ISSUE-130: allow tables to be used for layout purposes

table-layout

allow tables to be used for layout purposes

State:
CLOSED
Product:
pre-LC1 HTML 5 spec
Raised by:
Richard Schwerdtfeger
Opened on:
2010-10-12
Description:
escalated from Bug 10963 -Table prohibited from being used as a layout aid
http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10963

I am not satisfied with the this being closed, with a won't fix, because it was
in HTML 4. You cannot, with complete certainty, test that a table is being used
for layout and so much of the web uses tables for layout to ensure fidelity
across browsers. The entire Dojo library, gmail, and millions of other
applications would be non-compliant per this outdated assertion. We now have a
vehicle to state whether tables are used for layouts. Web applications also
have the ability to determine the device they are delivering to and can
compensate their rendering based on the device.

Also, the point in HTML 4 about having to perform horizontal scrolling would be
the case if you had a table that was used as an actual table.

From an accessibility perspective, the author has the ability to declare that a
table is being used for presentation. I see no point in including this
directive in HTML anymore as clearly the industry pays little or no attention
to this requirement.

I would close that longdesc was in HTML 5 too yet people are attempting to
remove it from the spec for not being used. Yet here, we have a clear case
where tables are used extensively for layout and Ian does not want to remove
it. The argument has no logical basis and is inconsistent with how developers
create web applications today.

