17 May 2001 WCAG WG minutes


Gregg adds Steering Committee to agenda.

Summary of action items and resolutions



Len Kasday

/* a moment of silence */

We'll miss you, Len!

Steering Committee

GV - issues to take to them? We are getting proliferation of eval and repair tools that have varying degrees of accuracy and disinformation. ERT should be reviewing. They are looking for somewhere to turn for interpretation. We'll have to do some of that. Also, what will happen with ERT? Who chair?

WC Keep in mind work going on in AU WG.

JW What do they think of WCAG 2.0?

KHS Terms to use for disabilities. We need to be consistent across work. Refer to message from 17 May 2001 KHS.

GV More of a coordination group issue.

KHS WAI Glossary normative or not?

GV In regard to tool: does WAI have resources to review all of the tools?

JW ATAG piece was to have messages.

Action GV: Take these issues to Steering Committee:

PDF Techniques

WC Does adobe have a doc ?

LG How to generate tagged PDF using office or webcapture or our "make accessible plug-in." In process another doc, if you have to hand fix up structure, how to do it. Not sure that either answers question.

WC Like the background square?

LG That only here. The docs that exist focus on, "how to run the tools, what settings need to be set, where do you find an accessible plug-in. etc." The doc in process shows how to use tag panel to fix structure.

WC Tagged PDF?

LG Basic paradigm is to put dots on page how author wants. May problems due to the fact that only marks are there. tagged PDF puts additional constraints on author. Also requires that you include logical structure of doc. Lays out rules for structure.

WC Evoluation of tags?

LG Basicaly reflect HTML on some level, particularly tables. A spec for this part of PDF, available on developer site. Tags for paragraphs, headers, links, etc.

WC Instructions for marks and tags mixed together?

LG 2 trees: pointers into content stream.

GV Like a footnote sheet?

JW Can cross reference each other.

LG Application can define own tags and map into structure tree. In general, we've assumed that whoever reads them understands the lang (e.g. HTML).

GV It might be good to link to something which is a write-up of PDF. A "page description language" doesn't tell someone much.

WC What about unicode? I asked some questions.

LG If have text, need to get reliably. What does HTML do?

CS As part of windows, IE tries to download appropriate charset.

JW Provide mapping between font encoding and charset.

LG Yes that's the issue for PDF. In HTML, already in some known character encoding.

KHS There is one that is preferred. Based on settings.

GV what's backwards compatible unicode?

?? UTF-8

GR In css and other style langs, there are diff baselines for rendering. some use bottom, ideographs use common, etc.

JW Where does this one go? It's an application of guideline 1, it doesn't fit into any checkpoints. Using structure properly.

WC Anxious to see how map to WCAG 2.0 and if we need to create checkpoints for final form languages.

GV These read more like checkpoints.

JW Checkpoint solutions.

KHS Trying to stuff techniques under guidelines.

GV Start with techniques, then identify checkpoints. We have guidelines, under have technology-specific checkpoints (checkpoint solutions)

KHS This is checkpoint solutions

GV OK, but then need techniques underneath. extract checkpoints out into shorter doc. e.g. provide text equivalents for image and graphis...that's a checkpoint. if i were to do a pdf doc, i want to know what has to be true about my document. checkpoint solutions. would be shorter and pdf doc qualification. then techniques would say, "great, but how do it?" for pdf, might be long.

LG Need to tell all the generation tools to use tagged pdf

WC can give them a doc like this and say, "here's what to generate."

GV "Does your tool generate PDF that meets this spec" - can help purchasers determine which tool to buy. Please finish before june 15.

/* laughter */

KHS right, go to diff programs and make sure output is accessible.

GV People ask, "is PDF accessible?"

LG Not a good question, can only ask about any particular PDF file. If you want to ensure accessibility, must be tagged right. Make best effort to make readable.

KHS Let's go through these one at a time.

/* going through piece by piece */

GV When say provide text equivs, expect to see a checkpoint that says, "all images and graphics are tagged w/xyz tag." How in PDF to you provide text to images?

LG alt tag. it can be as long as you like.

GV a longdesc? two different purposes.

KHS title?

LG good feedback. I can feed this into process. define a new attribute.

GV Understand why?

LG We quickly get into user agent issues.

GR We need the functionality so that you can have a UA view w/pictures, brief descriptions, or full descriptions.

GV You want that to be rich text. we need to link text w/the picture - the whole doc is an image. Plain text not marked up.

LG Perhaps PDF not up to that. But more I can understand what we want to do, the better I can figure a solution.

GR I'm using HTML. e.g., can mark as code or acronym. can't do that in an alt.

GV If you could allow one to embed additional pdf page as subset of pages or link to othe rpages, then have a tagged info on pg 2. info in tag could be pointer to another pdf page, which then is rich. but if don't want to nest pdf then 2nd page include html

KHS What does acroboat 5 and the plug-in use for links?

LG THere are link annotations. could be a way to do this. depends on what we want to do w/the info. link is a position on the page. can have wide range of actions associated with it. another page, link on web, etc.

GV Can you put a link in pg 2? no, has to be tagged to an area on pg 1.

LG Attributes are extensible.

GV I want to mark up data inside of an attribute.

LG Perhaps as citation? Beyond what we can pull off.

GV What is allow HTML in content of attributes?

LG Nothing that keeps you from doing it. It's just info. Now is a UA issue, what you do with it.

GV PDF Renderer have to deal w/it.

LG Right. won't change what visible on the page.

KHS Or link off to it.

GV Embed HTML in longdesc is tagged PDF doc. when came to picture, when AT asks for longdesc, get HTML.then it figure out what to do w/it.

GR Acrobat reader for IE, why not an Ie reader for acrobat.

KHS WHy not link out?

GV Then have to package several documents to make it accessible.

LG Not be self-contained.

GV Is there a way to bury data in a PDF file?

CS How include graphics?

LG part of content stream.

CS do teh same thing w/markup?

LG Literally saying, "draw this graphic at this location at this size.

CS Included in the stream not a sep doc?

LG Right.

GV Can have a doc w/only images.

LG Right, when scan doc w/out OCR.

GV so, write about the alt tag. make clear how one should use it.

KHS Next: identify natural language of the doc.

GV Have a lang tag?

LG Right.

GV Use the PDF tag, but make it in format so that obviously only PDF

/* question about language. under comprehension? */

WC WCAG mapping is to "Use markup or a data model to provide the logical structure of content."

/* debate about if this is comprehension or presentation */

/* argument that presentation since giving clue about what charset to use and what language to speak in. */

GV Can buy that.

CS Need to add a checkpoint to guideline 1. different from the others. Also, combine two from WCAG 1.0 into 2.0

GV Higher priority for marking up changes than marking up lang of whole page. 508 dumped both.

GR Get verbiage from UA.

GV Put together for now.

Action GR and KHS: write proposal for new checkpoint under Guideline 1 to handle language markup.

Resolution: finish discussing PDF Techniques at next week's mtg.

/* Both GV and WC gave regrets for next week */

$Date: 2001/05/17 21:43:42 $ Wendy Chisholm