Difference between revisions of "Chatlog 2010-04-22 Data Catalog Vocabulary"

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<sandro> chair: cygri
 
<sandro> chair: cygri
 
<sandro> scribe: sandro
 
<sandro> scribe: sandro
<sandro> Present: Cory_Casanave,  David_James, Ed_Summers, Fadi_Maali, George_Thomas, Martín_Álvarez, Richard_Cyganiak, Sandro_Hawke, Vassilios_Peristeras, Li_Ding, Brand_Niemann
+
<sandro> Present: Cory_Casanave,  David_James, Ed_Summers, Fadi_Maali, George_Thomas, Martín_Álvarez, Richard_Cyganiak, Sandro_Hawke, Vassilios_Peristeras, Li_Ding, Brand_Niemann,
 
15:10:46 <li> hi this is Li Ding from RPI
 
15:10:46 <li> hi this is Li Ding from RPI
 
15:11:02 <li> I cannot join the telecon as I have a conflict telecon right now
 
15:11:02 <li> I cannot join the telecon as I have a conflict telecon right now

Latest revision as of 22:35, 25 April 2010

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<sandro> Guest: Kate Geyer
<sandro> Guest: Erik (dret) Wilde
<sandro> Guest: Jon Phipps
<sandro> Guest: Peter Krantz
<sandro> Guest: Luigi Montanez
<sandro> Guest: Rich Wolverton
<sandro> Guest: Niklas (lindstream) Lindström
<sandro> Guest: William (ww) Waites
<sandro> Guest: Dan (dan) Thomas
<sandro> Guest: Dan (danbri) Brickley
<sandro> chair: cygri
<sandro> scribe: sandro
<sandro> Present: Cory_Casanave,  David_James, Ed_Summers, Fadi_Maali, George_Thomas, Martín_Álvarez, Richard_Cyganiak, Sandro_Hawke, Vassilios_Peristeras, Li_Ding, Brand_Niemann,
15:10:46 <li> hi this is Li Ding from RPI
15:11:02 <li> I cannot join the telecon as I have a conflict telecon right now
15:11:24 <li> but I will stay in IRC, would there be anyone help scribing the conversation?
15:11:44 <sandro> topic: Introductions (several new people)
15:11:46 <Zakim> -Cory
15:12:09 <Zakim> +??P10
15:12:10 <sandro> sandro
15:12:12 <sandro> david james
15:12:39 <Cory> Zakim, ??p10 is Cory
15:12:39 <Zakim> +Cory; got it
15:12:40 <sandro> luigi
15:12:42 <sandro> Martín Álvarez
15:13:29 <sandro> George Thomas
15:13:59 <RichW> Rich Wolverton from Comm of Mass Supporting ODI
15:14:01 <sandro> Rich_Wolverton
15:14:52 <sandro> Erik Wilde
15:15:27 <sandro> Richard Cyganiak, 
15:15:44 <sandro> Fadi Maali
15:16:01 <sandro> Kate Geyer
15:16:24 <sandro> Jon Phipps
15:16:47 <sandro> Cory Casanave
15:16:56 <vassilios> Vassilios Peristeras from the DERI team
15:17:03 <sandro> Brand Niemann
15:17:28 <sandro> Niklas Lindström
15:17:50 <sandro> Dan Thomas, DC
15:19:13 <sandro> William (ww) Waites
15:19:54 <sandro> next scribe:  Ed Summers
15:20:16 <sandro> agenda: http://www.w3.org/egov/wiki/Data_Catalog_Vocabulary/2010-04-22
15:20:33 <sandro> topic: Presentations of existing work 
15:21:21 <sandro> cygri: please keep it short -- 3 to 5 minutes, pointers to more details
15:21:27 <edsu> http://www.w3.org/egov/wiki/Data_Catalog_Vocabulary/DC-SKOS
15:21:37 <sandro> subtopic: Ed Summers, Brief Intro to Dublin Core and SKOS
15:22:11 <sandro> (page looks great, Ed)
15:22:25 <sandro> edsu: I imagine most folks are familiar with DC and SKOS
15:22:44 <sandro> edsu: DC started in 1995 to create a core set of elements to describe documents in the internet
15:23:06 <sandro> edsu: ... workshop in Dublin, Ohio.   13 elements.  Meeting every years since then.