HTML5-SPEC-SECTIONS [the-table-element]
Related Actions Items:
No related actions
Related emails:
  1. RE: {agenda} HTML WG telecon 2011-05-12: Actions, New Issues, Closing Issues, TF reports, Last Call schedule (from Paul.Cotton@microsoft.com on 2011-05-11)
  2. {agenda} HTML WG telecon 2011-04-12: Actions, New Issues, Closing Issues, TF reports, Last Call schedule (from Paul.Cotton@microsoft.com on 2011-05-11)
  3. Re: Working Group Decision on ISSUE-155 table-border (from xn--mlform-iua@xn--mlform-iua.no on 2011-04-17)
  4. [Bug 12325] New: Consequences of <table role=presentation> (layout tables) (from bugzilla@jessica.w3.org on 2011-03-17)
  5. ISSUE-130 layout-tables vs ISSUE-129 ARIA mapping (from xn--mlform-iua@xn--mlform-iua.no on 2011-03-16)
  6. Re: Working Group Decision on ISSUE-130: table-layout (from Simetrical+w3c@gmail.com on 2011-03-11)
  7. Re: Working Group Decision on ISSUE-130: table-layout (from rubys@intertwingly.net on 2011-03-11)
  8. Re: Working Group Decision on ISSUE-130: table-layout (from oedipus@hicom.net on 2011-03-10)
  9. Working Group Decision on ISSUE-130: table-layout (from rubys@intertwingly.net on 2011-03-10)
  10. {agenda} HTML WG telecon 2011-03-10: Action items, issues, surveys and decisions (from Paul.Cotton@microsoft.com on 2011-03-08)
  11. {minutes} HTML WG telecon 2011-03-03: Issues, Decisions, Task Force Reports, and Other Business (from Paul.Cotton@microsoft.com on 2011-03-04)
  12. RE: {minutes} HTML WG telecon 2011-03-03: Issues, Decisions, Task Force Reports, and Other Business (from adrianba@microsoft.com on 2011-03-03)
  13. {agenda} HTML WG telecon 2011-03-03: Issues, Decisions, Task Force Reports, and Other Business (from rubys@intertwingly.net on 2011-03-02)
  14. {minutes} HTML WG telecon 2011-02-24: Action items and Issues (from Paul.Cotton@microsoft.com on 2011-02-24)
  15. {agenda} HTML WG telecon 2011-02-24: Action items and Issues (from Paul.Cotton@microsoft.com on 2011-02-23)
  16. ISSUE-130: table-layout - Straw Poll for Objections (from Paul.Cotton@microsoft.com on 2011-02-21)
  17. {minutes} HTML WG telecon 2011-02-17: Issues, handling of features, task force reports (from Paul.Cotton@microsoft.com on 2011-02-20)
  18. {agenda} HTML WG telecon 2011-02-17: Issues, handling of features, task force reports (from mjs@apple.com on 2011-02-17)
  19. RE: {minutes} HTML WG telecon 2011-02-03: Issues, survey, A11y TF mini-report, Bug 11984 (from adrianba@microsoft.com on 2011-02-10)
  20. {agenda} HTML WG telecon 2011-02-03: Issues, survey, A11y TF mini-report, Bug 11984 (from rubys@intertwingly.net on 2011-02-09)
  21. {minutes} HTML WG telecon 2011-02-03: Issues, surveys (from Paul.Cotton@microsoft.com on 2011-02-03)
  22. {agenda} HTML WG telecon 2011-02-03: Issues, surveys (from mjs@apple.com on 2011-02-02)
  23. Re: ISSUE-155 table-border: Chairs Solicit Proposals (from ian@hixie.ch on 2011-01-18)
  24. Re: ISSUE-130 table-layout - Chairs Solicit Alternate Proposals or Counter-Proposals (from xn--mlform-iua@xn--mlform-iua.no on 2011-01-15)
  25. Re: ISSUE-130 table-layout - Chairs Solicit Alternate Proposals or Counter-Proposals (from bhawkeslewis@googlemail.com on 2011-01-15)
  26. Re: ISSUE-130 table-layout - Chairs Solicit Alternate Proposals or Counter-Proposals (from xn--mlform-iua@xn--mlform-iua.no on 2011-01-15)
  27. Fwd: ISSUE-130 table-layout - Chairs Solicit Alternate Proposals or Counter-Proposals (from doug_b_jones@me.com on 2011-01-14)
  28. Re: ISSUE-130 table-layout - Chairs Solicit Alternate Proposals or Counter-Proposals (from xn--mlform-iua@xn--mlform-iua.no on 2011-01-14)
  29. Re: ISSUE-130 table-layout - Chairs Solicit Alternate Proposals or Counter-Proposals (from doug_b_jones@me.com on 2011-01-14)
  30. Re: ISSUE-130 table-layout - Chairs Solicit Alternate Proposals or Counter-Proposals (from laura.lee.carlson@gmail.com on 2011-01-14)
  31. Fwd: ISSUE-130 table-layout - Chairs Solicit Alternate Proposals or Counter-Proposals (from doug_b_jones@me.com on 2011-01-14)
  32. ISSUE-130 table-layout - Chairs Solicit Alternate Proposals or Counter-Proposals (from mjs@apple.com on 2011-01-12)
  33. {agenda} HTML WG Telecon 2010-12-16: status of actions, calls, new decisions, task force reports (from mjs@apple.com on 2011-01-12)
  34. {minutes} HTML WG Telecon 2010-12-16: status of actions, calls, new decisions, task force reports (from Paul.Cotton@microsoft.com on 2010-12-16)
  35. {minutes} HTML WG Telecon 2010-12-09: status of actions, calls, new decisions (from Paul.Cotton@microsoft.com on 2010-12-16)
  36. {agenda} HTML WG Telecon 2010-12-16: status of actions, calls, new decisions, task force reports (from Paul.Cotton@microsoft.com on 2010-12-16)
  37. {agenda} HTML WG Telecon 2010-12-16: status of actions, calls, new decisions, task force reports (from Paul.Cotton@microsoft.com on 2010-12-15)
  38. RE: ISSUE-130 table-layout: Chairs Solicit Proposals (from Paul.Cotton@microsoft.com on 2010-12-13)
  39. Re: {agenda} HTML WG Telecon 2010-12-09: status of actions, calls, new decisions (from mjs@apple.com on 2010-12-09)
  40. {agenda} HTML WG Telecon 2010-12-09: status of actions, calls, new decisions (from mjs@apple.com on 2010-12-08)
  41. RE: {minutes} HTML WG Telecon 2010-12-02: status, task force reports, deadlines and publications, meeting schedule (from adrianba@microsoft.com on 2010-12-02)
  42. {agenda} HTML WG Telecon 2010-12-02: status, task force reports, deadlines and publications, meeting schedule (from rubys@intertwingly.net on 2010-12-01)
  43. {agenda} HTML WG Telecon 2010-11-11: status of actions, calls, issues, Task Force reports (from mjs@apple.com on 2010-11-10)
  44. ISSUE-130 table-layout: Chairs Solicit Proposals (from mjs@apple.com on 2010-11-10)
  45. {minutes} HTML WG F2F minutes, Lyon, France, Nov 4-5 Part 1 (from Paul.Cotton@microsoft.com on 2010-11-09)
  46. RE: {minutes} HTML WG Telecon 2010-10-14 actions, status of calls, issues and bugs, heartbeat drafts, task force reports (from adrianba@microsoft.com on 2010-10-14)
  47. {agenda} HTML WG Telecon 2010-10-14 actions, status of calls, issues and bugs, heartbeat drafts, task force reports (from Paul.Cotton@microsoft.com on 2010-10-13)
  48. ISSUE-130 (table-layout): allow tables to be used for layout purposes [HTML 5 spec] (from sysbot+tracker@w3.org on 2010-10-12)

