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EOWG meeting 3-15-02

Present: Doyle, Judy, Kathleen, Andrew, Sarah, Marja, Silvie, Audrey, Helle, Ralph, Sean, Natasha,

Judy, Agenda, everyone if one URL part is jigteam as part of the address, change to WWW instead of Jigteam. Discussion of audio bridge on new Zakim with Audrey who called in on old conference code. First outreach updates?

Andrew two workshops we ran we are starting to attract web designers, and developers, as opposed to government clients. More demand from the designers and developers' clients caused this. The client spoke to us about disability issues.

Judy questions or comments,

Kathleen modify to accommodate designers?

Andrew not so far. Make them more technical down the line.

Kathleen do you have a page that details what you do?

Andrew I included a URL in the email about the works.

Kathleen I would love to get that.

Judy other updates?

Kathleen I would like to invite everyone to CSUN at the Hilton Newport C 1:30pm to 2pm. Connecticut government presentation.

Judy Wendy Chisolm will present on Thursday noon people curious about joining WAI groups. Please register soon.

Kathleen, internet access is dial in and Earthllinks has five local providers that aren't long distance.

Judy Other updates?

Audrey our local Chamber of Commerce had a meeting and a number of local people were interested in disability access.

Judy let's go to the next piece of the agenda. How many people could also be on IRC on relay chat. Andrew and Helle, Marja maybe?

Helle I am in the office I have my ordinary on-line.

Judy maybe four people interested? See how it goes try a few times perhaps at the next meeting. With regard to the Caan meeting. We changed the agenda a little. Natasha will send her piece today.

Andrew I have it at home.

Judy One of the things we discussed at Caan at the most half the people were active members. One of the things was talking about prioritization. So that people would know what we are working on. Get the implementation planning resource suite done. Update the policies with respect to … templates project jump ahead of everything. Some debate from people how use the web. How long that was put off. I am trying to find how much of an actual decision was made.

Andrew I think the decision was that the evaluation page be finished to complete the suite, and then call for ideas. Clean up the policy page, update the people who have disabilities page.

Judy I am realizing if I had looked at the order of the three, the superset discussion is also relevant. The internationalization.. Didn't get a lot of synergy on the best practices, but the one thing, some interest in very particular exercises around development. Andrew do you have a clean summary?

Andrew I'll scan through it. You summed up quite a bit. That… could develop some guidelines, pick up internationalization issues. Happy for us to include any internationalization issues.

Judy there was some discussion about orienting our efforts to authoring tools developers their template supporting accessibilities. Not a lot has been terribly successful yet.

Andrew some people suggested that generic suites might be useful.

Judy that might influence developers. People were working off different views of templates. Some entire web page, some small modules. Some interest in the very small modular chunks that people could adopt. Some interest pushing the priority of that over the other issues in the second quarter. If you look at the link for the deliverables. Half way through March and have not finished for the first quarter. Some people were asking …

Sarah how do you see the process of developing these templates.. Where would they be developed.

Judy somehow find some web designers that were willing to do that for us. Do people here have a reactions to the modules? We had talked recently about a number of tutorial topics, a wish list, possibly tie that work into the modules work. Sarah you asked how would they be developed.

Sarah people here are crying for templates. There is a demand for templates. I don't worry about this group being involved. The information about and guidance is more important. Spend time promoting for people who need to use the web. Can't possibly do all mending. It is just like a bandaid. Outreach is where we ought to put the information. Once you define a template in Dreamweaver, a change is replicated in all the pages. What might be more useful in the WAI area not this group. That employ the guidelines of accessibility. Anyone can copy the code and modify for their own needs.

Natasha I like that idea.

Judy some people seem to really want entire sites. With multiple techniques integrated, and some templates. In both cases the goal was something for people to copy and use. So Sarah the intent people were talking about things that they could grab and run, and they were happy with pieces.

Andrew pages would demonstrate before and after. Jean Louis demonstrated from IBM how that accessibility could be.

Helle I don't know if you mentioned this atomizing idea be broken up in small parts to stick together as you want. Richard said it basically driven this way easier to put to something relevant to me. Talked about indexing the bits and pieces and make one's own templates. Relevent for one's purposes at the time.

Judy. We looked at some CSS box models an approach that shows a number of different design examples around one particular design question.

Sean in support of what Sarah said, I took one and change quite a bit. People will change. Change and break everything.

Judy you were saying templates aren't fool proof, because they can be broken. Build in comments that explain to people could use.

Sarah if people could look at the code, but wysiswyg and won't see. Work part of the time.

Andrew will work professionals, but on a casual basis or in a hurry won't use.