15:23:16 <sandro> ... turned into IETF and NISO/ISO standards
15:23:32 <sandro> ... co-evolved with RDF, due to people like Eric Miller
15:23:53 <sandro> ... DC has its own "Abstract Model", the way they make descriptions, very similar to RDF model
15:24:08 <sandro> ... expresses vocabulary in RDF,  (DC Terms)
15:24:27 <sandro> ... I have links to how widely it's used.
15:24:42 <DavidJames> I'm having trouble logging into the wiki. When the meeting is over, perhaps someone can help?
15:25:39 <Zakim> -martin
15:25:41 <sandro> edsu: SKOS.   1999, mostly through EU projects.   in 2004 moved to W3C.   Jon Phipps was part of that.
15:25:58 <sandro> ... defined in "SKOS Reference"   A W3C Recommendation in 2009.
15:26:42 <danbri> (the work started in DESIRE EU project - http://www.desire.org/html/research/deliverables/D3.6/d36b.html ... then Limber and SWAD-Europe. Thanks, EU taxpayers...)
15:26:44 <sandro> ... People with various controlled vocabs; skos lets them easily mint URIs for them, without re-engineering that whole information space (eg to fit into OWL).   Lightweight way to get existing data of that sort onto the web.
15:27:02 <sandro> ... see examples on the web page.     http://www.w3.org/egov/wiki/Data_Catalog_Vocabulary/DC-SKOS
15:27:40 <fadi_> http://www.w3.org/egov/wiki/Data_Catalog_Vocabulary/DERI_dcat_Demonstrator
15:27:43 <sandro> subtopic: DERI's dcat, Fadi
15:28:09 <sandro> fadi: dcat is an RDF vocabulary to represent government data catalogs.
15:28:26 <sandro> ... design was informed by analyzing existing catalogs.
15:28:40 <sandro> ... we looked at what attributes existing catalogs used
15:28:54 <sandro> ... then we looked at the data, to see how consistently it was used
15:29:06 <sandro> ... main entities are Dataset and Catalog
15:29:15 <ww> question re: dcat:granularity could perhaps be dcat:spatialGranularity and dcat:temporalGranularity?
15:29:39 <sandro> ... we tried to use skos:Concept
15:29:59 <sandro> zakim, who is talking?
15:30:11 <Zakim> sandro, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: ??P27 (13%), cygri (37%)
15:31:11 <lindstream> Re. distribution/updates: quite orthogonal. I like how dady extends void with that.
15:30:27 <sandro> subtopic:   CTIC's Dataset Catalog Vocabulary and “meta-catalog” (Martin) 
15:30:33 <sandro> martin???
15:30:40 <sandro> zakim, where is martin?
15:30:40 <Zakim> sorry, sandro, I do not understand your question
15:30:42 <martin> I cannot connect to the conference, Zakim sais that it's full
15:30:54 <sandro> martin, press *0 to get the operator to add you
15:31:26 <sandro> if you can't get in, we'll do your presesntation next week.    so sorry for not having enough space today.
15:31:43 <martin> I'm trying to contact an operator
15:31:41 <sandro> subtopic: Sunlight Labs API proposal (David, Luigi)
15:31:41 <LuigiMontanez> http://nationaldatacatalog.com/
15:32:02 <sandro> DavidJames: National Data Catalog
15:32:03 <Zakim> +martin
15:32:15 <LuigiMontanez> http://wiki.sunlightlabs.com/Government_Data_Catalog_Guidelines
15:32:25 <sandro> DavidJames: We're looking for a few things.    
15:32:30 <sandro> ... being ReSTful
15:32:50 <sandro> ... We view RDF as one way to express our data, but we're also looking for other formats
15:33:23 <sandro> ... developers really gravidate to lightweight solutions, and don't feel like RDF is worthwhile, from what they can tell.
