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12:52:38 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/03/26-xhtml-irc
RRSAgent IRC Bot: logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/03/26-xhtml-irc ←
12:52:52 <Steven> rrsagent, make log public
Steven Pemberton: rrsagent, make log public ←
12:53:06 <Steven> Meeting: XHTML2 WG Virtual FtF
12:53:13 <Steven> Chair: Roland
12:54:47 <Steven> zakim, room for 8 at 13:00z for 240 mins?
Steven Pemberton: zakim, room for 8 at 13:00z for 240 mins? ←
12:54:49 <Zakim> ok, Steven; conference Team_(xhtml)13:00Z scheduled with code 26634 (CONF4) at 13:00z for 240 minutes until 1700Z; however, please note that capacity is now overbooked
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, Steven; conference Team_(xhtml)13:00Z scheduled with code 26634 (CONF4) at 13:00z for 240 minutes until 1700Z; however, please note that capacity is now overbooked ←
12:55:39 <oedipus> agenda: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/xhtml2/wiki/2009-03-10-FtF-Agenda#2009-03-26
12:55:51 <oedipus> scribe: Gregory_Rosmaita
(Scribe set to Gregory Rosmaita)
12:55:57 <oedipus> ScribeNick: oedipus
12:56:03 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes
rrsagent, make minutes ←
12:56:03 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/26-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus
RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/26-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus ←
12:56:10 <Steven> code is CONF4
Steven Pemberton: code is CONF4 ←
12:56:24 <Steven> 26634
Steven Pemberton: 26634 ←
12:56:36 <Steven> Steven has changed the topic to: Code is CONF4 (26634)
Steven Pemberton: Steven has changed the topic to: Code is CONF4 (26634) ←
12:56:59 <Zakim> Team_(xhtml)13:00Z has now started
Zakim IRC Bot: Team_(xhtml)13:00Z has now started ←
12:57:01 <Zakim> +Roland_Merrick
Zakim IRC Bot: +Roland_Merrick ←
12:57:17 <Roland> Zakim, Roland_Merrick is Roland
Roland Merrick: Zakim, Roland_Merrick is Roland ←
12:57:17 <Zakim> +Roland; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +Roland; got it ←
12:57:33 <Zakim> +Gregory_Rosmaita
Zakim IRC Bot: +Gregory_Rosmaita ←
12:57:35 <Zakim> -Gregory_Rosmaita
Zakim IRC Bot: -Gregory_Rosmaita ←
12:57:35 <Zakim> +Gregory_Rosmaita
Zakim IRC Bot: +Gregory_Rosmaita ←
12:59:40 <Zakim> + +46.7.06.02.aaaa
Zakim IRC Bot: + +46.7.06.02.aaaa ←
12:59:58 <oedipus> previous: http://www.w3.org/2009/03/10-xhtml-minutes.html
13:00:10 <oedipus> zakim, aaaa is Markus
zakim, aaaa is Markus ←
13:00:10 <Zakim> +Markus; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +Markus; got it ←
13:00:16 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes
rrsagent, make minutes ←
13:00:16 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/26-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus
RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/26-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus ←
13:00:30 <Steven> zakim, dial steven-617
Steven Pemberton: zakim, dial steven-617 ←
13:00:30 <Zakim> ok, Steven; the call is being made
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, Steven; the call is being made ←
13:00:32 <Zakim> +Steven
Zakim IRC Bot: +Steven ←
13:01:40 <oedipus> TOPIC: Agenda Review
13:01:56 <Roland> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/xhtml2/wiki/2009-03-10-FtF-Agenda#2009-03-26
Roland Merrick: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/xhtml2/wiki/2009-03-10-FtF-Agenda#2009-03-26 ←
13:02:40 <oedipus> 4 XHTML2 items: the P content model, Navigation (nl in or out?), Semantics and Elements versus Attributes, how to incorportate ITS
4 XHTML2 items: the P content model, Navigation (nl in or out?), Semantics and Elements versus Attributes, how to incorportate ITS ←
13:02:55 <oedipus> RM: start with news from the A.C. meeting once reach critical mass
Roland Merrick: start with news from the A.C. meeting once reach critical mass ←
13:03:16 <oedipus> SP: would very much like to report, but want shane and mark to be here when i do
Steven Pemberton: would very much like to report, but want shane and mark to be here when i do ←
13:03:57 <oedipus> RM: brief update on PER
Roland Merrick: brief update on PER ←
13:04:20 <oedipus> zakim, who is here?
zakim, who is here? ←
13:04:20 <Zakim> On the phone I see Roland, Gregory_Rosmaita, Markus, Steven
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Roland, Gregory_Rosmaita, Markus, Steven ←
13:04:21 <Zakim> On IRC I see alessio, mgylling, Roland, Zakim, RRSAgent, Steven, oedipus, trackbot
Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see alessio, mgylling, Roland, Zakim, RRSAgent, Steven, oedipus, trackbot ←
13:05:33 <Zakim> +??P17
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P17 ←
13:05:41 <oedipus> MG: Shane said he'd be late yesterday
Markus Gylling: Shane said he'd be late yesterday ←
13:05:48 <oedipus> zakim, ??P17 is Alessio
zakim, ??P17 is Alessio ←
13:05:48 <Zakim> +Alessio; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +Alessio; got it ←
13:05:49 <alessio> zakim, ??P17 is Alessio
Alessio Cartocci: zakim, ??P17 is Alessio ←
13:05:49 <Zakim> I already had ??P17 as Alessio, alessio
Zakim IRC Bot: I already had ??P17 as Alessio, alessio ←
13:06:17 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes
rrsagent, make minutes ←
13:06:17 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/26-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus
RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/26-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus ←
13:06:53 <oedipus> scribe's note: [steven ping outliers]
scribe's note: [steven ping outliers] ←
13:07:43 <oedipus> minutes from last regularly scheduled meeting: http://www.w3.org/2009/03/25-xhtml-minutes.html
minutes from last regularly scheduled meeting: http://www.w3.org/2009/03/25-xhtml-minutes.html ←
13:08:06 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes
rrsagent, make minutes ←
13:08:06 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/26-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus
RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/26-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus ←
13:08:46 <oedipus> RM: brief update with PER?