Judy I want to go back to a question Sarah was raising. How will we develop these? Assuming within the working group may not be the best place to develop them. Do a call for templates? Look at them and figure out what we wanted, or do our own. Contract out to develop them. Wanted to have …

Sarah I think a call for templates is a good idea. Copyright issues.

Natasha, I wonder who would be willing to share.

Judy we just need some templates to get started.

Marja I like the idea.

Helle how much how small could a template be? How little small a code to call it template?

Judy let me put out this URL a little bit long, Going out on line I will describe the URL www.thenoodleincident.com/tutorials/box_lesson/boxes.html

That would show how small the template.

Andrew a mini tutorial.

Helle this would be a good idea. Drop down menus I'm looking for and layers.

Judy we did have that wish list about things we would like to do. To mini tutorials on. Let me just ask some yes no questions. Do people want to further discuss at another meeting soon, what we could do with templates.

Natasha I would like to see samples of the code. I don't believe the templates can be fairly universal. If we provide tutorials is the best. If we can eat out own dog food. If we have our WAI the template we are using is compliant with accessibility. I don't believe the templates would be sufficient. To have the samples of the code. A picture of that. A drop down menu, or skip links, provide the code.

Judy that is what we have that in the techniques document.

Natasha if we can find the ready made templates. I can't share copyright code.

Audrey On the one hand we are trying to provide help for coders. On the other hand get the word out wider for people who use WYSIWYG.

Judy we all have different ideas about what templates is a good idea. Have a more structured discussion. More samples of what we each mean. What type of template work we try to do. The first step would be scheduling some talk to about templates with a better planned discussions. Does that work for people.

Audrey could it be behind the different apprehensions is different audiences. May need to have that conversation along with that.

Judy we can't address all audiences. Advise other people of things that would be great to contribute. Focus about of template work. Priority of template. Look at outreach materials scheduled for January through March. Policies will take some discussions, quick tips won't take a lot, how people with disabilities use the web will take a month. …Review teams FAQ etc where do people see templates in this list. In Caan they pushed for that to be next.

Audrey what will forward our mission more? What audiences are the priorities of groups.

Sarah I think the Caan people were further along than others. At Dartmouth the templates are way down the road. I am still writing up reports and quidelines. It is awfully difficult to design a page. Maybe the techniques area is a better place to do that. What Natasha said that would be a good place to put that. Help people not take over the topic.

Audrey that brings us to authoring tools developers, trying to bring them to this.

Judy one of the least responsive groups. Think about strategies that they could adopt eventually and shape their own processes.

Natasha to me authoring is the most important. To evaluate different tools that would be the most important. We are how to navigate from one link to another in code.

Judy page conversion tools.

Sarah I would was going to say, in our second quarter gallery of accessible web sites. Put a lovely shield on the site. Maybe that would be a better way to do the function and highlight them. People who are looking for code can then go and swipe the code.

Judy to summarize what the highest prioritiy, what the templates look, and from Sarah what would the most efficient ways to combine that with the workflow. I am not hearing people say that this surpasses what we are currently doing.

Audrey, I am a business owner for a few months, the audience I deal with, what they want to know what is in it for me?

Judy business case.

Audrey carries over at ALA people really didn't care about people with disabilities. In order to get our message across we have to figure out what they want. The primary ones we want to hit, what can we show them what we want to do that they can use. To look at everything from that perspective to give us some logical slots. We seem to be spinning our wheels otherwise.

Judy sounds like people want the priorities stand as they are.

Sarah I think what I am hearing trying to provide examples and also code. Two people trying to provide resources. A more structured conversation to incorporate into our comments.

Judy I think that still stands. In Caan we made a commitment to send out call for templates.

Andrew it would be a shame to make a call and not anything to do with it.

Judy one other thing people might like to do is to think of some other piece and think about deliverables is there some part that you could help out. Are there some people who do some regular editing on these documents. The amount of change work that comes is great but takes time. Interested in working on particular on things let me know.

Audrey I am working on accessibility training so I would like help with that.

Judy You and I ought to talk on that, and they whole …In terms of additional agenda for today. Let's look at the certification discussion. We did some exploration there. Came up with the following questions to think about how to think about it. Look through this and think a bit. Let's have some discussion. In the near future. See how this fits in with our priorities. That you be aware of this discussion that came up in Caan.

Andrew in one of workshops, a developer asked if there was any certification available.

Judy half a year ago it was rare now I hear all the time.

Kathleen here it is happening a lot now. We recommend the six steps for certification of the site. They can put on the home page and the date that it was reviewed.