15:33:43 <sandro> ... We're planning to add RDF support down the right, but at this point our key job is building buy-in
15:33:57 <sandro> ... We think the RDF community really understand how to make the data interoperable
15:34:12 <sandro> ... We want to adopt principals of RDF, even if we're not using the RDF formats right now.
15:34:41 <sandro> topic: Atom and dataset updates 
15:34:47 <sandro> zakim, who is talking?
#15:34:54 <Cory> Could whoever is typing mute please!
15:34:58 <Zakim> sandro, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: ??P27 (26%), cygri (60%), jonphipps (20%)
15:35:13 <sandro> cygri: What are the reasons we should consider other solutions?   Are there things not easily covered by RDF?
15:35:23 <sandro> zakim, who is talking?
15:35:30 <edsu> uhoh
15:35:32 <LuigiMontanez> cannot hear
15:35:34 <Zakim> sandro, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: ??P27 (18%), cygri (49%)
15:35:36 <vassilios> +1
15:35:41 <dret> terrible noise
15:35:42 <sandro> zakim, mute ??P27
15:35:42 <Zakim> ??P27 should now be muted
15:35:48 <DavidJames> We are being jammed by touch tones
15:35:54 <edsu> damn!
15:36:05 <sandro> zakim, who is talking?
15:36:15 <Zakim> sandro, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: martin (3%), Sandro (46%), cygri (35%)
15:36:27 <sandro> q+
15:37:48 <sandro> LuigiMontanez: It's mostly the tooling, as a developer.   As a ruby or python developer.  We're used to working with twitter or facebook API.
15:37:52 <dan> JSON is a notation scheme, RDF is structure.  here is example of RDF in JSON notation: http://n2.talis.com/wiki/RDF_JSON_Specification 
15:38:03 <sandro> ... they don't tread into RDF world, even though it might be good for them, too.
15:38:23 <sandro> ... it's not that RDF is more complicated; it's about the tooling.
15:38:37 <sandro> ... ckan is the only one I know of.   
15:38:45 <sandro> ack sandro 
15:38:49 <DavidJames> I just added a section called "Context / Philosophy" to http://wiki.sunlightlabs.com/Government_Data_Catalog_Guidelines
15:38:50 <ww> dan: we've experimented with some success storing rdf/json in mongodb
15:38:52 <sandro> http://code.google.com/p/linked-data-api/
15:40:05 <lindstream> ww, cool
15:40:35 <sandro> sandro: linked-data-api might be a good solution here   [details]
15:40:51 <sandro> cygri: are you thinking about govt agencies, or developer/users?
15:41:01 <sandro> Luigi: Both.
15:41:12 <dan> ww: similarly working on crime summary vocab using this approach: http://www.ipublic.org/wiki/Crime_summary_vocabulary
15:41:15 <sandro> Luigi: The govt agency usually just wants to make a website.
15:41:27 <sandro> ... they say "Well, how do we provide the data/api"?
#15:41:32 <DavidJames> Actually, LuigiMontanez is talking :)
15:41:38 <sandro> ... we say use existing/popular techniques
15:41:44 <sandro> ... socrata [?]
15:42:00 <sandro> ... municipalities can get started very quickly that way
15:42:30 <sandro> ... at sunlight we try to convcince gocts to put their data on line.    we want to tell them to do the easiest thing for them, and unforunately right now, that's not RDF.
15:42:59 <sandro> cygri: Quite a few catalogs are using simple structured forms, pre web, CSV.      eg data.gov.
15:43:14 <sandro> cygri: So you want to go one step beyond this, eg json, xml.    
15:43:37 <sandro> DavidJames: We're also looking for interop.   I think that's where RDF really shines.
15:43:56 <sandro> DavidJames: let's create this RDF spec, but make it easy for agencies and developers to adopt it.
15:44:01 <sandro> +1 sounds great!
#15:44:14 <sandro> [oops, that was Luigi, not David.]
15:44:40 <li> we have been playing around with CSV based catalog at  data.gov
15:44:51 <sandro> DavidJames: Gov't agencies are ... somewhat behind.    Permanent URLs would be great.   Feeds would be great.