Roland Merrick: brief update with PER? ←
13:08:50 <oedipus> TOPIC: PER Update
13:09:34 <oedipus> SP: didn't make friday deadline due to AC meetings; have to get fiinished; still moritorium this week on publishing due to AC meeting, should be published next week, if all goes according to plan
Steven Pemberton: didn't make friday deadline due to AC meetings; have to get fiinished; still moritorium this week on publishing due to AC meeting, should be published next week, if all goes according to plan ←
13:09:45 <oedipus> RM: just matter of questoinnaires?
Roland Merrick: just matter of questoinnaires? ←
13:10:21 <oedipus> SP: PER has to be voted upon; extra administrivia - creating detailed questionnaires with pointers (creating now - have to go out simultaneously with PER anouncement)
Steven Pemberton: PER has to be voted upon; extra administrivia - creating detailed questionnaires with pointers (creating now - have to go out simultaneously with PER anouncement) ←
13:10:26 <oedipus> RM: that's all we need do?
Roland Merrick: that's all we need do? ←
13:10:28 <oedipus> SP: yes
Steven Pemberton: yes ←
13:10:37 <oedipus> RM: any other administrivia?
Roland Merrick: any other administrivia? ←
13:10:57 <oedipus> scribe's note: deafining silence
scribe's note: deafining silence ←
13:12:27 <oedipus> GJR: in response to feedback and discussion at last virtual f2f i have updated the "for" attribute proposal
Gregory Rosmaita: in response to feedback and discussion at last virtual f2f i have updated the "for" attribute proposal ←
13:12:28 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/xhtml2/wiki/ProposedElements/forAttribute
http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/xhtml2/wiki/ProposedElements/forAttribute ←
13:13:11 <oedipus> GJR: changes: proposed for Text Attributes collection, not Core collection
Gregory Rosmaita: changes: proposed for Text Attributes collection, not Core collection ←
13:14:10 <oedipus> 1. That the for/id mechanism, which is already broadly supported in user agents and assistive technologies, be repurposed and extended in XHTML2 to provide explicit bindings between labelling text and the object or objects that text labels;
1. That the for/id mechanism, which is already broadly supported in user agents and assistive technologies, be repurposed and extended in XHTML2 to provide explicit bindings between labelling text and the object or objects that text labels; ←
13:14:10 <oedipus> 2. That the for/id mechanism serve as a means of re-using values for: ABBR, D (the single letter "dialogue" element), DFN;
2. That the for/id mechanism serve as a means of re-using values for: ABBR, D (the single letter "dialogue" element), DFN; ←
13:14:10 <oedipus> 3. That the for/id mechanism serve as a means of binding a quotation, contained in the Q element, and a corresponding CITE declaration which identifies the source of the quote;
3. That the for/id mechanism serve as a means of binding a quotation, contained in the Q element, and a corresponding CITE declaration which identifies the source of the quote; ←
13:14:11 <oedipus> 4. That the for/id mechanism serve as a means of marking text which has been inserted, contained in an INS, and that which it is intended to replace, contained in a DEL tag, as illustrated below;
4. That the for/id mechanism serve as a means of marking text which has been inserted, contained in an INS, and that which it is intended to replace, contained in a DEL tag, as illustrated below; ←
13:14:13 <Zakim> +McCarron
Zakim IRC Bot: +McCarron ←
13:14:21 <ShaneM> zakim, McCarron is ShaneM
Shane McCarron: zakim, McCarron is ShaneM ←
13:14:21 <Zakim> +ShaneM; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +ShaneM; got it ←
13:14:37 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes
rrsagent, make minutes ←
13:14:37 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/26-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus
RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/26-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus ←
13:15:18 <oedipus> TOPIC: News & Notes - AC Meeting Report
13:15:32 <oedipus> SP: much of AC meeting, but not all, in sphere of HTML5 and XHTML2
Steven Pemberton: much of AC meeting, but not all, in sphere of HTML5 and XHTML2 ←
13:16:40 <oedipus> SP: started monday morning with panel - XHTML2 side represented by myself and ben adida (made cross-continental day trip); neutral people: Larry McMaster from Adobe; and HTML5 people represented mainly by David Baron
Steven Pemberton: started monday morning with panel - XHTML2 side represented by myself and ben adida (made cross-continental day trip); neutral people: Larry McMaster from Adobe; and HTML5 people represented mainly by David Baron ←
13:17:19 <oedipus> SP: nothing much to report about it; Hegeret was chair; put questions to panel; people in audience put questions as well -- no demos, just Q&A
Steven Pemberton: nothing much to report about it; Hegeret was chair; put questions to panel; people in audience put questions as well -- no demos, just Q&A ←
13:17:24 <oedipus> RM: link to AC minutes?
