ISSUE-93: Delete Details Element

details

Delete Details Element

State:
CLOSED
Product:
HTML 5 spec
Raised by:
Shelley Powers
Opened on:
2010-01-08
Description:
I understand the interest in having this element. Rather than having to use JS
to collapse or expand a section, the functionality can be built into the user
agent.

However, the use of JavaScript for the purpose of expanding or collapsing a
section is both well-defined and common among web applications. More
importantly, following the concept of progressive enhancement, these types of
expanding sections are expanded by default if script is turned off. To have a
section that is dynamic but not controlled by script is going to cause
confusion, particularly among people who turn scripting off and are assuming
that there are no "expando" sections in the web page.

In fact, I don't see how this element will make developing web applications
that much simpler. This type of functionality is trivial with JS.

Change Proposal:
http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/removedetails

HTML5-SPEC-SECTIONS [the-details-element]
Related Actions Items:
No related actions
Related emails:
  1. [Bug 8379] Remove Section 4.11.1 The Details Element (from bugzilla@jessica.w3.org on 2010-06-30)
  2. Working Group Decision on ISSUE-93 details (from mjs@apple.com on 2010-06-30)
  3. RE: {agenda} HTML WG telecon 2010-07-01: issues, surveys, decisions, publication status, TF reports (from Paul.Cotton@microsoft.com on 2010-06-30)
  4. {agenda} HTML WG telecon 2010-07-01: issues, surveys, decisions, publication status, TF reports (from mjs@apple.com on 2010-06-30)
  5. {minutes} } HTML WG telecon 2010-07-24: issues, surveys, decisions, publication status, TF reports (from Paul.Cotton@microsoft.com on 2010-06-25)
  6. Fwd: {agenda} HTML WG telecon 2010-07-24: issues, surveys, decisions, publication status, TF reports (from rubys@intertwingly.net on 2010-06-23)
  7. {minutes} HTML WG telecon 2010-06-10: action items, decision policy, task force reports, publication status (from adrianba@microsoft.com on 2010-06-10)
  8. Re: {agenda} HTML WG telecon 2010-06-10: action items, decision policy, task force reports, publication status (from laura.lee.carlson@gmail.com on 2010-06-10)
  9. FW: {agenda} HTML WG telecon 2010-06-10: action items, decision policy, task force reports, publication status (from Paul.Cotton@microsoft.com on 2010-06-10)
  10. {agenda} HTML WG telecon 2010-06-10: action items, decision policy, task force reports, publication status (from Paul.Cotton@microsoft.com on 2010-06-10)
  11. {agenda} HTML WG telecon 2010-06-03 (from rubys@intertwingly.net on 2010-06-02)
  12. RE: {agenda} HTML WG telecon 2010-05-27 (from adrianba@microsoft.com on 2010-05-27)
  13. Re: {agenda} HTML WG telecon 2010-05-27 (from faulkner.steve@gmail.com on 2010-05-27)
  14. Re: {agenda} HTML WG telecon 2010-05-27 (from laura.lee.carlson@gmail.com on 2010-05-27)
  15. {agenda} HTML WG telecon 2010-05-27 (from rubys@intertwingly.net on 2010-05-26)
  16. {agenda} HTML WG telecon 2010-05-20: Surveys close, Publishing new Working Drafts (from mjs@apple.com on 2010-05-19)
  17. minutes, 2010-05-13 HTML WG telcon (from mike@w3.org on 2010-05-14)
  18. World-readable issue survey results (from mjs@apple.com on 2010-05-13)
  19. {agenda} HTML WG telecon 2010-05-13: Action items, surveys, Task Force reports (from mjs@apple.com on 2010-05-12)
  20. ISSUE-93 - Removing the details Element - Straw Poll for Objections (from mjs@apple.com on 2010-05-12)
  21. RE: {agenda} HTML WG telcon 2010-05-06: Action items, issues, decision policy, calls, surveys, publishing - minutes (from adrianba@microsoft.com on 2010-05-06)