15:44:55 <Cory> +q
15:45:05 <sandro> DavidJames: THEN we can push for RDF, etc.   There's a LOT to do.
15:45:17 <li> at RPI. and there are some imperfect entries
15:45:21 <sandro> DavidJames: We want to be careful about what we ask for.    Short term + Long Term.
15:45:31 <sandro> ack DavidJames 
15:45:39 <sandro> cygri: Great concrete requirements
15:45:50 <sandro> cygri:What do you mean "feeds".  In which sense?
15:46:01 <li> for short time goal, we should consider work out a minimal set of vocabulary agreed by all
15:46:07 <li> and promote it
15:46:12 <sandro> DavidJames:  Something that makes it easy for automatic importers, so it's easy to see when a record has changed.
15:46:39 <sandro> cygri: To be able to sync, to keep up with changes, which of 3000 data sets have changed in last week
15:47:09 <sandro> LuigiMontanez: Yes.   To see which data sets have updated, and so developer knows when to pull and update their copy of the data.
15:47:14 <cygri> ack Cory
15:47:44 <George> you meant 'normal xml'
15:47:56 <sandro> Cory: In making RDF, in the short term, the striped data format often gets overlooked.     RDF *CAN* be written (striped) to look like normal XML, with an XML schema, and processed with normal XML tools.   But it's ALSO normal RDF.
15:48:07 <LuigiMontanez> http://www.stripesframework.org/display/stripes/Home
15:48:10 <sandro> +1 cory      using constrained RDF/XML is nice.
15:48:21 <lindstream> have you seen: http://code.google.com/p/oort/wiki/Grit ? (self-promotion ;] )
15:48:25 <sandro> George, I'm sure he did.
15:48:52 <LuigiMontanez> Oops, think my link was wrong
15:49:00 <sandro> cygri: yes, regular serialization is one approach.      GRDDL is another way.
15:49:02 <lindstream> +q
15:49:04 <LuigiMontanez> This look more correct as to what Cory was referring: http://www.w3.org/2001/10/stripes/
15:49:19 <sandro> cygri: Also RDFa
15:49:34 <sandro> cygri: Allows one to parse RDF graph out of HTML page.
15:49:38 <George> +1 Cory and cygri - developers need some schoolin'
15:49:39 <li> regarding to the changes in data.gov, we even use twitter to publish the changes https://twitter.com/datagovwiki
15:49:55 <sandro> cygri: Ways to bridge RDF and what developers want.
15:50:05 <sandro> ack lindstream 
15:50:13 <edsu> lindstream: you on the call?
15:50:18 <sandro> lindstream....
15:50:30 <lindstream> i hear you, you don't hear me?
15:50:31 <sandro> zakim, who is muted?
15:50:31 <Zakim> I see ??P27, Rich_Wolverton, +0789798aaee muted
15:50:56 <sandro> zakim, unmute ??P27
15:50:56 <Zakim> ??P27 should no longer be muted
15:51:05 <edsu> sandro++
15:51:35 <Cory> luigu - yes,  http://www.w3.org/2001/10/stripes/ is it - often overlooked as a bridge.  What this doesn't say is that it can also have an XSD
15:51:59 <sandro> lindstream: Regarding formats, that's a very important point.     Not trick people into producing RDF, but make it transparent for them.  They do namespaced XML and it just happens to be RDF.   That's what I proposed with GRIT, a normalized RDF.
15:52:13 <sandro> (I call this "rigid RDF" myself.)
15:52:24 <ww> support for serialising striped xml in the usual tools?
15:52:27 <li> AT RPI we have already experimenting RDFa for metadata publishing, here is an example http://data-gov.tw.rpi.edu/wiki/Dataset_34, and the parsed RDFa can be found at http://data-gov.tw.rpi.edu/ws/lodcx.php?url=http%3A%2F%2Fdata-gov.tw.rpi.edu%2Fwiki%2FDataset_34&operation=test. Further more, the RDFa data can be used to enrich search result, e.g. http://dat  
15:52:34 <li> http://data-gov.tw.rpi.edu/ws/lodcs.php?query=earthquake
15:52:57 <sandro> cygri: note on IRC the RPI examples
15:53:05 <sandro> cygri: Opinions on RDFa?