Roland Merrick: link to AC minutes? ←
13:17:58 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/2009/03/23-ac-minutes.html
http://www.w3.org/2009/03/23-ac-minutes.html ←
13:18:07 <Steven> http://www.w3.org/2009/03/23-ac-minutes#item02
Steven Pemberton: http://www.w3.org/2009/03/23-ac-minutes#item02 ←
13:18:09 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/2009/03/22-ac-minutes
http://www.w3.org/2009/03/22-ac-minutes ←
13:18:13 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/2009/03/24-ac-minutes
http://www.w3.org/2009/03/24-ac-minutes ←
13:19:21 <oedipus> SP: Chaals McN web standards oriented; Larry MM neutral; Sam Ruby co-chair of HTML WG; David Baron works for Mozilla, very much HTML5er; Henry Thompson, Ben Adida and myself (Steven Pemberton)
Steven Pemberton: Chaals McN web standards oriented; Larry MM neutral; Sam Ruby co-chair of HTML WG; David Baron works for Mozilla, very much HTML5er; Henry Thompson, Ben Adida and myself (Steven Pemberton) ←
13:19:57 <oedipus> SP: at least 2 negative comments from audience: Daniel Glazman (not there physically but on IRC) - very anti-XHTML2
Steven Pemberton: at least 2 negative comments from audience: Daniel Glazman (not there physically but on IRC) - very anti-XHTML2 ←
13:21:01 <oedipus> SP: Arun (represents mozilla) - need to ask why against XHTML2 in W3C? don't think mozilla is anti-XHTML2, but hard to separate personal opinions from corporate agendas; aim is to close down XHTML2
Steven Pemberton: Arun (represents mozilla) - need to ask why against XHTML2 in W3C? don't think mozilla is anti-XHTML2, but hard to separate personal opinions from corporate agendas; aim is to close down XHTML2 ←
13:21:21 <oedipus> SP: good feedback after panel; lots of red herrings being spread in discussion; tried to expose falicies
Steven Pemberton: good feedback after panel; lots of red herrings being spread in discussion; tried to expose falicies ←
13:21:40 <oedipus> SP: after that meeting had breakout groups - about 20 in XHTML2 breakout group
Steven Pemberton: after that meeting had breakout groups - about 20 in XHTML2 breakout group ←
13:22:13 <oedipus> SP: not minuted in IRC, hand-made minutes - trying to find if up in w3c space yet
Steven Pemberton: not minuted in IRC, hand-made minutes - trying to find if up in w3c space yet ←
13:23:02 <oedipus> SP: 2 breakout groups: 1st day: discuss issues (extended panel) - on second day, discussion on what to do with situation
Steven Pemberton: 2 breakout groups: 1st day: discuss issues (extended panel) - on second day, discussion on what to do with situation ←
13:23:51 <oedipus> SP: second breakout more interesting; discussion unencumbered by knowledge of what XHTML2 is all about; Raman and Charlie Wiecha of IBM knes about XHTML2, but rest of participants very shallow knowledge
Steven Pemberton: second breakout more interesting; discussion unencumbered by knowledge of what XHTML2 is all about; Raman and Charlie Wiecha of IBM knes about XHTML2, but rest of participants very shallow knowledge ←
13:24:25 <oedipus> SP: asked who is using 2 technologies; one person said, "since HTML5 seeks to make all pages conformant to HTML5, HTML5 is what people use
Steven Pemberton: asked who is using 2 technologies; one person said, "since HTML5 seeks to make all pages conformant to HTML5, HTML5 is what people use ←
13:24:44 <oedipus> SP: explained modularization and the packaging of modules to create XHTML2
Steven Pemberton: explained modularization and the packaging of modules to create XHTML2 ←
13:25:10 <oedipus> SP: because our charter has always been modularization, modules are deliverables; XHTML2 is a collectoin
Steven Pemberton: because our charter has always been modularization, modules are deliverables; XHTML2 is a collectoin ←
13:25:39 <oedipus> SP: Arun surprised that there are big companies using XHTML and XForms
Steven Pemberton: Arun surprised that there are big companies using XHTML and XForms ←
13:26:11 <oedipus> SP: meeting concluded with agreement that Sam Ruby and Steven Pemberton should work on merging HTML5 and XHTML2
Steven Pemberton: meeting concluded with agreement that Sam Ruby and Steven Pemberton should work on merging HTML5 and XHTML2 ←
13:26:52 <oedipus> SP: made it very clear in meeting that these aren't 2 slightly different markup languages, because underlying MVC architecture in XHTML2, that is laacking in HTMl5; would have to get HTML5 WG to accept that architecture so 2 can be merged
Steven Pemberton: made it very clear in meeting that these aren't 2 slightly different markup languages, because underlying MVC architecture in XHTML2, that is laacking in HTMl5; would have to get HTML5 WG to accept that architecture so 2 can be merged ←
13:27:11 <oedipus> q+
q+ ←
13:28:24 <oedipus> SP: if choice between merging and not merging, think should keep separate unless agree to accept XForms and extensibility
Steven Pemberton: if choice between merging and not merging, think should keep separate unless agree to accept XForms and extensibility ←
13:29:57 <oedipus> SP: SamR and i can discuss to ascertain options
Steven Pemberton: SamR and i can discuss to ascertain options ←
13:30:08 <oedipus> SP: in conclusion, think that we are now in stronger position
Steven Pemberton: in conclusion, think that we are now in stronger position ←
13:30:44 <oedipus> SP: 2 things can happen: HTML5 people reject collaboration or we do merge and HTML5 people required to take our approaches on board (m12n, MVC, etc.)
Steven Pemberton: 2 things can happen: HTML5 people reject collaboration or we do merge and HTML5 people required to take our approaches on board (m12n, MVC, etc.) ←
13:30:56 <oedipus> SP: either of those 2 choices much better than shutting down XHTML2
Steven Pemberton: either of those 2 choices much better than shutting down XHTML2 ←
13:31:03 <oedipus> q?
q? ←
13:31:22 <oedipus> SP: SamRuby is new co-chair of HTML5 - very positive interaction with him
Steven Pemberton: SamRuby is new co-chair of HTML5 - very positive interaction with him ←
13:31:52 <oedipus> SP: Sam Ruby wants to work together, but a lot of work to herd that enourmous herd of cats in HTML WG
Steven Pemberton: Sam Ruby wants to work together, but a lot of work to herd that enourmous herd of cats in HTML WG ←
13:32:33 <oedipus> SP: doubt that core HTML5 people will accept collaboration
Steven Pemberton: doubt that core HTML5 people will accept collaboration ←
13:32:41 <ShaneM> zakim, code?