  22. {agenda} HTML WG telcon 2010-05-06: Action items, issues, decision policy, calls, surveys, publishing (from rubys@intertwingly.net on 2010-05-05)
  23. HTML-A11Y Task Force Recommendation: ISSUES-90, 91, 93, 95, 96, & 97 (from janina@rednote.net on 2010-05-03)
  24. Re: ISSUE-93 Details change proposal discussion (from xn--mlform-iua@xn--mlform-iua.no on 2010-05-03)
  25. Re: ISSUE-93 Details change proposal discussion (from benoit.piette@gmail.com on 2010-05-02)
  26. Re: ISSUE-93 Details change proposal discussion (from jackalmage@gmail.com on 2010-05-02)
  27. Re: ISSUE-93 Details change proposal discussion (from benoit.piette@gmail.com on 2010-05-02)
  28. Re: ISSUE-93 Details change proposal discussion (from jackalmage@gmail.com on 2010-05-02)
  29. ISSUE-93 Details change proposal discussion (from benoit.piette@gmail.com on 2010-05-02)
  30. RE: {agenda} HTML WG telcon 2010-04-29: Action items, new issues, Task Force reports - minutes of the meeting (from adrianba@microsoft.com on 2010-04-29)
  31. Re: ISSUE-93 edited (from mjs@apple.com on 2010-04-28)
  32. {agenda} HTML WG telcon 2010-04-29: Action items, new issues, Task Force reports (from mjs@apple.com on 2010-04-28)
  33. ISSUE-93 edited (from shelley.just@gmail.com on 2010-04-26)
  34. Re: Zero-edit Change Proposal for ISSUE-90 figure, ISSUE-91 aside, ISSUE-93 details, ISSUE-95 hidden, ISSUE-96 progress, and ISSUE-97 meter (from mjs@apple.com on 2010-04-21)
  35. {agenda} HTML WG telcon 2010-04-22: Action items, issues, decision policy, A11Y recommendations, polyglot spec (from Paul.Cotton@microsoft.com on 2010-04-21)
  36. {agenda} HTML WG telcon 2010-04-22: Action items, issues, decision policy, A11Y recommendations, polyglot spec (from Paul.Cotton@microsoft.com on 2010-04-21)
  37. Fwd: HTML-A11Y Task Force Recommendation: ISSUES-90, 91, 93, 95, 96, & 97 (from rubys@intertwingly.net on 2010-04-21)
  38. Minutes of HTML WG meeting, Apr 8 2010 (from Paul.Cotton@microsoft.com on 2010-04-08)
  39. {agenda} HTML WG telcon 2010-04-08: calls for proposals, issue status (from mjs@apple.com on 2010-04-07)
  40. Re: ISSUE-90, ISSUE-91, ISSUE-93, ISSUE-95, ISSUE-96, ISSSUE-97: (new semantic elements/attributes) - Chairs Solicit Alternate Proposals or Counter-Proposals (from mjs@apple.com on 2010-04-06)
  41. Re: ISSUE-93 Change Proposal (from shelley.just@gmail.com on 2010-04-06)
  42. Re: ISSUE-93 Change Proposal (from mjs@apple.com on 2010-04-06)
  43. Re: Removal of other semantic elements (from jonas@sicking.cc on 2010-04-04)
  44. Re: Removal of other semantic elements (from shelley.just@gmail.com on 2010-04-04)
  45. Re: Removal of other semantic elements (from faulkner.steve@gmail.com on 2010-04-04)
  46. Re: Removal of other semantic elements (from shelley.just@gmail.com on 2010-04-02)
  47. Re: Removal of other semantic elements (from shelley.just@gmail.com on 2010-04-02)
  48. Re: Removal of other semantic elements (from mjs@apple.com on 2010-04-02)
  49. RE: Removal of other semantic elements (from jfoliot@stanford.edu on 2010-04-02)
  50. Removal of other semantic elements (from jonas@sicking.cc on 2010-04-02)
  51. [minutes] 2010-04-01 HTML Teleconference (from rubys@intertwingly.net on 2010-04-01)
  52. Re: Change proposals uploaded to Wiki - URLs, suggestions on Issue 92 table (from mjs@apple.com on 2010-03-31)
  53. ISSUE-93 Change Proposal (from shelley.just@gmail.com on 2010-03-31)
  54. Re: {agenda} HTML WG telcon 2010-04-01: action items, decision policy update, issue status (from shelley.just@gmail.com on 2010-03-30)