15:53:27 <sandro> q+ to comment on dcat scope
15:53:38 <sandro> cygri: Is RDF acceptable to folks?
15:53:47 <sandro> zakim, mute ??P27
15:53:47 <Zakim> ??P27 should now be muted
15:53:56 <lindstream> I like RDFa a lot, but's afaik it can only be viewed with an "RDF eye"
15:54:01 <sandro> zakim, ??P27 is lindstream 
15:54:01 <Zakim> +lindstream; got it
15:54:07 <sandro> lindstream, I muted you because of noise
15:54:42 <lindstream> (sandro, my line is very poor right now)
15:54:44 <sandro> ww: data.gov.uk rdfa is made by drupal front-end, it's completelye disconnected from backend rdf store
#15:55:03 <vassilios> who said this?
#15:55:05 <sandro> someone_else: that's unfortunately
15:55:13 <DavidJames> Luigi and I are taking a look at some fairly recent open source code for Ruby and RDF here: http://github.com/bendiken/rdf
#15:55:55 <sandro> s/someone/William
15:56:04 <sandro> q?
15:56:09 <li> At RPI, we add an extension to semantic wiki to export the backend RDF into RDFa
15:56:33 <li> there are a little bit issues on usage of vocabulary, because RDFa consumers are more picky 
15:56:39 <edsu> q+ to suggest dcat+rdfa note
15:56:48 <li> e.g. yahoo and google are taking different RDFa vocabulary 
15:56:48 <sandro> cyg: is there somewhere easy to start, here?
15:57:10 <sandro> cyg: the updates/feeds issue was interesting.  I don';t know how to handle that in pure RDF environment.
15:57:20 <sandro> q?
15:57:42 <li> if we want to get major search engines to take the RDFa, we should probably convince them the value of RDFa vocabulary
<sandro> topic: Scope of this Work
15:57:56 <sandro> cygri: I also wanted to talk about scope for this group.  What do we want to deliver, what are the artificacts?
15:58:08 <sandro> cyg: 1.  Nail down a vocabulary, in a vocab reference document
15:58:27 <sandro> ... 2. Implementor's guide, telling folks how to use it in practice.
15:58:41 <sandro> ... 3.  perhaps a Demonstrator
15:59:11 <sandro> ... 4.  Use Cases?   Requirements?    Test Cases?   Dunno if those are appropirate here.
15:59:18 <edsu> +1
15:59:21 <lindstream> Perhaps dcat should provide a separate "dcat distribution types" vocab? Or leave notification details out, and recommend (link to) existing or upcoming methods (AtomOwl, dady..)?
15:59:30 <sandro> proposed: extend by 15 mins
15:59:30 <Cory> +1
15:59:31 <sandro> +1
15:59:33 <DavidJames> +1 15 minute extension
15:59:36 <RichW> +1
15:59:37 <lindstream> + 1 15 min
15:59:38 <ww> +1
15:59:39 <kate_geyer> +1
15:59:39 <martin> +1
15:59:42 <vassilios> +1
15:59:46 <sandro> resolved: extend by 15 mins
15:59:47 <dan> +1
16:00:21 <lindstream> (not, leave out dcat:distribution, but the details it refers to)
16:01:19 <dret> +1
16:01:41 <sandro> sandro: let's focus on building an RDF vocabulary, here, and deal with the RDF-world bridge elsewhere.
16:01:41 <cygri> sandro: propose to focus on the RDF vocab in this group, being aware that there's more work to do afterwards
16:02:08 <sandro> sandro: also multiple implementions is better than one demonstrator.
16:02:12 <Zakim> - +1.202.564.aaii
16:02:20 <DavidJames> I like the idea of keeping this group focused on RDF.
16:02:22 <dret> what about patterns of how to expose certain services around the vocabulary in plain web ways?
