Minutes 22 January 2001 ER WG Telecon

Summary of resolutions and action items



Sean, Kynn, Charles

Testing equivalent alternative pages

CR If original page has images and alternative does not, not sure about equivalence.

WL Depends on well the alt-text is written.

LK One page has image with alt-text, the other with all text and no images, to compare them with a machine then probably not a need for the alternative page. Main reason for alternative page is when original page is not accessible.

WL Which is why we have the "if all else fails" caveat.

CR Is there an example of where the "if all else fails"?

WC Flash site.

WL But we've got Macromedia on board to help make that directly accessible. Would like to imagine there is not an example.

WC Saw an example last week where mouse rollovers provided information through text. Had a text-only page but those clues did not show up in that view.

WL Since most of my experience is with blind guys, their best form of access is usually Wife1.0. Nothing compares to a human.

LK When I see a text-only page, I first check that all of the links show up on both.

WL I would assume that tool exists. Pretty straight forward to do, right? If it doesn't exist, it should.

CR I don't know of a tool like that.

WL Build into A-prompt?

CR Sure. What else would you look for?

WC Could have text-only branch through site in which case links would not match between versions. Other option is one HTML page becomes 5 WML pages since WML divide into smaller chunks.

WL Part of device independent authoring process.

WC Right, actually most transformations are not arbitrary (e.g. every 10 lines) and thus the author will indicate breaks.

WL Every transformation comes under ATAG.

LK Another possibility for EARL is to make statements about heuristic tests that someone might have that are not part of the checkpoints. For example, that the alternative have same links as original. Not be included in 2.0 not in 1.0, because there are valid objections, but could be something to check for.

WL Person could then explain why images were not included in alternative page. For example, "this page has photos of trip to bristol an amusing one is..." I am on a list that is discussing creating a semantic web browser. The IBM intermediary is part of the concept. So more than tracking where you've been, but why you've been there - your schema. SWAG - semantic web agreement group - writing dictionary of terms. It's a discussion on e-groups that you can join. Sean, Aaron, and others are there. It's happening very fast. It's the tower of Babel problem. You get hung up on language rather than idea. For example people using communication boards. They are hung up on words. Changing radically in the last few years.

Open issues

open issues list

12. Valid "longdesc"

LK Have to check the file not the pointer.

CR Check that the file is valid, that it has some text.

WL Sounds like a job for a-prompt.

Resolved: issue #12 Check that longdesc file exists and that it has some text. Requires manual check to determine if text is appropriate description of image.

14. Elements that might have audio

LK All kinds of things that could be audio, we would have to check APPLET, EMBED, SCRIPT, etc because they could all contain audio. Plus anytime you have a CGI script or anything that goes to the server, the server could return an audio file. The proposal is that you check them all for audio. This is the ideal tool, what may happen might be another option.

WL But its just a recommendation.

LK In AU they have to figure out what constitutes compliance. Does it just pop up an alert box or does it do some tests.

WL What happens when you haven't bound a particular extension to a particular rendering application? You get an error message that says "unrecognized, how do you want to handle?" What happens when someone comes up with something different?

LK What happens when a new mime type comes along? None of the media formats are under W3C?

WC Right. except PNG and CMG or whatever, image formats.

LK How do we deal with formats that are not W3C but that are essential to operation of page.

WL With realaudio, i would imagine that a huge percentage of blind users love it.

LK Every day there can be a new plug-in on a site. A tool would have a bunch of recognized mime type. When it sees a new mime type it flashes a manual warning to the user.

WC Seems related to 8.1.


Resolved: Issue #14 Tool should flag mime types that are not part of its base already. When new type comes along informs the user of the tool.

15. Checks for NOSCRIPT

LK In AERT NOSCRIPT is text, but can be markup. Check if what's inside NOSCRIPT is accessible.

WL Can it be an object? an applet?

LK Check that it is valid HTML? Can only contain a block: P | %heading; | %list; | %preformatted; | DL | DIV | NOSCRIPT | BLOCKQUOTE | FORM | HR | TABLE | FIELDSET | ADDRESS

WL Some tools put weird stuff in despite DTD.

LK Write, AOLPress insists on putting BODY in NOSCRIPT.

Resolved: Issue #15 Check contents of NOSCRIPT according to spec, i.e. only contains a block: P | %heading; | %list; | %preformatted; | DL | DIV | NOSCRIPT | BLOCKQUOTE | FORM | HR | TABLE | FIELDSET | ADDRESS

16. Checks for ISMAP

WC Propose that add text to HTML Techniques section 7.6 (image maps) that says, if using a server-side map as well as client-side then the client-side is providing the text links for the server-side. Then the checkpoint that applies is adding redundant text links for client-side image map (priority 3).

WL How does A-prompt handle?

CR Not sure. ismap is not very common anymore.

Action WC propose language to WCAG for issue #16.

Resolved: Issue #16 is closed for us, when WCAG makes a change in techniques send notice to AU/ER with list of changes, then up to AU/ER to incorporate into AU/ER techniques.

26. Server-side to client-side image map conversion

CR Have map file, can convert. Sent to list last week.

LK Do we want to include the brute force method as well?

CR We looked at that, to do it properly requires many exchanges with the server and becomes impractical.

WC Any way to request the map file?

CR Looked into, couldn't find any way to do it.

LK If they haven't done their security patches... <laughter/>

WL Or call up the author.

CR This just be for older files. Not used much anymore.

LK Input form that has a submit button. that image acting like an image map. everytime have one of those tags should be probing to see if server side map. Theoretically probe all image tags in an INPUT element to determine if server-side image maps (INPUT type=image").

Resolved: Issue #26 If you find ismap and the map file is available, here is how you can convert it to a client-side image map with usemap. If you find INPUT type="image" then a heuristic you can use is to probe the image to determine if it is used as a server-side image map. If any probes come back different

Action LK write up proposals for issues 12, 14, 15, and 26 and send to AU.

$Date: 2001/01/22 17:58:27 $ Wendy Chisholm