Chatlog 2012-06-29

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15:07:33 <PhilA> Topic: Intro to meeting
15:07:38 <PhilA> scribe: PhilA
15:07:42 <PhilA> chair: JeanneHolm
15:07:43 <PhilA> Guest: Bernadette Hyland
15:07:44 <PhilA> Guest: Bobbi Martin
15:07:45 <PhilA> Guest: Owen A
15:07:46 <PhilA> Guest: Martin Murillo
15:08:05 <PhilA> JeanneHolm: Introduces roadmap (See wiki main page) http://www.w3.org/egov/wiki/Main_Page
15:08:22 <PhilA> zakim, MartinM is MartinMurillo
15:08:22 <Zakim> +MartinMurillo; got it
15:08:45 <Zakim> + +55115509aaii
15:09:07 <PhilA> JeanneHolm: Folks have made a number of suggestions since we bagn looking at the roadmap in November
15:09:25 <Vagner Diniz> Vagner Diniz has joined #egov
15:09:46 <PhilA> JeanneHolm: We're trying to reach out to lots of people. Lots of activity in Australia anda Asia. It's been hard to get involved because of time zones
15:10:29 <PhilA> ... Tomasz joining as co-chair concentrated minds on this issue as he is in Macau. hence now two weekly cyle with alternate meetings in Euasian-friendly time and Atlantic times
15:10:35 <PhilA> ... will cover same topics
15:10:45 <PhilA> ... may have same speakers depending on time zones
15:11:12 <PhilA> ... we'll have notes as usual and then I and Tomasz plan to merge those
15:11:49 <PhilA> ... we'd like to record the audio these meetings but there are legal problems with this around the world but we may at least record the presentations
15:13:17 <BobbiMartin> BobbiMartin has joined #egov
15:13:19 <PhilA> zakim, aahh is BrandN
15:13:19 <Zakim> +BrandN; got it
15:13:20 <citizencontact> Can you post the web page where the protocols for using IRC, especially for potential scribes?
15:14:14 <ed_> q+
15:14:54 <Brian Handspicker> Two alternating meetings a month is an excellent idea! Approval.
15:15:27 <PhilA> ack ed_
15:15:46 <Owen> Owen has joined #egov
15:15:53 <PhilA> ed_: I notice that the WIki says that the group is open to the public. I'm used to W3C meetings being more limited#
15:16:18 <PhilA> ed_: If you follow the get involved link it says the discussion will be public but is actual participation open too?
15:16:31 <PhilA> zakim, OwnA is Owen
15:16:31 <Zakim> +Owen; got it
15:16:41 <Bernadette Hyland> @Ed, W3C Interest Groups are open to the public.
15:16:52 <ed_> Bernadette Hyland: ok great
15:16:54 <PhilA> ed_: I'm asking because I'm hoping it's true - i.e. that these meetings are open
15:17:07 <Bernadette Hyland> Working Groups operate as you described, have to be a member or accepted invited expert.
15:17:19 <PhilA> JeanneHolm: Explains rules for WG membership rules (be a member or an Invited Expert)
15:17:25 <ed_> Contributing as a "a member of the eGov IG", which is a W3C term indicating that a participant is satisfying the participation requirements of the W3C Process and the Interest Group's charter - http://www.w3.org/egov/IG/participation
15:17:50 <PhilA> JeanneHolm: I can participate as NASA (member) but not as an individual unless I get invited as an Invited Expert.
15:17:53 <Bernadette Hyland> @Ed, my understanding is that W3C IGs still register so that they get added to the public IG mailing list.
15:18:06 <PhilA> JeanneHolm: Is an Interest Group and operates under a broader capability
15:18:54 <PhilA> ed_: That's good to hear. The language on the IG page is less open so that may need looking at
15:19:04 <PhilA> q+
15:19:34 <PhilA> JeanneHolm: I'll double check on the language etc.
15:19:41 <PhilA> ack PhilA
15:20:19 <Zakim> + +1.718.403.aajj
15:21:22 <PhilA> zakim, aajj is Andrew Nicholson
15:21:22 <Zakim> I don't understand 'aajj is Andrew Nicholson', PhilA
15:21:28 <PhilA> zakim, aajj is AndrewNicholson
15:21:28 <Zakim> +AndrewNicholson; got it
15:21:43 <PhilA> Topic: Basic Sections of the Roadmap
15:22:02 <Andrew> Andrew has joined #egov
15:22:07 <PhilA> JeanneHolm: We don't expect that we got the roadmap 100% correct. So comments and corrections are welcome
15:22:21 <PhilA> zakim, AndrewNicholson is Andrew
15:22:21 <Zakim> +Andrew; got it
15:22:33 <PhilA> JeanneHolm: We want to encourage discussion around questions
15:22:48 <PhilA> ... and we've framed the meetings to try and make that happen
15:23:05 <PhilA> ... we tend to talk about open data a lot but eGov is about more than that so we've taken a step back from that
15:23:08 <AndrewNicklin> AndrewNicklin has joined #egov
15:23:15 <PhilA> ... what is the value proposition?