16:02:33 <sandro> edsu: Yes, vocab note, and implementors guide.    But also guide to how to use this outside of just RDF.
16:02:35 <li> at RPI, we would also like to contribute some thought on data.gov vocabularies
16:02:40 <DavidJames> Of course, for our work, we're interested in applying the principles to other formats as well.
16:02:42 <li> based on our experience,
16:02:44 <sandro> q?
16:02:47 <sandro> ack sandro 
16:02:47 <Zakim> sandro, you wanted to comment on dcat scope
16:02:49 <sandro> ack edsu 
16:02:49 <Zakim> edsu, you wanted to suggest dcat+rdfa note
16:03:28 <sandro> vassilios: Maybe we're mixing two discussions that we don't need to mix.    1.  the vocab;   2. the format for the vocab.     
16:03:41 <sandro> vassilios: Maybe have vocab in a neutral format, eg UML.
16:03:44 <dret> separating a data model and services provided around that vocabulary would be a very good idea.
16:04:05 <lindstream> Re. updates w. Atom or alternatives: see summary by Leigh Dodds: http://www.ldodds.com/blog/2010/04/rdf-dataset-notifications/
16:04:27 <sandro> cyg: I'd be concerned about leaving concrete rep open, then we wont really get interop.)
16:04:34 <Cory> Not fully open - you need a closed set of rpresentations
16:04:49 <vassilios> +1 to cory
16:04:49 <sandro> cyg: Also, if we document a number of different ways, then, again, we don't get interop.
16:04:52 <dret> do you want to propose a standard, or best practices? i think this is a very important distinction to make
16:05:00 <sandro> +1 cygri interop is top priority.
16:05:49 <li> I think FOAF is a good case to follow
16:05:55 <sandro> erik: It's also important to have services.     how you communicate updates, too.
16:06:27 <sandro> erik: this big problems: not just modeling the data, but how you use the data, and build services on top of it.
16:06:32 <sandro> ack DavidJames
16:06:55 <sandro> DavidJames: Where are people leaning on separating vocabulary from format
16:07:27 <lindstream> .. my thoughts on this topic are mostly at: http://code.google.com/p/court/
16:07:36 <dret> vocabularies and servoces are two separate thongs, and both are essential for building interactions.
16:07:46 <dret> things, actually ;-)
16:08:01 <sandro> cyg: Difference between UML and RDF is fairly minor.
16:08:37 <Cory> We generaly do a UML model first, and produce RDF - but can also produce other formats
16:08:39 <ww> however it should be encouraged that e.g. json type services represent their data in the same shape as the rdf (or abstract) model
16:08:58 <Zakim> -lindstream
16:09:26 <George> +1 sandro
16:09:34 <li> if the vocabulary is fairly annotations and flat,  we don't need a very complex description other than dublin core 
16:09:44 <sandro> sandro: I don't see an advantage to going more abstract that what dcat does, RDF, with UML view of it.
16:09:47 <jonphipps> think abstract model is good idea, but not without concrete representations
16:09:51 <Cory> +1 on model first
16:09:53 <dret> servives?
16:10:36 <li> therefore, RDF rather than UML is good enough, I don't think Microformat vocabulary used UML for definition
16:10:48 <sandro> cyg: Think of the UML diagram in dcat, and imagine it without prefixes.   Should we do that?   Is that an important deliverable?
16:10:50 <dret> +1
16:10:56 <sandro> -1 ehhh
16:10:58 <kate_geyer> kate_geyer agrees with edsu
16:10:59 <li> the general principle is to keep everything as simple as possible
16:11:01 <George> -1
16:11:08 <fadi_> -1
16:11:11 <jonphipps> 1 edsu
16:11:21 <li> requirement users to understand UML could be extra cost
16:11:25 <DavidJames> +1
16:11:30 <George> +1 sandro
16:11:47 <sandro> sandro:  Maybe this is mostly editorial, for later.
16:11:57 <vassilios> do you believe that users understand better rdf than uml?
16:11:58 <DavidJames> I agree, deriving a JSON representation isn't a big problem (for this group at least)
16:12:00 <dret> i like the idea of an abstract model, and would like to add a set of services around interactions.