Shane McCarron: zakim, code? ←
13:32:41 <Zakim> the conference code is 26634 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), ShaneM
Zakim IRC Bot: the conference code is 26634 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), ShaneM ←
13:33:08 <oedipus> GJR: did sam mention the initative at mozilla to produce a rival spec to HTML5?
Gregory Rosmaita: did sam mention the initative at mozilla to produce a rival spec to HTML5? ←
13:33:08 <oedipus> http://groups.google.com/group/mozilla.dev.platform/browse_thread/thread/0c2bbb6ed726800b
http://groups.google.com/group/mozilla.dev.platform/browse_thread/thread/0c2bbb6ed726800b ←
13:33:08 <oedipus> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=478665
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=478665 ←
13:34:14 <Zakim> +??P15
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P15 ←
13:34:28 <oedipus> RM: take more stable to have third version of HTML5
Roland Merrick: take more stable to have third version of HTML5 ←
13:34:47 <oedipus> RM: pragmatic - how to achieve a deliverable
Roland Merrick: pragmatic - how to achieve a deliverable ←
13:34:51 <Tina> Zakim, P15 is Tina
Tina Holmboe: Zakim, P15 is Tina ←
13:34:51 <Zakim> sorry, Tina, I do not recognize a party named 'P15'
Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, Tina, I do not recognize a party named 'P15' ←
13:34:55 <oedipus> SP: wasn't mentioned
Steven Pemberton: wasn't mentioned ←
13:35:04 <oedipus> zakim, +??P15 is Tina
zakim, +??P15 is Tina ←
13:35:04 <Zakim> sorry, oedipus, I do not recognize a party named '+??P15'
Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, oedipus, I do not recognize a party named '+??P15' ←
13:35:09 <oedipus> zakim, ??P15 is Tina
zakim, ??P15 is Tina ←
13:35:09 <Zakim> +Tina; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +Tina; got it ←
13:35:14 <Tina> Thank ye
Tina Holmboe: Thank ye ←
13:35:16 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes
rrsagent, make minutes ←
13:35:16 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/26-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus
RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/26-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus ←
13:35:19 <Tina> Zakim, mute me
Tina Holmboe: Zakim, mute me ←
13:35:19 <Zakim> Tina should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: Tina should now be muted ←
13:35:54 <oedipus> GJR: previous pointers: Rob Sayre of IBM is producing a new draft which is hixie's draft minus new inventions plus all the stuff that was removed
Gregory Rosmaita: previous pointers: Rob Sayre of IBM is producing a new draft which is hixie's draft minus new inventions plus all the stuff that was removed ←
13:36:18 <oedipus> RM: will be taking features from HTML5 spec and adding them on; means of incrementally deploying HTML5
Roland Merrick: will be taking features from HTML5 spec and adding them on; means of incrementally deploying HTML5 ←
13:36:19 <Steven> http://blog.360.yahoo.com/blog-TBPekxc1dLNy5DOloPfzVvFIVOWMB0li?p=978
Steven Pemberton: http://blog.360.yahoo.com/blog-TBPekxc1dLNy5DOloPfzVvFIVOWMB0li?p=978 ←
13:36:26 <oedipus> GJR: being deployed by fiat now
Gregory Rosmaita: being deployed by fiat now ←
13:36:29 <Tina> Zakim, unmute me
Tina Holmboe: Zakim, unmute me ←
13:36:29 <Zakim> Tina should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: Tina should no longer be muted ←
13:36:41 <oedipus> SM: more socially acceptable
Shane McCarron: more socially acceptable ←
13:37:11 <oedipus> RM: extensibility already being done by implementation by fiat of HTML5
Roland Merrick: extensibility already being done by implementation by fiat of HTML5 ←
13:37:31 <oedipus> SP: one discussion at AC meeting in first day's breakout group was lack of extensibility
Steven Pemberton: one discussion at AC meeting in first day's breakout group was lack of extensibility ←
13:37:48 <oedipus> SP: consensus of breakout group was extensibility needs to be supported
Steven Pemberton: consensus of breakout group was extensibility needs to be supported ←
13:37:51 <oedipus> q+
q+ ←
13:38:01 <oedipus> SP: from POV of merging, extensibility essential
Steven Pemberton: from POV of merging, extensibility essential ←
13:38:14 <oedipus> SP: long discussions about extensibility and what needs to be able to be done
Steven Pemberton: long discussions about extensibility and what needs to be able to be done ←
13:38:30 <oedipus> SM: agreed upon definition of term "extensibility"?