15:23:29 <PhilA> ... why is it important to provide eServices, OGD etc
15:23:37 <PhilA> ... who and where does that implementation occur?
15:23:45 <PhilA> ... what is that we're defining governments to do
15:24:19 <PhilA> JeanneHolm: Looking how govs can set up maintain services. Probably end up speaking a lot about policy
15:24:40 <PhilA> ... e.g. in Poland, more than a year's work gone into legislation to ensure that OGD is sustainable
15:24:47 <PhilA> JeanneHolm: How does that sound so far?
15:24:53 <PhilA> Cue to everyone!
15:24:56 <Brian Handspicker> Sounds great!
15:25:09 <PhilA> JeanneHolm: The other area that people talk about... 
15:25:12 <BobbiMartin> q+
15:25:21 <PhilA> ... and this came up at the Commssions' Digital Agenda meetings last week
15:25:27 <gdick> policy new yesterday : http://www.cabinetoffice.gov.uk/resource-library/open-data-white-paper-unleashing-potential
15:25:43 <PhilA> JeanneHolm: We all have some examples of things that work have worked well
15:26:13 <Owen> Whatever the group decides to try to do, my interest is in documenting it (goals, objectives, and stakeholders) in StratML Part 2, Performance Plan/Report, format.
15:26:22 <PhilA> JeanneHolm: I was hearing about a site through which you an report broken pavements/roads etc.
15:26:39 <PhilA> ... these might end up on slideshare but that's not very re-usable
15:27:08 <PhilA> ... we want to start to create a repository where we can share examples of good eGov, Open Data, services etc
15:27:23 <PhilA> ack BobbiMartin
15:27:46 <PhilA> BobbiMartin: I was curious. Are these policies for government as a whole or are we talking about state, federal etc?
15:28:03 <PhilA> JeanneHolm: I know a lot of folk on the line are involved in municipal and local level
15:28:12 <PhilA> .. this is for gov at any level
15:28:20 <PhilA> ... incl. tribal government in US
15:28:27 <Brian Handspicker> q+
15:28:28 <PhilA> ... also lots of academics in the group too
15:28:50 <PhilA> ... how can services and so on be supplied to govs. What should hte research agenda be?
15:29:05 <PhilA> ack Brian Handspicker
15:29:33 <PhilA> Brian Handspicker: Not sure if this is the right place in the agenda. We have spoken a lot of open linked data in the past. AS we've noted in the past, there are a lot of otehr types of data
15:29:52 <PhilA> Brian Handspicker: There are 3 others at least: Citizen sensitive data (e.g. tax returns)
15:30:01 <PhilA> ... should be able to access one's own but not public
15:30:13 <PhilA> ... inter agency data across al types of hurisdictions
15:30:20 <PhilA> ... and intra-agency data
15:30:31 <ed_> +1 to that
15:30:34 <Bernadette Hyland> s/hurisdictions/juridictions
15:30:43 <Bernadette Hyland> q+
15:30:49 <PhilA> ... sinter agency data across al types of hurisdictions/inter agency data across all types of jurisdictions/
15:31:17 <PhilA> JeanneHolm: I like the ida of looking at intra-agency sharing as well as inter-agency sharing
15:31:38 <PhilA> JeanneHolm: We don't sop standards but we're in a good place to talk about
15:31:46 <PhilA> Brian Handspicker: I continue to champion 1 - 3 start data
15:31:57 <PhilA> ack Bernadette Hyland
15:32:11 <PhilA> Bernadette Hyland: Feeling goaded. I co-chair the Gov Linked Data WG
15:32:34 <PhilA> Bernadette Hyland: In response to Brian, the types of data you describe is often in silos (relational databases)
15:33:00 <Brian Handspicker> q+
15:33:09 <PhilA> ... and the best way to fix that is to link the data in a standards compliant format. And that's an excellent way to share data intra and inter agency
15:33:19 <PhilA> .. it can be done privately as well as publicly
15:33:31 <PhilA> ... linked data is not equivalent to open data
15:33:51 <PhilA> ... and yes we spend time on it, vocabularies etc. but the principles apply in different ways
15:33:57 <MartinMurillo> q+
15:34:17 <PhilA> ... take a look at the GLD and consider joining or at least joining mailing list
15:34:34 <Bernadette Hyland> W3C Government Linked Data Working Group main page, see http://www.w3.org/2011/gld/wiki/Main_Page
15:34:47 <PhilA> JeanneHolm: I'd like to come back to talling about the connections between the IG and the GLD WG
15:35:06 <PhilA> Brian Handspicker: I'm fully supportive of RDF and everything W3C does 
15:35:11 <Bernadette Hyland> The focus is on getting governments to use W3C standards to exchange structured data using the RDF family of standards.
