ISSUE-144: <u> should be conforming

conforming-u

<u> should be conforming

State:
CLOSED
Product:
pre-LC1 HTML 5 spec
Raised by:
Henri Sivonen
Opened on:
2010-11-17
Description:
Escalated from http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10838

Currently, HTML5 obsoletes <u>. <u> should be conforming.

The element is interoperably implemented. It has a semantic use in Chinese (indicating proper nouns). In the context of the Latin script, the <u> element is the most appropriate element to generate for underline in applications that provide a MacWrite-style UI for editing HTML.

To avoid unnecessary complications for authors or authoring tool developers, HTML5 should permit <u> as conforming for marking up Chinese proper nouns or a phrase-level run of text that the author wants to present as underlined in the visual medium and to set apart from normal text on other media (in particular when using a WYSIWYG tool to generate the markup).

In bug 10838 it was both argued that CSS be used on one hand and that Unicode combining marks be used on the other hand. When the alternatives are on the level above HTML and on the layer below HTML, it seems inplausible that it would be inappropriate to put the feature on the HTML level. Furthermore, given the state of the art of editors, it's harder to use the Unicode combining mark than it is to use <u>. Also, using e.g. <i> and styling it to be underlined and not italicized (as suggested on the bug) is unsatisfactory. (Consider having to use <u> and style it as italicized bun not underlined to italicize Latin text!)

See also f2f minutes:
http://www.w3.org/2010/11/04-html-wg-minutes.html#item19
Related Actions Items:
No related actions
Related emails:
  1. RE: {agenda} HTML WG telecon 2011-05-12: Actions, New Issues, Closing Issues, TF reports, Last Call schedule (from Paul.Cotton@microsoft.com on 2011-05-11)
  2. {agenda} HTML WG telecon 2011-04-12: Actions, New Issues, Closing Issues, TF reports, Last Call schedule (from Paul.Cotton@microsoft.com on 2011-05-11)
  3. {agenda} HTML WG telecon 2011-04-13: Decisions, ISSUE-120 Reopen Request, ISSUE-129 Wording (from mjs@apple.com on 2011-04-13)
  4. Re: Working Group Decision on ISSUE-144 conforming-u (from Simetrical+w3c@gmail.com on 2011-04-08)
  5. Working Group Decision on ISSUE-144 conforming-u (from rubys@intertwingly.net on 2011-04-08)
  6. RE: {minutes} HTML WG telecon 2011-04-07: Issues, Surveys, Decisions and Publications (from adrianba@microsoft.com on 2011-04-07)
  7. {agenda} HTML WG telecon 2011-04-07: Issues, Surveys, Decisions and Publications (from Paul.Cotton@microsoft.com on 2011-04-06)
  8. {agenda} HTML WG telecon 2011-03-31: Issues, Publications, Surveys, Decisions, Task Force Reports (from rubys@intertwingly.net on 2011-03-30)
  9. ISSUE-144: conforming-u - Straw Poll for Objections (from Paul.Cotton@microsoft.com on 2011-03-27)
  10. Re: CfC: Close ISSUE-144 conforming-u by Amicable Resolution (from ian@hixie.ch on 2011-03-26)
  11. CfC: Close ISSUE-144 conforming-u by Amicable Resolution (from rubys@intertwingly.net on 2011-03-26)
  12. {agenda} HTML WG telecon 2011-03-24: Issues, surveys, decisions (from mjs@apple.com on 2011-03-23)
  13. RE: {minutes} HTML WG telecon 2011-03-17: Issues, surveys, decisions and task force reports (from adrianba@microsoft.com on 2011-03-17)
  14. {agenda} HTML WG telecon 2011-03-17: Issues, surveys, decisions and task force reports (from Paul.Cotton@microsoft.com on 2011-03-15)
  15. {minutes} HTML WG telecon 2011-03-03: Issues, Decisions, Task Force Reports, and Other Business (from Paul.Cotton@microsoft.com on 2011-03-04)
  16. RE: {minutes} HTML WG telecon 2011-03-03: Issues, Decisions, Task Force Reports, and Other Business (from adrianba@microsoft.com on 2011-03-03)
  17. {agenda} HTML WG telecon 2011-03-03: Issues, Decisions, Task Force Reports, and Other Business (from rubys@intertwingly.net on 2011-03-02)
  18. Re: ISSUE-144 (conforming-u): Chairs Solicit Proposals (from kennyluck@w3.org on 2011-02-25)
  19. ISSUE-144 conforming-u - Chairs Solicit Alternate Proposals or Counter-Proposals (from rubys@intertwingly.net on 2011-02-24)
  20. {minutes} HTML WG telecon 2011-02-24: Action items and Issues (from Paul.Cotton@microsoft.com on 2011-02-24)
  21. {agenda} HTML WG telecon 2011-02-24: Action items and Issues (from Paul.Cotton@microsoft.com on 2011-02-23)
  22. {minutes} HTML WG telecon 2011-02-17: Issues, handling of features, task force reports (from Paul.Cotton@microsoft.com on 2011-02-20)
  23. {agenda} HTML WG telecon 2011-02-17: Issues, handling of features, task force reports (from mjs@apple.com on 2011-02-17)
  24. ISSUE-144 (conforming-u): Call for revisions (from mjs@apple.com on 2011-02-17)
  25. {minutes} HTML WG telecon 2011-02-03: Issues, surveys (from Paul.Cotton@microsoft.com on 2011-02-03)
  26. {agenda} HTML WG telecon 2011-02-03: Issues, surveys (from mjs@apple.com on 2011-02-02)
  27. Re: ISSUE-144 (conforming-u): Chairs Solicit Proposals (from rubys@intertwingly.net on 2011-01-27)
  28. {minutes} HTML WG Telecon 2010-01-27: status of actions, new issues, closing items, new calls, charter status (from Paul.Cotton@microsoft.com on 2011-01-27)
  29. Fwd: Re: ISSUE-144 (conforming-u): Chairs Solicit Proposals (from kennyluck@w3.org on 2011-01-27)
  30. Re: ISSUE-144 (conforming-u): Chairs Solicit Proposals (from kennyluck@w3.org on 2011-01-27)
  31. Re: ISSUE-144 (conforming-u): Chairs Solicit Proposals (from kennyluck@w3.org on 2011-01-27)
  32. Re: ISSUE-144 (conforming-u): Chairs Solicit Proposals (from ian@hixie.ch on 2011-01-26)
  33. {agenda} HTML WG Telecon 2010-01-27: status of actions, new issues, closing items, new calls, charter status (from Paul.Cotton@microsoft.com on 2011-01-26)
  34. Re: ISSUE-144 (conforming-u): Chairs Solicit Proposals (from rubys@intertwingly.net on 2011-01-26)
  35. Re: ISSUE-144 (conforming-u): Chairs Solicit Proposals (from hsivonen@iki.fi on 2011-01-26)
  36. Re: ISSUE-144 (conforming-u): Chairs Solicit Proposals (from hsivonen@iki.fi on 2011-01-25)
  37. RE: {minutes} HTML WG Telecon 2010-01-20: status of actions, calls; task force reports (from adrianba@microsoft.com on 2011-01-20)
  38. {agenda} HTML WG Telecon 2010-01-20: status of actions, calls; task force reports (from rubys@intertwingly.net on 2011-01-18)
  39. {minutes} HTML WG Telecon 2010-12-16: status of actions, calls, new decisions, task force reports (from Paul.Cotton@microsoft.com on 2010-12-16)
  40. {agenda} HTML WG Telecon 2010-12-16: status of actions, calls, new decisions, task force reports (from Paul.Cotton@microsoft.com on 2010-12-16)
  41. {agenda} HTML WG Telecon 2010-12-16: status of actions, calls, new decisions, task force reports (from Paul.Cotton@microsoft.com on 2010-12-15)
  42. ISSUE-144 (conforming-u): Chairs Solicit Proposals (from Paul.Cotton@microsoft.com on 2010-12-13)
  43. {minutes} HTML WG Telecon 2010-11-18: status of actions, calls, issues, meeting schedule, timeline to LC status (from Paul.Cotton@microsoft.com on 2010-11-21)
  44. {agenda} HTML WG Telecon 2010-11-18: status of actions, calls, issues, meeting schedule, timeline to LC status (from Paul.Cotton@microsoft.com on 2010-11-17)
  45. ISSUE-144 (conforming-u): <u> should be conforming [HTML 5 spec] (from sysbot+tracker@w3.org on 2010-11-17)

