Minutes: August 28, 2000 Telecon

Summary of action items and resolutions


Making Classes Accessible

WL: To HB; In SGML, is there a distinction between presentation and content?

HB: Yes. Markup only for structure and content.

WL: I think presentation is content.

HB: Up to others to find presentation. There may be more than one presentation of same content.

LK: If HTML uses 'class', would 'class' be content?

HB: Could be. Example - chunking of my book. Presentation could be part of structure of book.

LK: Class is content then?

HB: Could be content.

LK: Could be decoration.

WL: Meaningless is not artistic. Some people want a particular style

HB: Lawyers for example.

LK: Some people have put style that is not content though.

WL: Not so. People do these things with purpose. My book - style conveys something. Most people use speech to communicate. Punctation marks are part of content. How it's spoken. Difficult to teach deaf people to read.

LK: What about bad design? Changes in appearance for no purpose and no thought. How to express poor design? Allow authors to create classes. There will be some classes that may not be exposed to blind users?

WL: Blink users need all classes. They may be student of bad design for example. "Allow everyone to smell bad odors."

LK: Everyone gets all classes even bad ones?

WL: Yes.

HB: How does person express the purpose of class?

WL: Example of 'warning' class with style sheet.

LK: Visual effects are hard to put into words.

WL: If class is whimsical should still be marked. HR can have a class. HR could contain info.

LK: Need info from more designers. My designs always use simple logic. Need artistic designers to give more feedback.

WL: I know artists. They believe in "God's" good taste. Creates dichotomy. Good taste sometimes equals bad taste. Example of color.

LK: Can anyone give example of where class doesn't have a major use?

HB: No example but I content that class is not needed by all but is necessary to be available to all.

LK: Does anyone know of example of different H2s? Each has different looks?

WL: I do this. Different paths. Serves a purpose. Artistry has a purpose.

LK: Example of change appearance and not worth letting blind user know about?

WL: Would be 'A' (single) blind user, not ALL blind users.

LK: How many class values?

HB: Over 100. Associated with doc header. Something like half are used.

WL: Don't have to use Alt text.

HB: Class could be ignored. Not historic. Not used until recently.

WL: When HTML was young, people used Frames etc. for visual effects. Clever people using elements for formatting (H1 for formatting). Class is used the same way - with impunity. We are trying to take away class away.

HB: Authors wanted to discriminate in some way. Classes allow author to add meta info to anything.

HB: Overloading of class attribute. Not controlled by anyone. Sub instances in class content. Pseudo markup in class "<something>". Will talk about in later communication.

WL: Trying to get use of class and style sheets under control. Make classes accessible so they are accessible. Make class info accessible.

LK: In XML, tags can have new meaning, do we need Class? Why have class in XML?

HB: One approach. Most attributes are meta info about tag. Meta info applies to content.

MC: No definition of any attribute.

HB: Right. Can have any attributes.

MC: CSS spec - class used as selector is shorthand for div. XML could have new element.

HB: Presentation of that element could be null. Could be absorbed by application.

LK: In XHTML, can browsers display other tags?

MC: Browsers not required to support XHTML.

LK: In XHTML can use XML tags?

WL: Can still use STYLE in header and use class.

LK: Still needed in XHTML.

WL: Right. Can define class and extent XHTML. Can create pseudo element.

HB: Style mechanism can be unending task. DOD used SGML and is unending.

HB: Style can be affected by other than class. Document 'lang' for example. It's up to author to specify.

LK: Proposal for making stylesheet accessible is to use 'title'. Can we control how browser reads title?

WL: If use embellishment then explain embellishment. Get idea across is important. People will always have workaround. Don't want to restrict authors - color use etc.

LK: Example: Table with 'pass' 'fail', red discs and green discs. Ask author to put info in class?

HB: Use stylesheet to expose.

LK: It's hard to find examples.

WL: Class name is usually its own ALT.

WL: Rewriting class spec is too daunting. Reminds me of "gold platted buggy whips".

WL: Use meaningful names when creating class.

LK: User agent will review name.

WL: Just using class is a flag.

LK: Only use class that serve a purpose.

LK: Can use only 1 word in class name and still be pronounceable? Can have multiple names in class name?

HB: Yes. Attributes are quoted.

LK: Use meaningful names. Browser should expose name, should jump to next value. Don't have to ask CSS to change.

WL: Skipping is good. Sometimes skim by looking for bold.

Revised AERT

Guideline 14.1: Use the clearest and simplest language appropriate for a site's content.

LK: 14.1.1 - headings: how checked? Allow someone other than author to review? Is this necessary?

CR: Yes check for headings. Allow different methods of heading presentation so user can properly check. Everyone agree checking headers is necessary?

ALL: yes.

LK: What about other style (14.1.2, 14.1.3 etc.) checks?

All: yes

CR: Will take further discussions to list.

Next Meeting

Next week's meeting is cancelled (September 4). We may be meeting with AU group on Tuesday September 5. Len will post confirmation to list.

August 28, 2000 - Chris Ridpath