15:35:21 <PhilA> ... I'm working with Web Services, XML data etc.
15:36:01 <Owen> Sec. 10 of the GPRA Modernization Act requires U.S. fed agencies to publish their strategic and performance plans and reports in machine-readable format.
15:36:02 <PhilA> Brian Handspicker: My goal is not to pick any one religious perspective, rather that as exciting as linked data is, we need to pull the data out of the silos in whatever format
15:36:02 <Bernadette Hyland> Structured data is good, I'm not picky about its representation because it can then be exchanged & shared with others.
15:36:11 <ed_> Brian Handspicker: well said
15:36:13 <PhilA> ack MartinMurillo
15:36:21 <PhilA> ack Brian Handspicker
15:36:35 <Owen> I understand OMB may allow agencies to publish their plans/reports in any machine-readable format they choose.
15:36:40 <PhilA> MartinMurillo: Open data might be a bit scary to certain culture
15:37:14 <PhilA> MartinMurillo: Diff levels of gov sector use diff systems from paper to relational databases
15:37:35 <Owen> Might this group be interested in making suggestions to OMB and other agencies on how best to publish their strategic and performance plans and reports?
15:37:37 <PhilA> MartinMurillo: I think we need better definitions
15:38:22 <PhilA> JeanneHolm: Recaps (line was bad).
15:38:46 <PhilA> MartinMurillo: The term Open Government Data is too technical for some governemnts. We can perhaps provide mor general definitions tailored for the context
15:39:02 <PhilA> MartinMurillo: They may have the data in the databases but they don't necessarily think of opening it
15:39:15 <PhilA> MartinMurillo: We might want to offer a more global definitions
15:39:25 <PhilA> ... so I;m asking for a more global context
15:39:29 <Vagner Diniz> While GLD WG is more concerned to data representation e-gov IG could bring up a broader discussion on open data such as value chain, impact, policy ec.
15:39:39 <PhilA> PhilA: Notes that a lot of MartinMurillo's work has been done in S America
15:40:20 <PhilA> JeanneHolm: It might be worth defining those aspects before we get into the details. W3C can get a bit techie (who knew?)
15:40:49 <PhilA> q?
15:41:08 <PhilA> JeanneHolm: OK, we'll get back to the roadmap.
15:41:28 <PhilA> JeanneHolm: So where does eGov fit in? Is this local, national, internat?
15:41:45 <PhilA> JeanneHolm: We wanted to look at the idea of local gov objectives, maybe city government
15:42:00 <PhilA> .. depending on your structure, your perspective will vary enormously
15:42:23 <PhilA> ... the different approaches to social media are a good example - whether they're seen as a one way or two way channel
15:42:42 <olyerickson> olyerickson has joined #egov
15:42:49 <PhilA> ... I'd like to see the sharing of examples so govs can see what others are doing. No for 'an exemplar' but these are some things that are going on
15:44:23 <PhilA> JeanneHolm: There were discussions around multingualism in Brussels last week...
15:44:33 <PhilA> Apologires I missed some stuff there. I have kids runing around
15:45:16 <Zakim> +??P3
15:45:25 <PhilA> JeanneHolm: Also, yes, let's look at the technology too... Bernadette?
15:45:27 <olyerickson> zakim, ??p3 is me
15:45:27 <Zakim> +olyerickson; got it
15:45:39 <olyerickson> mute me
15:45:46 <olyerickson> zakim, mute me
15:45:46 <Zakim> olyerickson should now be muted
15:45:56 <PhilA> Bernadette Hyland: Sets out a bit about how W3C works...