Shane McCarron: agreed upon definition of term "extensibility"? ←
13:39:23 <oedipus> SP: no definition or agreement on what would fall under rubric of extensibility; put forward strong view that people should be able to add own elements and attributes in standard way to foster new forms; cited XBL as example
Steven Pemberton: no definition or agreement on what would fall under rubric of extensibility; put forward strong view that people should be able to add own elements and attributes in standard way to foster new forms; cited XBL as example ←
13:39:34 <oedipus> SP: when i trace minutes for breakout groups will post link
Steven Pemberton: when i trace minutes for breakout groups will post link ←
13:39:38 <oedipus> ack oed
ack oed ←
13:40:14 <oedipus> GJR: from WAI/PF's point of view extensibility and namespacing is essential, otherwise we will end up with ARIA 1.0 hard coded into HTML5, but we are already working on ARIA 2.0
Gregory Rosmaita: from WAI/PF's point of view extensibility and namespacing is essential, otherwise we will end up with ARIA 1.0 hard coded into HTML5, but we are already working on ARIA 2.0 ←
13:41:05 <oedipus> GJR: WAI/PF needs to retain control over ARIA's vocabulary and definitions
Gregory Rosmaita: WAI/PF needs to retain control over ARIA's vocabulary and definitions ←
13:41:22 <oedipus> SP: some people surprised that ARIA sprang from XHTML Role Module
Steven Pemberton: some people surprised that ARIA sprang from XHTML Role Module ←
13:41:54 <oedipus> SP: good to have BenA there on first day; would be wrong to give XML serialization to a group of people who fundamentally oppose and disllike XML/XHTML
Steven Pemberton: good to have BenA there on first day; would be wrong to give XML serialization to a group of people who fundamentally oppose and disllike XML/XHTML ←
13:41:59 <Zakim> -ShaneM
Zakim IRC Bot: -ShaneM ←
13:42:10 <oedipus> s/would be/Ben stated that it would be/
s/would be/Ben stated that it would be/ ←
13:42:13 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes
rrsagent, make minutes ←
13:42:14 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/26-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus
RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/26-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus ←
13:42:29 <oedipus> RM: return to this later - have a few comments
Roland Merrick: return to this later - have a few comments ←
13:42:46 <oedipus> SP: worth watching discussion on AC forum; have to be on AC to contribute
Steven Pemberton: worth watching discussion on AC forum; have to be on AC to contribute ←
13:43:03 <oedipus> GJR: one could always use www-archive for comments pointed at AC
Gregory Rosmaita: one could always use www-archive for comments pointed at AC ←
13:43:25 <oedipus> SP: encouraged by meeting; interested in how the rest of the HTML WG responds to combining 2 groups
Steven Pemberton: encouraged by meeting; interested in how the rest of the HTML WG responds to combining 2 groups ←
13:43:34 <oedipus> RM: should consider ramifications for XHTML
Roland Merrick: should consider ramifications for XHTML ←
13:43:58 <oedipus> SP: LarryMM suggested i co-chair with Sam - not feasible
Steven Pemberton: LarryMM suggested i co-chair with Sam - not feasible ←
13:46:46 <Zakim> +ShaneM
Zakim IRC Bot: +ShaneM ←
13:46:56 <Steven> s/not feasible/not my idea of fun at the moment :-)/
Steven Pemberton: s/not feasible/not my idea of fun at the moment :-)/ ←
13:46:57 <oedipus> RM: first 2 topics also being worked on by HTML5
RM: first 2 topics also being worked on by HTML5 ←
13:47:07 <oedipus> TOPIC: The P content model
13:47:13 <oedipus> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2009Jan/0014.html
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2009Jan/0014.html ←
13:47:28 <Steven> http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/34257/ac2009-breakout1/results
Steven Pemberton: http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/34257/ac2009-breakout1/results ←
13:47:32 <oedipus> RM: HTML5 doing much of what we are doing with P - placing limitations on it
Roland Merrick: HTML5 doing much of what we are doing with P - placing limitations on it ←
13:47:54 <Tina> Zakim, mute me
Tina Holmboe: Zakim, mute me ←
13:47:54 <Zakim> Tina should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: Tina should now be muted ←
13:47:57 <oedipus> SP: pasted pointer to breakout session described above into IRC
Steven Pemberton: pasted pointer to breakout session described above into IRC ←
13:48:19 <Steven> http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/34257/ac2009-breakout2/results
Steven Pemberton: http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/34257/ac2009-breakout2/results ←
13:48:23 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes
rrsagent, make minutes ←
13:48:23 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/26-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus
RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/26-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus ←
13:48:38 <oedipus> SP: day 2 hasn't been posted yet - Sam Ruby making minutes
Steven Pemberton: day 2 hasn't been posted yet - Sam Ruby making minutes ←
13:49:25 <Zakim> -ShaneM
Zakim IRC Bot: -ShaneM ←
13:49:48 <Zakim> +ShaneM
Zakim IRC Bot: +ShaneM ←
13:50:03 <oedipus> TH (from cited post): "I would argue that common concept of a paragraph is quite different
TH (from cited post): "I would argue that common concept of a paragraph is quite different ←
13:50:03 <oedipus> from that we currently use in the XHTML draft, and that we should
from that we currently use in the XHTML draft, and that we should ←
13:50:03 <oedipus> change it so that it reflect the way a paragraph is normally understood
change it so that it reflect the way a paragraph is normally understood ←
13:50:03 <oedipus> by authors, namely the way it is currently defined in the XHTML 1.*
by authors, namely the way it is currently defined in the XHTML 1.* ←
13:50:03 <oedipus> series languages."
series languages." ←
13:50:47 <oedipus> TH (via post): "Note that I do not in any way claim there are no need to render, for instance, a paragraph on the side of, or even around, a table. What I am saying is that the structure of a paragraph does not admit itself to contain a table, a pre, or even a blockquote. A list is an edge case, but should we allow this I suggest the creation of an inline list element type."
TH (via post): "Note that I do not in any way claim there are no need to render, for instance, a paragraph on the side of, or even around, a table. What I am saying is that the structure of a paragraph does not admit itself to contain a table, a pre, or even a blockquote. A list is an edge case, but should we allow this I suggest the creation of an inline list element type." ←
13:51:06 <oedipus> RM: P content model as defined in present draft cause anyone a problem
Roland Merrick: P content model as defined in present draft cause anyone a problem ←
13:51:38 <oedipus> SP: background: when originally designing text part of XHTML2, had a number of comments about the P content model not matching what perception of P is
Steven Pemberton: background: when originally designing text part of XHTML2, had a number of comments about the P content model not matching what perception of P is ←
13:52:12 <oedipus> SP: P defined in HTML4x too simple - could not embed images or table in paragraph; request was for things embedded in P be part of content model
Steven Pemberton: P defined in HTML4x too simple - could not embed images or table in paragraph; request was for things embedded in P be part of content model ←
13:52:50 <oedipus> SP: current content model of P is an attempt to do that - represent as much as possible the context of the paragraph, but also attempt to avoid P nested in P - P nested in TABLE cannot have child P
Steven Pemberton: current content model of P is an attempt to do that - represent as much as possible the context of the paragraph, but also attempt to avoid P nested in P - P nested in TABLE cannot have child P ←
13:53:15 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2009/ED-xhtml2-20090205/mod-structural.html#edef_structural_p
http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2009/ED-xhtml2-20090205/mod-structural.html#edef_structural_p ←
13:53:46 <oedipus> from current Editor's draft: "In comparison with earlier versions of HTML, where a paragraph could only contain inline text, XHTML2's paragraphs represent the concept of a paragraph, and so may contain lists, blockquotes, pre's and tables as well as inline text. Note however that they may not contain directly nested p elements."