Related notes:

Closed without prejudice due to lack of Change Proposal.

Maciej Stachowiak, 14 Dec 2010, 03:28:45

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2010Dec/0132.html

Sam Ruby, 15 Dec 2010, 01:06:31

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2011Mar/0245.html
http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker?from=6005&to=600

Sam Ruby, 9 May 2011, 09:09:10

Changelog:

Created issue 'allow tables to be used for layout purposes' nickname table-layout owned by Richard Schwerdtfeger on product HTML 5 spec, description 'escalated from Bug 10963 -Table prohibited from being used as a layout aid
http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10963

I am not satisfied with the this being closed, with a won't fix, because it was
in HTML 4. You cannot, with complete certainty, test that a table is being used
for layout and so much of the web uses tables for layout to ensure fidelity
across browsers. The entire Dojo library, gmail, and millions of other
applications would be non-compliant per this outdated assertion. We now have a
vehicle to state whether tables are used for layouts. Web applications also
have the ability to determine the device they are delivering to and can
compensate their rendering based on the device.

Also, the point in HTML 4 about having to perform horizontal scrolling would be
the case if you had a table that was used as an actual table.

From an accessibility perspective, the author has the ability to declare that a
table is being used for presentation. I see no point in including this
directive in HTML anymore as clearly the industry pays little or no attention
to this requirement.

I would close that longdesc was in HTML 5 too yet people are attempting to
remove it from the spec for not being used. Yet here, we have a clear case
where tables are used extensively for layout and Ian does not want to remove
it. The argument has no logical basis and is inconsistent with how developers
create web applications today.' non-public

Steve Faulkner, 12 Oct 2010, 15:11:03

Status changed to 'closed'

Maciej Stachowiak, 14 Dec 2010, 03:28:45

Status changed to 'open'

Sam Ruby, 15 Dec 2010, 01:06:31

Description changed to 'escalated from Bug 10963 -Table prohibited from being used as a layout aid
http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10963

I am not satisfied with the this being closed, with a won't fix, because it was
in HTML 4. You cannot, with complete certainty, test that a table is being used
for layout and so much of the web uses tables for layout to ensure fidelity
across browsers. The entire Dojo library, gmail, and millions of other
applications would be non-compliant per this outdated assertion. We now have a
vehicle to state whether tables are used for layouts. Web applications also
have the ability to determine the device they are delivering to and can
compensate their rendering based on the device.

Also, the point in HTML 4 about having to perform horizontal scrolling would be
the case if you had a table that was used as an actual table.

From an accessibility perspective, the author has the ability to declare that a
table is being used for presentation. I see no point in including this
directive in HTML anymore as clearly the industry pays little or no attention
to this requirement.

I would close that longdesc was in HTML 5 too yet people are attempting to
remove it from the spec for not being used. Yet here, we have a clear case
where tables are used extensively for layout and Ian does not want to remove
it. The argument has no logical basis and is inconsistent with how developers
create web applications today.

HTML5-SPEC-SECTIONS [the-table-element]'

Steve Faulkner, 25 Jan 2011, 11:25:04

Product changed to pre-LC1 HTML 5 spec

Sam Ruby, 29 Jan 2011, 18:22:25

Status changed to 'closed'

Sam Ruby, 9 May 2011, 09:09:10


Paul Cotton <Paul.Cotton@microsoft.com>, Maciej Stachowiak <mjs@apple.com>, Sam Ruby <rubys@intertwingly.net>, Chairs, Michael[tm] Smith <mike@w3.org>, Staff Contact
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