15:47:38 <PhilA> ... describes chartering process for WGs
15:47:53 <PhilA> ... describes how an Interest Group (like this) opeates
15:48:10 <PhilA> ... IG groups outputs can then feed into the standards process
15:48:59 <PhilA> .. how we use things can typically become an IG. The Health Care and Life SCiences Interest Group is very active for example. But it's about using the tech rather than developing something new. But a Working Group might emerge if it is required
15:51:05 <ed_> html5 group ... :)
15:51:14 <PhilA> JeanneHolm: So. If we felt it was necessary to have a new Recommendation for a new standard then we can't do it but we an reach out to the relevant group (if there is one) and see if we can get it done there.
15:51:21 <PhilA> PhilA: Shhhh ed_ !
15:51:38 <PhilA> q+
15:51:50 <Bernadette Hyland> q+
15:52:14 <PhilA> JeanneHolm: There are many members of this group who are also members of working groups
15:52:21 <PhilA> ack me
15:52:23 <gdick> how about getting data out of silo's ...a large shallow pile is not good
15:53:01 <gdick> q+
15:53:11 <JeanneHolm> PhilA: Many Working Groups produce a best practice and/or a technical standard.  Not all have to be technical recommendations.
15:53:25 <MartinMurillo> q+
15:53:26 <ed_> PhilA: an IG can write Notes right?
15:53:41 <olyerickson> PhilA: Not always about creating new things in/new ways to use angle brackets, sometimes about how to use what's there
15:53:58 <PhilA> Bernadette Hyland: We're working on vocabularies in the GLD WG but the bulk of what we're doing is best practices around how a data curator might go about getting the data out into the public
15:54:11 <PhilA> PhilA: Yes, IGs can produce Notes ed_
15:54:24 <olyerickson> Bernadette Hyland: Membership in WG's not always highly technical
15:55:02 <olyerickson> * often stakeholders from gov, business, etc to whom WG work product critical
15:55:13 <PhilA> Bernadette Hyland: IGs often come up with use cases and they can be very important and helpful
15:55:45 <PhilA> Bernadette Hyland: If someone wanted to take the time to create a use case/problem and then feed into the GLD brains trust - that would be good.
15:55:48 <PhilA> ack gdick
15:55:57 <josema> josema has joined #egov
15:56:00 <Brand> Brand has joined #egov
15:56:00 <Bernadette Hyland> ack Bernadette Hyland
15:56:18 <josema> josema has left #egov
15:56:21 <Bernadette Hyland> +1
15:56:27 <PhilA> gdick: I just wanted to highlight the data silo problem. It's not unique to eGov. Getting the data out and spreading it on the floor without structure is to be avoided I'd say
15:56:39 <PhilA> gdick: That's a unique problem to eGiv and we should address it
15:56:46 <PhilA> s/eGiv/eGov/
15:56:48 <PhilA> ack MartinMurillo
15:58:03 <PhilA> PhilA: Can I please ask MartinMurillo to type your comment into the IRC as I missed most of it (poor line I'm afraid)
15:58:55 <citizencontact>   I think that we should continue the work on "notes" that help to explain to policy people how to better use technology to improve government practices without all the jargon.
15:58:56 <PhilA> JeanneHolm: If we can be one of the authoritative integration points we don't necessarily need to have all the unique info but somewhere that people can find examples that can help in policy exchange etc.
15:59:18 <olyerickson> JeanneHolm: Perfect feedback, thanks!
15:59:19 <PhilA> JeanneHolm: Thank you. This is the kind of feedback we need today and in the coming weeks
15:59:30 <Brand> Three new activities to mention before going to another call: Killer Semantic Web Application (Semantic MedLine on the new Cray Graph Computer) for the Federal Big Data Senior Steering Group; and Data as a First Class Citizen (Data Science and Journalism) for IC, OSTP, NIST OASIS, and OMG for Audit and Analytic Standards for Open Data Sites
15:59:46 <PhilA> JeanneHolm: The format that we're planning is to focus on specific areas each month and we should have a schedule out soon
16:00:25 <PhilA> JeanneHolm: So if you have a good example, say a policy around social media and where social media has made a difference, that would be good
16:00:39 <PhilA> ... and maybe problems and how it was solved (incl. commercial companies)
16:00:57 <citizencontact> The more we can do to improve how geeks can speak up to make changes without sounding like machine code, the more likely to have real implementations.
16:01:02 <PhilA> ... idea is that Tomasz and I will organise these each month and come up with something tangible each month. Case studies, examples
16:01:42 <PhilA> ... someone might have written up a case study or done a presentation. We may then have to make it into a case study.