from current Editor's draft: "In comparison with earlier versions of HTML, where a paragraph could only contain inline text, XHTML2's paragraphs represent the concept of a paragraph, and so may contain lists, blockquotes, pre's and tables as well as inline text. Note however that they may not contain directly nested p elements." ←
13:53:52 <Steven> (PCDATA | Text | List | blockcode | blockquote | pre | table )*
Steven Pemberton: (PCDATA | Text | List | blockcode | blockquote | pre | table )* ←
13:54:20 <oedipus> GJR notes he has proposal to deprecate TABLE for layout/style as BLOCKQUOTE for that use was deprecated in HTML4x
GJR notes he has proposal to deprecate TABLE for layout/style as BLOCKQUOTE for that use was deprecated in HTML4x ←
13:55:22 <oedipus> SP: always been opinion of this WG; don't explicitly say "deprecated", but agree that TABLEs are TABLEs and stylesheets should be used for layout
Steven Pemberton: always been opinion of this WG; don't explicitly say "deprecated", but agree that TABLEs are TABLEs and stylesheets should be used for layout ←
13:55:51 <oedipus> SP: proposed TABLE role="presentation" doesn't undo the damage, in fact almost encourages it
Steven Pemberton: proposed TABLE role="presentation" doesn't undo the damage, in fact almost encourages it ←
13:55:59 <oedipus> GJR: strong agreement - wrong approach
Gregory Rosmaita: strong agreement - wrong approach ←
13:56:17 <oedipus> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2009Jan/0014.html
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2009Jan/0014.html ←
13:57:19 <oedipus> AC: no presentation - OBJECT should be used to embed video, audio, or presentation
Alessio Cartocci: no presentation - OBJECT should be used to embed video, audio, or presentation ←
13:57:42 <oedipus> AC: more like a user-modality for TABLE - agree with SP and GJR that layout tables should be banned
Alessio Cartocci: more like a user-modality for TABLE - agree with SP and GJR that layout tables should be banned ←
13:59:36 <oedipus> SP: understand TH's point of view - current model allows one to represent data in that way; there are also those who belive that a P can have an embeded table or list - content doesn't change because child of P - styling up to stylesheets; neither POV is disallowed - accomodates both- up to author to decide what to use
Steven Pemberton: understand TH's point of view - current model allows one to represent data in that way; there are also those who belive that a P can have an embeded table or list - content doesn't change because child of P - styling up to stylesheets; neither POV is disallowed - accomodates both- up to author to decide what to use ←
13:59:49 <oedipus> TH (from post) "But frankly I feel we have a problem. When humans communicate we do so by agreeing on the of words - and various other things outside the scope of this comment - so that when I say banana, you know its not an orange of which I speak."
TH (from post) "But frankly I feel we have a problem. When humans communicate we do so by agreeing on the of words - and various other things outside the scope of this comment - so that when I say banana, you know its not an orange of which I speak." ←
14:00:12 <ShaneM> zakim, who is here
Shane McCarron: zakim, who is here ←
14:00:12 <Zakim> ShaneM, you need to end that query with '?'
Zakim IRC Bot: ShaneM, you need to end that query with '?' ←
14:00:16 <ShaneM> zakim, who is here?
Shane McCarron: zakim, who is here? ←
14:00:16 <Zakim> On the phone I see Roland, Gregory_Rosmaita, Markus, Steven, Alessio, Tina (muted), ShaneM
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Roland, Gregory_Rosmaita, Markus, Steven, Alessio, Tina (muted), ShaneM ←
14:00:18 <Zakim> On IRC I see ShaneM, Tina, alessio, mgylling, Roland, Zakim, RRSAgent, Steven, oedipus, trackbot
Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see ShaneM, Tina, alessio, mgylling, Roland, Zakim, RRSAgent, Steven, oedipus, trackbot ←
14:00:25 <oedipus> tina?
tina? ←
14:00:29 <Tina> I am, but noise in office
Tina Holmboe: I am, but noise in office ←
14:00:44 <oedipus> tina, can you explain your proposed changes to P content model
tina, can you explain your proposed changes to P content model ←
14:00:57 <Tina> oedipus: certainly. We keep the one currently in use for HTML.
Gregory Rosmaita: certainly. We keep the one currently in use for HTML. [ Scribe Assist by Tina Holmboe ] ←
14:01:12 <oedipus> RM: would like more examples - if want P element with example and discussion of this issue - could do this way (compatible with past) or new way
Roland Merrick: would like more examples - if want P element with example and discussion of this issue - could do this way (compatible with past) or new way ←
14:01:37 <oedipus> SP: TH wants to exclude people who believe P is something different than what she is proposing
Steven Pemberton: TH wants to exclude people who believe P is something different than what she is proposing ←
14:01:53 <oedipus> RM: irritating when have to change prose into a list
Roland Merrick: irritating when have to change prose into a list ←
14:02:25 <oedipus> RM: if write normal english: ingredients are: a) , b), c), but cannot style as list because is prose list
Roland Merrick: if write normal english: ingredients are: a) , b), c), but cannot style as list because is prose list ←
14:02:33 <oedipus> RM: that is standard natural language usage
Roland Merrick: that is standard natural language usage ←
14:03:10 <Roland> ingredients are: a; b; c.