16:12:21 <edsu> dret, so rdfs isn't good enough for the model?
16:12:25 <DavidJames> And there are multiple, interchangable RDF serializations. I don't think we should worry about which is "official"
16:12:30 <sandro> cygri: so, should we do an RDF schema for classes/properties ----   the diagram with boxes and arrows.   An abstract model, we can layer on?
16:12:31 <lindstream> lindstream has joined #egov
16:12:36 <DavidJames> +!
16:12:37 <sandro> +1   (if I understood it right.)
16:12:38 <DavidJames> +1
16:12:39 <cygri> +1
16:12:43 <Cory> Yes, your model should be representation independent - 
16:12:52 <vassilios> +1 to cory
16:12:56 <martin> +1
16:12:58 <vassilios> this is the point
16:13:13 <vassilios> to make it computer independent model according to MDA
16:13:29 <edsu> +1 for what sandro said, if uml means a nice human readable html page
16:13:29 <sandro> sandro: I'm understanding that we'll design it in RDFS terms, but also be aware of what it looks liek in UML terms.
16:13:39 <Cory> The adavantage of UML for this is mostly that it is simpler to understand and can then map to multiple formats
16:13:46 <sandro> Yes, human readable.   Not UML software readable.
16:13:50 <sandro> q?
16:13:52 <DavidJames> vassilios: what do you mean by MDA?
16:14:02 <vassilios> Model Driven Architecture
16:14:10 <Cory> UML is software readable!
16:14:38 <George> this isn't an mda crowd - let the omg do that
16:14:50 <George> or someone like cory :)
16:14:55 <sandro> edsu: RDF is a suitable data modeling language, and the right one for this crowd.
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16:15:14 <dret> there are other structured data formats advocated by the w3c, with much wider availability of tooling and developers in the wild.
16:15:17 <lindstream> +1 on sticking to RDF for the modeling
16:15:39 <DavidJames> I am happy to go with the group consensus on how we model
16:15:40 <sandro> edsu: The toolchains around data formats ...    people want to work on documents sometimes ....   let's make sure there are examples with RDFa and JSON etc.
16:16:15 <Cory> I don't see RDF/UML as conflicting, they are ways to express the same underlying concepts.
16:16:17 <edsu> atom and rss too :-)
16:16:39 <George> +1 cygri
16:16:56 <jonphipps> +1 cygri
16:16:59 <sandro> cygri: We want to do a model thats independant from the concrete syntax or format that we might do in the end.  We want to use RDFS as the modeling language.  This DOES NOT mean folks have to use RDF/XML.   It's about using RDFS as the way to construct our vocabulary.
16:17:00 <edsu> +1 
16:17:04 <sandro> +1 cygri
16:17:07 <li> My point is not rejecting UML. For simplicity concern, we should have something simple enough for regular web developers to take
16:17:36 <dret> sorry for repeating myself, but i think having services is essential. this could also be abstract or concrete, but it would be very helpful as "best practices" for somebody trying to do this.
16:17:41 <DavidJames> I agree with modeling in RDF without thinking about particular serialization details. For this group, why should we care about the particular RDF serialization?
16:17:47 <jonphipps> +1 cygri: "using RDFS as the way to construct our vocabulary."
16:17:47 <sandro> cory: A UML model is easy for people to understand.   The equivalen RDF rep, the equiv JSON rep, ... not a problem.
16:18:22 <sandro> cygri: is that agreement, Cory?
16:18:41 <DavidJames> +1 RDF schema
16:18:41 <sandro> cory: UML is more often used, but RDFS is okay.
16:18:54 <sandro> (time check)
16:18:58 <edsu> dret, i agree, i think i heard cygri addressing this in the 'demonstrator' piece?
16:19:14 <Zakim> -George
16:19:39 <sandro> cygri: Erik, you stress the imporance of services.   Would you agree that having an abstract model in the first place is useful for defining those services?    Or do you need the services first?
16:20:15 <sandro> dret: It would be good to have the model first.  It might be hard to follow, if it's all abstract.    "You might want to expose this bit of JSON", etc, easier to understand.
