QA Working Group Teleconference Monday, 25-August-2003 -- Scribe: (KD) Karl Dubost (W3C, WG co-chair) Attendees: (PC) Patrick Curran (Sun Microsystems) (KD) Karl Dubost (W3C, WG co-chair) (DH) Dominique Hazaël-Massieux (W3C) (LH) Lofton Henderson (CGMO - WG co-chair) (OT) Olivier Théreaux (W3C - IG co-chair) (MS) Mark Skall (NIST) (DM) David Marston (VV) Vanitha Venkatraman (Sun Microsystems) Regrets: (AT) Andrew Thackrah (Open Group) (LR) Lynne Rosenthal (NIST - IG co-chair) (SM) Sandra Martinez (NIST) (dd) Dimitris Dimitriadis (Ontologicon) (KG) Kirill Gavrylyuk (Microsoft) Absent: (PF) Peter Fawcett (RealNetworks) Summary of New Action Items: AI-20030825-01 LH Contact Kirill for New microsoft member in the WG ??? AI-20030825-02 OT Ask for Bridge for a telconf for Wednesday 20030826 AI-20030825-03 PC Present the issues of TestGL for a broader use 20030901 Agenda: 1.) roll call 11am EDT, membership 2.) Any routine business - XHTML Print Last Call Review (7-sep) [0] - Monday 1st Sept (U.S. holiday) cancelled. [- overdue Action Items ] 3.) Status of OpsGL transition to CR - Letter requesting CR 4.) Any SpecGL topics - Schedule/deadline for final SpecGL text - new p-m-l diagrams [1] 5.) TestGL topics - Proposed topics [2] - J.Carroll issues thread [3] - Ref. New TestGL text [6a] - Ref. Annotated Crete TestGL minutes [6b] - Ref. TestGL issues list [6c] 6.) Adjourn 7.) Overflow (12-12:30): available. Previous Telcon Minutes: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-qa-wg/2003Aug/0073 Minutes: 1.) roll call 11am EDT, membership done 2.) Any routine business - XHTML Print Last Call Review (7-sep) [0] done last week. -> KD - Monday 1st Sept (U.S. holiday) cancelled. [- overdue Action Items ] KD: Should we called Microsoft AC Rep and Sun AC Rep for WG participation? LH: I take the action Item to ask to Kirill a new contact. AI-20030825-01 LH Contact Kirill for New microsoft member in the WG ??? LH: Holiday Monday next week. What to do? OT: Move it on Wednesday. AI-20030825-02 OT Ask for Bridge for a telconf for Wednesday 20030826 3.) Status of OpsGL transition to CR - Letter requesting CR LH: About the draft letter for the call. Are we fine? We should send it today. KD: Fine with that. I just need the document with issues and answers. 4.) Any SpecGL topics - Schedule/deadline for final SpecGL text - new p-m-l diagrams [1] LH: We have done a good job on Spec GL. We have a good chance to have the disposition of comments document ready by next week. Mark has to produce a Test Assertions document. MS: It's a huge task LH: yes DM: ??? talking about DOV DH: Yes DOV are now on 2.2.6 5.) TestGL topics - Proposed topics [2] - J.Carroll issues thread [3] - Ref. New TestGL text [6a] - Ref. Annotated Crete TestGL minutes [6b] - Ref. TestGL issues list [6c] LH: We move to listen Patrick for Test GL topics. PC: Should we actively ask for People previous experiences in the W3C WG. MS: We do not have so much time, but I'm not quite sure how we would be able to incorporate them in TestGL. LH: We could have done more, but we have done more than what has been said by Jeremy. We proposed two times to the OWL WG to review our stuff, they refused. We are talking about publishing a Last Call soon. MS: We want at least have information from the test leaders verbally or written. KD: We have a list, if we send mails to Test Leaders, we should have precise questions. PC: I would prefer a teleconf to have precise answers. LH: That's a good idea, PC. We have been talking about going to Last Call in november 2003. PC: I would prefer to have people on a call and to ask them what do they think about our document and not wait only Last Call. MS: The ideal situation would not be to restrict the discussion to the test leaders. But we take the chance to limit the completion of the document. LH: We will miss resources to have an ideal method. PC: Maybe we can do both. That our document is a way to approach the testing, but we would like to have another view. LH: It would be good to have different point of views. Let's use the next WD as a platform for a pro-active discussion. Test Driven Development PC: Jeremy Caroll has raised the issue that our guidelines are waterfall model based, as the tests come after the spec. But maybe sometimes our GL are too oriented as Jeremy presented it. We don't say in our charter that we only do conformance testing. should we broaden the scope by addressing quality testing? MS: We are encouraging people to do in a certain way. DH: W3C WGs will be interested as much by interoperability testing and conformance testing. KD: We should look at the Test GL and show that it's not incompatible with other methodologies, and if there's an incompatibilty we should address it. DM: I don't think we should encourage XP for Spec Development. LH: Issues drive for tests, but tests drive for issues as well. SVG has a new rule, when you propose a new syntax it has to come with the test case. The way the SVG TS has been used as an interoperability TS even if it has been designed as a conformance TS. DH: We should not restrict ourselves to Conformance Materials, but there might be also interoperability tests. We should try as much as possible to stay very generic. MS: Conformance is one of the thing that contribute to interoperability tests. PC: There are some areas where XP will be beneficial. LH: We could in the discussion and scope the different possibilities. KD: We should do a TS to test Test Guidelines. Something like each CP we are writing to test them against different kind of development of test materials. PC: I agree that we should not put barriers for other methodologies. MS: We are trying to have a document which adresses Spec and Implementation. LH: The end result is important, but there's more than one way to get there. KD: PC, Could you make a list of comments that will show what are the issues. PC: Yes there are a few issues, for example, in the text we could encourage a bit more early testing. AI-20030825-03 PC Present the issues of TestGL for a broader use 20030901 6.) Adjourn done [0] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/chairs/2003JulSep/0020.html [1] http://www.w3.org/QA/WG/2003/02/qaframe-spec-uun#profile-module-level [2] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-qa-wg/2003Aug/0071.html [3] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-qa/2003Jul/0004.html [6a] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-qa-wg/2003Aug/att-0046/TestGL-guidelines.html [6b] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-qa-wg/2003Aug/0047.html [6c] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-qa-wg/2003Aug/att-0048/TestGL-issues.html