Roland Merrick: ingredients are: a; b; c. ←
14:03:14 <oedipus> s/a) , b), c), / a) ; b) ; c);/
s/a) , b), c), / a) ; b) ; c);/ ←
14:03:19 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes
rrsagent, make minutes ←
14:03:19 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/26-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus
RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/26-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus ←
14:03:32 <oedipus> SP: including a list in P is perfectly valid
Steven Pemberton: including a list in P is perfectly valid ←
14:03:39 <oedipus> RM: examples would help
Roland Merrick: examples would help ←
14:04:24 <oedipus> SP: opened a book "a case in point is blogs:" followed by list of 10 items; i content that in natural language usage that is a single paragraph, but HTML doesn't allow the list to be part of the P
Steven Pemberton: opened a book "a case in point is blogs:" followed by list of 10 items; i content that in natural language usage that is a single paragraph, but HTML doesn't allow the list to be part of the P ←
14:04:46 <oedipus> GJR: agree - whether list is prose or formatted as list, belongs to the P and should be inside the P
Gregory Rosmaita: agree - whether list is prose or formatted as list, belongs to the P and should be inside the P ←
14:04:53 <alessio> +1
Alessio Cartocci: +1 ←
14:04:56 <Tina> A suggestion, as quoted from me, above would be to allow lists - possibly inline lists - but exclude other use.
Tina Holmboe: A suggestion, as quoted from me, above would be to allow lists - possibly inline lists - but exclude other use. ←
14:05:05 <oedipus> RM: alternative: leave as is, insert 2 examples, and note asking for feedback
Roland Merrick: alternative: leave as is, insert 2 examples, and note asking for feedback ←
14:05:46 <oedipus> ACTION - Gregory: draft example of P with prose list and structural list
ACTION - Gregory: draft example of P with prose list and structural list ←
14:05:46 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - -
Trackbot IRC Bot: Sorry, couldn't find user - - ←
14:05:59 <oedipus> ACTION: Gregory - draft example of P with prose list and structural list
ACTION: Gregory - draft example of P with prose list and structural list ←
14:05:59 <trackbot> Created ACTION-65 - - draft example of P with prose list and structural list [on Gregory Rosmaita - due 2009-04-02].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-65 - - draft example of P with prose list and structural list [on Gregory Rosmaita - due 2009-04-02]. ←
14:06:59 <oedipus> tina, could you provide examples of other uses of P?
tina, could you provide examples of other uses of P? ←
14:07:16 <oedipus> or a list of what you would exclude from the P content model?
or a list of what you would exclude from the P content model? ←
14:07:19 <Tina> No, I don't see any reason to continue the discussion, in particular if we are speaking merging the two WGs - HTML 5 design principles, if memory serve, insist on backward compatibility. Until it decided whether to merge or not the discussion is moot.
Tina Holmboe: No, I don't see any reason to continue the discussion, in particular if we are speaking merging the two WGs - HTML 5 design principles, if memory serve, insist on backward compatibility. Until it decided whether to merge or not the discussion is moot. ←
14:07:39 <oedipus> RM: only one causing difficulty with P content model is TABLE
Roland Merrick: only one causing difficulty with P content model is TABLE ←
14:08:07 <oedipus> RM: list, blockquote, pre and table
Roland Merrick: list, blockquote, pre and table ←
14:08:13 <Steven> (PCDATA | Text | List | blockcode | blockquote | pre | table )*
Steven Pemberton: (PCDATA | Text | List | blockcode | blockquote | pre | table )* ←
14:08:16 <oedipus> GJR: why blockquote and not blockcode?
Gregory Rosmaita: why blockquote and not blockcode? ←
14:08:30 <oedipus> SP: blockcode is part of content model
Steven Pemberton: blockcode is part of content model ←
14:08:44 <oedipus> RM: what is normative? DTD or spec?
Roland Merrick: what is normative? DTD or spec? ←
14:08:51 <oedipus> SM: spec always wins
Shane McCarron: spec always wins ←
14:09:03 <oedipus> RM: where spec doesn't include blockcode, bug in DTD
Roland Merrick: where spec doesn't include blockcode, bug in DTD ←
14:09:12 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2009/ED-xhtml2-20090205/mod-structural.html#edef_structural_p
http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2009/ED-xhtml2-20090205/mod-structural.html#edef_structural_p ←
14:09:18 <oedipus> SM: no DTD for XHTML2
Shane McCarron: no DTD for XHTML2 ←
14:09:26 <oedipus> SP: not from DTD but modulariztion code
Steven Pemberton: not from DTD but modulariztion code ←
14:09:40 <oedipus> RM: still looking at what we pointed to originally
Roland Merrick: still looking at what we pointed to originally ←
14:09:48 <oedipus> RM: list, blockquote, pre and TABLE
Roland Merrick: list, blockquote, pre and TABLE ←
14:10:00 <oedipus> SP: english text is wrong - should also include blockcode
Steven Pemberton: english text is wrong - should also include blockcode ←
14:10:19 <oedipus> SP: module text at top is definitive version
Steven Pemberton: module text at top is definitive version ←
14:10:45 <oedipus> RESOLVED: fix XHTML2 prose to include blockcode
RESOLVED: fix XHTML2 prose to include blockcode ←
14:11:05 <oedipus> SM: shouldn't be in text
Shane McCarron: shouldn't be in text ←
14:11:08 <oedipus> SP: plus 1 to that
Steven Pemberton: plus 1 to that ←
14:11:20 <oedipus> GJR: following wiser heads like a lemming
Gregory Rosmaita: following wiser heads like a lemming ←
14:11:29 <oedipus> SM: no other element describes content model in prose
Shane McCarron: no other element describes content model in prose ←
14:11:47 <oedipus> SP: point of english text is to explain diff between XHTML2's P and earlier versions
Steven Pemberton: point of english text is to explain diff between XHTML2's P and earlier versions ←
14:11:55 <oedipus> RM: simple link-back to definition would help
Roland Merrick: simple link-back to definition would help ←
14:12:09 <oedipus> SP: need to get that automated by shane
Steven Pemberton: need to get that automated by shane ←
14:12:31 <oedipus> SP: spec written as small files - by element or attribute, which then get put together in standard way
Steven Pemberton: spec written as small files - by element or attribute, which then get put together in standard way ←
14:12:46 <ShaneM> It should read: In comparison with earlier versions of HTML, where a paragraph could only contain inline text, XHTML2's paragraphs represent a richer content model more consistent with the concept of a paragraph.