16:20:33 <sandro> dret: look at data model as static structures, AND servces as the way people interact with the data in that model.
16:20:35 <DavidJames> We already extended 15 minutes, so I think we should be aware of the time...
16:21:17 <edsu> sandro, sounds almost like the w3c egov social media compone
16:21:19 <sandro> dret: recovery.gov initial folks were urged to publish as feeds, and didn't know how to do it.   Having best practices and validation tools, so folks can test if their services are well behaved or not, that's goo dfor developers.
16:21:28 <edsu> s/compone/component/
16:21:31 <sandro> cygri: out of time, thanks everyone!
<sandro> topic: Adjourn
16:21:43 <dret> thanks!
16:21:46 <DavidJames> Thanks
16:21:46 <RichW> RichW has left #egov
16:21:49 <kate_geyer> thanks, all!
16:21:49 <Zakim> -Sandro
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16:21:53 <Zakim> - +0789798aaee
16:21:54 <Zakim> -Kate
16:21:57 <lindstream> Erik, how open-ended a service? I'm thinking "an algorithmic resource for slices of time and/or category".. (delivering doc updates and/or changesets)
16:21:59 <Zakim> -Rich_Wolverton
16:22:00 <Zakim> -Erik
16:22:01 <martin> thanks, bye
16:22:01 <Zakim> -??P48
16:22:02 <Zakim> -edsu
16:22:02 <Zakim> -Cory
16:22:09 <lindstream> thanks all
16:22:09 <vassilios> thanks, bye
16:22:10 <Zakim> -martin
16:22:11 <Zakim> -cygri
16:22:11 <Zakim> -jonphipps
16:22:28 <edsu> cygri, nice job :-)
16:22:53 <jonphipps> hmmm. having trouble logging into the wiki with w3 login
16:23:09 <jonphipps> anything different about it?
16:23:09 <dret> services can be whatever you like them to be. as simple as a feed with very static semantics, or as complex as a query language exposed somewhere. often, the best idea is to have something in the middle "form-based queries", so to speak.
16:23:11 <edsu> jonphipps, i think it got changed up recently
16:23:19 <Zakim> - +1.410.336.aahh
16:23:40 <cygri> martin, sorry for skipping your topic in the end! would you be willing to show it next time?
16:23:54 <dret> bye.
16:23:56 <martin> ok, no problem
16:24:07 <jonphipps> I was able to get onto the swdwg wiki earlier in the week
16:24:10 <edsu> jonphipps, http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-egov-ig/2010Apr/0024.html
16:24:24 <cygri> note to self: things always take twice as long as i'd like them to :-)
16:24:45 <jonphipps> oh, _very_ recently :-)
16:25:02 <jonphipps> btw, nicely done cygri
16:26:01 <edsu> fwiw, i added my dcat in atom strawman to the wiki http://www.w3.org/egov/wiki/Data_Catalog_Vocabulary/AtomStrawman
16:27:28 <lindstream> edsu, nice
16:28:06 <edsu> lindstream, i imagine i may have goofed some things up, please feel free to edit 
16:28:20 <Zakim> disconnecting the lone participant, Sunlight, in T&S_EGOV(LD TECH)10:00AM
16:28:24 <Zakim> T&S_EGOV(LD TECH)10:00AM has ended
16:28:26 <Zakim> Attendees were Sandro, +1.202.955.aaaa, Luigi, David, [CTIC], +1.202.690.aabb, martin, +1.617.521.aacc, +1.510.643.aadd, +0789798aaee, +03539149aaff, cygri, fadi_, +1.617.619.aagg,
16:28:28 <Zakim> ... George, Erik, +1.410.336.aahh, +1.202.564.aaii, Rich_Wolverton, Kate, Cory, jonphipps, edsu, lindstream
16:29:31 <martin> cygri, thanks, I can present when you want
16:29:57 <lindstream> edsu, I'll take a closer look
#16:30:55 <sandro> ciao, lindstream !
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16:31:07 <edsu> seeya lindstream 
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