  55. {agenda} HTML WG telcon 2010-04-01: action items, decision policy update, issue status (from Paul.Cotton@microsoft.com on 2010-03-30)
  56. {agenda} HTML WG telcon 2010-04-01: action items, decision policy update, issue status (from Paul.Cotton@microsoft.com on 2010-03-30)
  57. [minutes] 20100325 HTML teleconference (from plh@w3.org on 2010-03-30)
  58. Re: {agenda} HTML WG telcon 2010-03-25: decision policy, issue status, updates from meetings, task force reports (from mjs@apple.com on 2010-03-24)
  59. {agenda} HTML WG telcon 2010-03-25: decision policy, issue status, updates from meetings, task force reports (from rubys@intertwingly.net on 2010-03-24)
  60. Re: Breakdown of issues (from rubys@intertwingly.net on 2010-03-12)
  61. Breakdown of issues (from mjs@apple.com on 2010-03-12)
  62. Re: requesting one more extension (from shelleypowers@burningbird.net on 2010-02-18)
  63. RE: requesting one more extension (from Paul.Cotton@microsoft.com on 2010-02-18)
  64. Re: requesting one more extension (from shelleypowers@burningbird.net on 2010-02-18)
  65. RE: requesting one more extension (from Paul.Cotton@microsoft.com on 2010-02-18)
  66. Re: ISSUE-93 details - Call for Change Proposals (from mjs@apple.com on 2010-01-27)
  67. {agenda} HTML WG telcon 2010-01-28: (from mjs@apple.com on 2010-01-27)
  68. ISSUE-93 details - Call for Change Proposals (from Paul.Cotton@microsoft.com on 2010-01-26)
  69. Re: {agenda} HTML WG telcon 2010-01-14: AIs, CfC/CfPs, TFs, plus: heartbeat docs (from shelley.just@gmail.com on 2010-01-13)
  70. {agenda} HTML WG telcon 2010-01-14: AIs, CfC/CfPs, TFs, plus: heartbeat docs (from rubys@intertwingly.net on 2010-01-13)
  71. Re: ISSUE-93 (details): Return Details Element [HTML 5 spec] (from mike@w3.org on 2010-01-09)
  72. Re: ISSUE-93 (details): Return Details Element [HTML 5 spec] (from jonas@sicking.cc on 2010-01-08)
  73. Re: ISSUE-93 (details): Return Details Element [HTML 5 spec] (from mike@w3.org on 2010-01-08)
  74. Re: ISSUE-93 (details): Return Details Element [HTML 5 spec] (from shelley.just@gmail.com on 2010-01-08)
  75. Re: ISSUE-93 (details): Return Details Element [HTML 5 spec] (from mjs@apple.com on 2010-01-08)
  76. Re: ISSUE-93 (details): Return Details Element [HTML 5 spec] (from rubys@intertwingly.net on 2010-01-08)
  77. Re: ISSUE-93 (details): Return Details Element [HTML 5 spec] (from mjs@apple.com on 2010-01-08)
  78. Re: ISSUE-93 (details): Return Details Element [HTML 5 spec] (from jonas@sicking.cc on 2010-01-08)
  79. Re: ISSUE-93 (details): Return Details Element [HTML 5 spec] (from shelley.just@gmail.com on 2010-01-08)
  80. Re: ISSUE-93 (details): Return Details Element [HTML 5 spec] (from jonas@sicking.cc on 2010-01-08)
  81. Re: ISSUE-93 (details): Return Details Element [HTML 5 spec] (from shelley.just@gmail.com on 2010-01-08)
  82. Re: ISSUE-93 (details): Return Details Element [HTML 5 spec] (from jonas@sicking.cc on 2010-01-08)
  83. Re: ISSUE-93 (details): Return Details Element [HTML 5 spec] (from shelley.just@gmail.com on 2010-01-08)
  84. Re: ISSUE-93 (details): Return Details Element [HTML 5 spec] (from shelley.just@gmail.com on 2010-01-08)
  85. Re: ISSUE-93 (details): Return Details Element [HTML 5 spec] (from shelley.just@gmail.com on 2010-01-08)
  86. Re: ISSUE-93 (details): Return Details Element [HTML 5 spec] (from ian@hixie.ch on 2010-01-08)
  87. [Bug 8379] Remove Section 4.11.1 The Details Element (from bugzilla@wiggum.w3.org on 2010-01-08)
  88. ISSUE-93 (details): Return Details Element [HTML 5 spec] (from sysbot+tracker@w3.org on 2010-01-08)

