: not other than the general discussions
... thought Pro could be made more machine testable by incorporating
BP2
Dan: is there an issue or action to move that forward?
Kai: suggests to resolve subjectivity of the tests, taking that
away. Also repeatability. Addressing those first is proposed, then
address Pro as a whole e.g. relation to BP2
<jeffs> firmly agree
Kai: no proposed actions other than what is being done
Korean Task Force
Dan: there were ideas of having a focus group to address Korean
needs, meeting in Korea, able to report and interact with the group
... trying to get that idea going
<jo> [have exchanged email with Seungyun and he will take it to his
colleagues and get back to us]
ACTION-696 Summary of University of Helsinki thesis
<francois> [17]thesis summary
[17] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-bpwg/2008Mar/0061.html
Francois: the document is long, related to analysis of AJAX
performance, conclusion is that things are slow, and there is wide
variance in performance
<jo> ACTION-696?
<trackbot-ng> ACTION-696 -- François Daoust to summarise the U
Helsinki masters thesis on Mobile Ajax performance with a view to
including some aspects into BP 2 -- due 2008-03-11 -- OPEN
<trackbot-ng>
[18]http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/actions/696
[18] http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/actions/696
Francois: there seems to be some interesting material to include or
reference; not anything new necessarily, but some ideas about
efficiency for performance purposes
... we can use it as emphasis for what we have written. Extracted
some info from a Yahoo document, not sure if it is related to BP or
not, e.g. reduce DNS lookups
... not sure if these are BP for mobile, but in the constrained
environment this make more sense
Bryan: this is usually an issue for non-proxied browsers (few) and
specialized web applications, but it may be useful to look at
Francois: one issue, re use of HTTP streaming, using persistent HTTP
connections, may be valuable
<jo> (keep-alive)
Dan: not sure if these are elaborations, re the Seoul discussion we
want clear developer focused details
<jeffs> persistent connections with a device that is mobile may be
problematical
Bryan: support the reference to HTTP keep-alive, this is a common
optimization that we recommend
Dan: are you suggesting to reference this document?
Francois: other than linking them to the existing BPs, its one more
external source in the same direction
... don't recommend directly linking each BP to the external
documents, just as a reference
Dan: we will give Bryan an action to review Francois's report to
extract as possible
ACTION-714 Response to MMA guidelines
<jo> ACTION-714?
<trackbot-ng> ACTION-714 -- Jo Rabin to draft review of MMA
Advertising -- due 2008-03-20 -- OPEN
<trackbot-ng>
[19]http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/actions/714
[19] http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/actions/714
<jo> [20]jo's proposed response to MMA
[20] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-bpwg/2008Mar/0047.html
Jo: overall we think it is a good idea to have a global
recommendation
... Web should be capitalized, ref MWBP, Mobile OK, Checker,
reducing redirects for Ads
<DKA> PROPOSED RESOLUTION: We agree the text of response to MMA
guidelines as drafted by H. Rabin.
<francois> +1
<jo> PROPOSED RESOLUTION: We agree the text of response to MMA
guidelines as drafted by H. Rabin under ACTION-714
Bryan: why would we recommend against caching?
Jo: Sean's idea, retrieving an ad, not strongly held, maybe we
should be silent on this
<jeffs> sorry, hamfisted today
<francois> Bryan: I think it assumes one particular advertising
paradigm, but use of caching for content is typically a practice we
would recommend
Bryan: caching is a viable option if statistics are not an issue
<jo> PROPOSED RESOLUTION: We agree the text of response to MMA
guidelines as drafted by Jo under ACTION-714 modulo changing text on
caching to say "and ensuring that the correct cache options are
used"
<Kai> I agree very much with Bryan
Bryan: agrees that cache use is context-specific
+1
<DKA> +1
<Kai> +1
<francois> +1
<jeffs> +1
Jo: looking for Dom to send the response
<jo> RESOLUTION: We agree the text of response to MMA guidelines as
drafted by Jo under ACTION-714 modulo changing text on caching to
say "and ensuring that the correct cache options are used"
ACTION-710
<jo> ACTION-710?
<trackbot-ng> ACTION-710 -- François Daoust to test the Effect of
HEAD Requests on Various Servers -- due 2008-03-13 -- OPEN
<trackbot-ng>
[21]http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/actions/710
[21] http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/actions/710
Francois: will send a report to the list, it's still open
<jo> [+1 to closing call at this stage]
<francois> ACTION: daoust to prepare a report's form to fill to test
Aaron static/dynamic example [recorded in
[22]http://www.w3.org/2008/03/20-bpwg-minutes.html#action04]
<trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-721 - Prepare a report's form to fill
to test Aaron static/dynamic example [on François Daoust - due
2008-03-27].
Summary of Action Items
[NEW] ACTION: Dan to raise an issue on extending BPs on ADC and
seamless Korean inputs [recorded in
[23]http://www.w3.org/2008/03/20-bpwg-minutes.html#action03]
[NEW] ACTION: daoust to prepare a report's form to fill to test
Aaron static/dynamic example [recorded in
[24]http://www.w3.org/2008/03/20-bpwg-minutes.html#action04]
[NEW] ACTION: Sonstein to take a look at the ref in 5.9.4 and
summarize it [recorded in
[25]http://www.w3.org/2008/03/20-bpwg-minutes.html#action02]
[End of minutes]
_________________________________________________________
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Received on Thursday, 20 March 2008 16:36:31 UTC