Andrew what was quite a bit of the discussion, can developers …

Kathleen we have ten or eleven web developing vendors that are qualified to do this.

Sean I thought at one point that Brain Bench had a certification.

Judy they had a fee based process test.

Sarah who does the review.

Kathleen our committee which is all volunteers.

Sarah Judy are there liability issues around this.

Judy yes there is every worry in the world. We didn't speak about liability at that meeting.

Sarah if someone can't navigate the site if it has been certified they could sue.

Judy the web guidelines are not policy if the access fails it would be because the governing body that adapted the guidelines would have responsibility for. If one follows the normal standards and procedures, trying to follow something that something is not automatically testable.

Sarah I am seeing a corporation that follows the guidelines. Because this is a complicated thing. Well wait a minute. Know what I mean?

Judy there is a whole host of issues. Safe harbor, corporations wanting if they comply that they would have some degree of immunity and so forth. It is normal to develop testing process around standards. In various countries. To be developed later in the details of the certification development. In any case so that people can see there some of the stuff that is about certification. Try to revisit that in the next month or two. Fit in our second quarter work. How does that sound?

Good yes from two voices.

Judy more discussions on priorities and other deliverables. In regard for other things from Caan. The minutes will be available next week. On the implementation suite, to re-integrate the suite. If you follow the link from the agenda. There are still something wrong with this. I will also have those minutes available. If you go to implementation page, the collapsed versions. Changing that icon. In the implementation plan. I won't through the changes in Caan, how carefully we were tracking those. We are trying to get our process including our EO working group. I've been going through all our comments in all our meetings. There is a chance we missed a chance to address some the formal comments. We haven't been when something comes in from the editors list. …This is starting to happen but isn't all in place. Any questions or comments on that. What that means, is that we may have some or a few things to revisit on the list to close out the list. I don't think we can get it out before the CSUN meeting. Questions or comments?

Next time we'll have a list of comments that occurred and go back and confirm them.

Sarah is there a list of attendees that were at that meeting. How different from here.

Judy fifty percent were regulars, and half thinking about joining. Maybe eight or ten were regular members. Ralph Jenkins from IBM, Norway, Spain, some people may join, but aren't regular members.

Audrey what audience were they coming from.

Judy some corporate, and working closely with their governments, the folks from Norway, and Spain, in UK. A diverse group. Ok I will close that issue for the implementation plan. The biggest batch of comments is on the sub page for evaluating web sites for accessibility. I wanted to check on registration. The agenda on Saturday 2 to 4 a brief review first quarter and second. Some them may decide to become regular members. FAQ on Sunday morning session. Add in the issue of template development. In the joint activity on that .

Helle I think that is a great idea.

Judy in the afternoon we would have people with disabilities use the web. Whether or not to keep the business case. My concern if we do have an issues list I am not sure where to put that in.

Helle sometimes when we have these face to face meeting and people who are not regular, and a lot of changes happen and then go back to the regular teleconference. The new input slows down the process.

Judy don't bring up the implementation suite?

Helle we could say now we finished this document. Then send out for review.

Judy that is what would be doing next week. We aren't that effective about going on issues on line together. Helle are you asking could you be more specific don't bring up the implementation suite there, or how people with disabilities? I agree that is dangerous to bringup with a new group of people.

Helle don't take the implementation plan to the CSUN meeting and get it out for review.

Judy do people want to check for stray issues?

Sarah that will come out in the review process. Asking about the comments we have already received?

Judy we haven't adequately inventoried these.

Sarah Helle is saying not to bring them up at the CSUN meeting.

Helle right.

Judy let me inventory the outstanding issues, and the we could review online. And then send out. Too much is stray. We'll wait to our next teleconference. I would like to work out some collaborative issue tracking. Andrew Audrey, and Sarah sound like you will be a part of that. I think we are done for the day.

Helle on the how to choose authoring tools document. How close is that to an ending. '

Judy Sarah sent me some minor edits. There are two or three substantive edits. One or two markup.\

Helle I am leaving for LA on Sunday. I won't be looking online until after Easter.

Judy If there are issues, about translating. Send those now.

Kathleen I have a question about the documents for certification program.

Judy if you have issues for certification send it, but be careful about what you are thinking about. In April we will meet, …in April the fifth, and the twelth. In terms of Wednesday meeting they seem to be getting more poplular.

Andrew the seventh of April. It is before work rather than during work.

Judy can be hard to do two meetings in the week. Maybe the tenth, that would be the Wednesday. I need to skip the nineteenth because I will be in Beijing. The 26th I guess what I will do is fill in the April and May on Fridays.

Last revised 23 March, 2002 by Judy Brewer

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