16:02:01 <MartinMurillo> Following what Phil  and other said,  I suggest to create a standard/document repository to put the work aready done on the various issues; this will allow to be more efficient.  for instance there's work in policy modeling (crossover) and I wonder whether there's the same documentation/map coming from other governments
16:02:08 <PhilA> JeanneHolm: people also asking for a directory. Who in government X is working in area Y?
16:02:20 <Zakim> -BrandN
16:02:25 <PhilA> ... a community directory could be very useful in this space
16:02:31 <Bernadette Hyland> @PhilA and @Jeanne, thank you all.  I have to drop off for another call.  Good discussion, glad these calls are going again.
16:02:37 <Zakim> -Bernadette Hyland
16:02:53 <PhilA> JeanneHolm: Something that came up in Brussels is the area of prcurement
16:02:54 <citizencontact> Yes, procurement is bound by policy. 
16:03:28 <MartinMurillo> 15-20% of nations GDP goes to  procurement; what about eGov procurement? 
16:03:44 <PhilA> JeanneHolm: When I was doing virtual worlds work at NASA, I had to go to the procurement office and say I was buying a virtual island in the caribbean - an unusal conversation 
16:04:01 <citizencontact> and policy should be talked about in ways that non-technical policy government administrators and the public and participate in the conversation.
16:04:08 <PhilA> JeanneHolm: eProcurement can potentially increase efficiency so we'll have that as a future topic
16:04:17 <PhilA> rrsage, make logs public
16:04:23 <PhilA> rrsagent, make logs public
16:04:36 <PhilA> JeanneHolm: And we'd like to get you comments on all that?
16:04:43 <MartinMurillo> Government data centers and infrastructure + maintenance  increase eprocurement very much 
16:04:51 <PhilA> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:04:51 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/06/29-egov-minutes.html PhilA
16:05:22 <PhilA> JeanneHolm: So I want to encourage everyone to look at the roadmap and make suggestions on the topics and the approach. eProcurement and CKAN havea come up as ideas
16:05:40 <PhilA> ... then we'll put out a call for speakers about a month ahead of each meeting
16:05:53 <PhilA> ... you should see this building out dynamically over the coming months
16:05:53 <citizencontact> For example, all the "Cloud" and previous Web 2.0 are jargon words that mask real issues. HTML5 may be a great technical standard, but explaining how policy outcomes are possible is much harder.
16:06:05 <PhilA> JeanneHolm: Some of the people from teh LinekdIn group have offered to speak about various things
16:06:36 <PhilA> .. I know Owen has offered a talk, Andrea Perego can talk about INSPIRE (EU environment/geospatial data)
16:07:15 <PhilA> JeanneHolm: This is a bit of an experiment to balance the time zones
16:07:35 <citizencontact> Also, I would be happy to discuss legislative document and data standards. OASIS has a new group that is working on a standard XML for legislation (Akomo Ntoso). I can also bring the creators of it to our group.
16:07:45 <PhilA> ... Tomasz has helped bring more structure and so the roadmap really is the key thing to do.
16:08:22 <PhilA> JeanneHolm: Tomasz and I are always open to suggestions
16:08:27 <citizencontact> Daniel Bennett, daniel@citizencontact.com
16:08:33 <PhilA> JeanneHolm: Any more comments?
16:08:34 <Brian Handspicker> Thank you Jeanne and Phil!
16:08:36 <olyerickson> Thanks Jeanne!
16:08:48 <PhilA> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:08:48 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/06/29-egov-minutes.html PhilA
16:09:51 <citizencontact> I would recommend on the call to get the scribe. I would do next time but may be away. But do please post scribe notes.
16:09:52 <PhilA> JeanneHolm: talks about scribing
16:10:19 <PhilA> ed_: I was curious whether you and Tomasz have talked about integration with IETF?
16:10:41 <Brian Handspicker> Let's not forget relations with NIEM
16:10:55 <citizencontact> and OASIS
16:11:03 <BobbiMartin> Awesome meeting/discussion. This was my first. I'm excited to see what is to come. Thanks!
16:11:05 <olyerickson> Point of correction: W3C doesn't create "standards," only "recommendations..."
16:11:47 <JeanneHolm> PhilA: W3C has good connections with the IETF, ISO, OGC, OASIS, IEEE, NIEM--both formally and informally.  Is there something you have in mind specifically?
16:11:50 <Owen> If anyone identifies objectives that the W3C could/should be pursuing with other SDOs, I will be happy to document them in StratML format.
16:12:03 <JeanneHolm> Thanks, Owen.
16:13:03 <PhilA> JeanneHolm: Anything else?
16:13:24 <olyerickson> Thanks again, Jeanne!
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