Related notes:

This issue was raised prematurely, and outside of the procedure in place for handling disagreement.

I have postponed the issue, though, as I do have expectations that it will be raised.

Shelley Powers, 8 Jan 2010, 18:35:26

Change Proposal:
http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/removedetails

Laura Carlson, 10 May 2010, 13:05:59

CLOSED by Working Group Decision.

Maciej Stachowiak, 1 Jul 2010, 04:42:17


Decision:
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2010Jun/att-0659/issue-93-decision.html

Laura Carlson, 1 Jul 2010, 13:17:32

Changelog:

Created issue 'Return Details Element' nickname details owned by Shelley Powers on product HTML 5 spec, description '(filed for Bruce Lawson)

I disagree with the removal of this element.

Although there were other difficulties (what element should be used instead of
the original legend proposal, for example) the element itself is highly useful.

An expanding/ collapsing area on the page is a very common requirement. I've
seen sites pull in a whole JavaScript library just to accomplish this
(presumably as the developer was unfamiliar with JS), which bloats the pagesize
for the user.

I've seen pages where the "details" information is set to display:none by
default, and the user cannot expand the information without JS, thereby making
the contents inaccessible if JS is not present.

Reinstating this element would be advantageous to developers, who wouldn't need
to learn JS to accomplish a common task; advantageous to users who would get an
accessibility bonus from having this behaviour natively in the browser.' non-public

Shelley Powers, 8 Jan 2010, 17:17:12

Status changed to 'postponed'

Shelley Powers, 8 Jan 2010, 18:35:26

title changed to 'Delete Details Element'

Shelley Powers, 9 Jan 2010, 15:23:29

Description changed to 'I understand the interest in having this element. Rather than having to use JS
to collapse or expand a section, the functionality can be built into the user
agent.

However, the use of JavaScript for the purpose of expanding or collapsing a
section is both well-defined and common among web applications. More
importantly, following the concept of progressive enhancement, these types of
expanding sections are expanded by default if script is turned off. To have a
section that is dynamic but not controlled by script is going to cause
confusion, particularly among people who turn scripting off and are assuming
that there are no "expando" sections in the web page.

In fact, I don't see how this element will make developing web applications
that much simpler. This type of functionality is trivial with JS.
'

Shelley Powers, 9 Jan 2010, 15:23:29

Status changed to 'raised'

Shelley Powers, 9 Jan 2010, 15:23:29

Status changed to 'open'

Sam Ruby, 12 Feb 2010, 20:20:52

Description changed to 'I understand the interest in having this element. Rather than having to use JS
to collapse or expand a section, the functionality can be built into the user
agent.

However, the use of JavaScript for the purpose of expanding or collapsing a
section is both well-defined and common among web applications. More
importantly, following the concept of progressive enhancement, these types of
expanding sections are expanded by default if script is turned off. To have a
section that is dynamic but not controlled by script is going to cause
confusion, particularly among people who turn scripting off and are assuming
that there are no "expando" sections in the web page.

In fact, I don't see how this element will make developing web applications
that much simpler. This type of functionality is trivial with JS.

HTML5-SPEC-SECTIONS [the-details-element]'

Shelley Powers, 12 Feb 2010, 23:43:44

Description changed to 'I understand the interest in having this element. Rather than having to use JS
to collapse or expand a section, the functionality can be built into the user
agent.

However, the use of JavaScript for the purpose of expanding or collapsing a
section is both well-defined and common among web applications. More
importantly, following the concept of progressive enhancement, these types of
expanding sections are expanded by default if script is turned off. To have a
section that is dynamic but not controlled by script is going to cause
confusion, particularly among people who turn scripting off and are assuming
that there are no "expando" sections in the web page.

In fact, I don't see how this element will make developing web applications
that much simpler. This type of functionality is trivial with JS.

Change Proposal:
http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/removedetails

HTML5-SPEC-SECTIONS [the-details-element]'

Laura Carlson, 10 May 2010, 13:05:59

Status changed to 'closed'

Maciej Stachowiak, 1 Jul 2010, 04:42:17


Paul Cotton <Paul.Cotton@microsoft.com>, Maciej Stachowiak <mjs@apple.com>, Sam Ruby <rubys@intertwingly.net>, Chairs, Michael[tm] Smith <mike@w3.org>, Staff Contact
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