Related notes:

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2011Apr/0212.html
http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker?from=6003&to=6004

Sam Ruby, 9 May 2011, 09:11:00

Changelog:

Created issue '<u> should be conforming' nickname conforming-u owned by Henri Sivonen on product HTML 5 spec, description 'Escalated from http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10838

Currently, HTML5 obsoletes <u>. <u> should be conforming.

The element is interoperably implemented. It has a semantic use in Chinese (indicating proper nouns). In the context of the Latin script, the <u> element is the most appropriate element to generate for underline in applications that provide a MacWrite-style UI for editing HTML.

To avoid unnecessary complications for authors or authoring tool developers, HTML5 should permit <u> as conforming for marking up Chinese proper nouns or a phrase-level run of text that the author wants to present as underlined in the visual medium and to set apart from normal text on other media (in particular when using a WYSIWYG tool to generate the markup).

In bug 10838 it was both argued that CSS be used on one hand and that Unicode combining marks be used on the other hand. When the alternatives are on the level above HTML and on the layer below HTML, it seems inplausible that it would be inappropriate to put the feature on the HTML level. Furthermore, given the state of the art of editors, it's harder to use the Unicode combining mark than it is to use <u>. Also, using e.g. <i> and styling it to be underlined and not italicized (as suggested on the bug) is unsatisfactory. (Consider having to use <u> and style it as italicized bun not underlined to italicize Latin text!)

See also f2f minutes:
http://www.w3.org/2010/11/04-html-wg-minutes.html#item19' non-public

Henri Sivonen, 17 Nov 2010, 14:09:51

Product changed to pre-LC1 HTML 5 spec

Sam Ruby, 29 Jan 2011, 18:26:57

Status changed to 'open'

Philippe Le H├ęgaret, 12 Feb 2011, 23:43:34

Status changed to 'closed'

Sam Ruby, 9 May 2011, 09:11:00


Paul Cotton <Paul.Cotton@microsoft.com>, Maciej Stachowiak <mjs@apple.com>, Sam Ruby <rubys@intertwingly.net>, Chairs, Michael[tm] Smith <mike@w3.org>, Staff Contact
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