Shane McCarron: It should read: In comparison with earlier versions of HTML, where a paragraph could only contain inline text, XHTML2's paragraphs represent a richer content model more consistent with the concept of a paragraph. ←
14:13:02 <oedipus> GJR: plus 1 to shane's proposal
Gregory Rosmaita: plus 1 to shane's proposal ←
14:13:18 <oedipus> RM: talk about attributes, but not content model
Roland Merrick: talk about attributes, but not content model ←
14:13:39 <oedipus> SM: talk about content model elsewhere - may need to reinforce in this module because so large
Shane McCarron: talk about content model elsewhere - may need to reinforce in this module because so large ←
14:14:03 <oedipus> SM: proposed text
Shane McCarron: proposed text ←
14:14:31 <oedipus> SP: is example of P with embedded UL in it
Steven Pemberton: is example of P with embedded UL in it ←
14:15:00 <oedipus> RM: in contrast to what was done in previous versions P /P UL /UL rather than P UL /UL /P
Roland Merrick: in contrast to what was done in previous versions P /P UL /UL rather than P UL /UL /P ←
14:15:13 <oedipus> SM: mistake for us to include references as to how things used to be
Shane McCarron: mistake for us to include references as to how things used to be ←
14:15:35 <oedipus> RM: alternative today - P can contain lists; put side-by-side explaining can do either of these
Roland Merrick: alternative today - P can contain lists; put side-by-side explaining can do either of these ←
14:15:36 <oedipus> SM: ok
Shane McCarron: ok ←
14:16:58 <oedipus> proposed RESOLUTION: "In comparison with earlier versions of HTML, where a paragraph could only contain inline text, XHTML2's paragraphs represent a richer content model more consistent with the concept of a paragraph"
proposed RESOLUTION: "In comparison with earlier versions of HTML, where a paragraph could only contain inline text, XHTML2's paragraphs represent a richer content model more consistent with the concept of a paragraph" ←
14:17:18 <oedipus> RM: not sure need "more consistent" clause
Roland Merrick: not sure need "more consistent" clause ←
14:17:27 <oedipus> proposed RESOLUTION: "In comparison with earlier versions of HTML, where a paragraph could only contain inline text, XHTML2's paragraphs represent a richer content model consistent with the concept of a paragraph"
proposed RESOLUTION: "In comparison with earlier versions of HTML, where a paragraph could only contain inline text, XHTML2's paragraphs represent a richer content model consistent with the concept of a paragraph" ←
14:18:02 <oedipus> RM: richer content model of paragraph should be sufficient
Roland Merrick: richer content model of paragraph should be sufficient ←
14:18:16 <oedipus> proposed RESOLUTION: "In comparison with earlier versions of HTML, where a paragraph could only contain inline text, XHTML2's paragraphs represent a richer content model.
proposed RESOLUTION: "In comparison with earlier versions of HTML, where a paragraph could only contain inline text, XHTML2's paragraphs represent a richer content model. ←
14:18:59 <oedipus> RESOLVED: replace current explanation of P content model with "In comparison with earlier versions of HTML, where a paragraph could only contain inline text, XHTML2's paragraphs represent a richer content model."
RESOLVED: replace current explanation of P content model with "In comparison with earlier versions of HTML, where a paragraph could only contain inline text, XHTML2's paragraphs represent a richer content model." ←
14:19:18 <oedipus> TEN MINUTE BREAK - RECONVENE AT HALF-PAST HOUR
TEN MINUTE BREAK - RECONVENE AT HALF-PAST HOUR ←
14:19:21 <Zakim> -Steven
Zakim IRC Bot: -Steven ←
14:19:22 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes
rrsagent, make minutes ←
14:19:22 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/26-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus
RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/26-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus ←
14:19:26 <Zakim> -Gregory_Rosmaita
Zakim IRC Bot: -Gregory_Rosmaita ←
14:19:28 <Zakim> -Tina
Zakim IRC Bot: -Tina ←
14:19:29 <oedipus> rrsagent, stop log
rrsagent, stop log ←
14:19:29 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'stop log', oedipus. Try /msg RRSAgent help
RRSAgent IRC Bot: I'm logging. I don't understand 'stop log', oedipus. Try /msg RRSAgent help ←
14:19:31 <oedipus> rrsagent, stop
rrsagent, stop ←
14:32:28 <Zakim> +Gregory_Rosmaita
(No events recorded for 12 minutes)
Zakim IRC Bot: +Gregory_Rosmaita ←
14:32:59 <oedipus> TOPIC: Navigation
14:33:12 <oedipus> question: Do we really need four different types of lists in XHTML 2.0?
Scribe problem: the name 'question' does not match any of the 22 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Mark Birbeck Susan Borgrink Christina Bottomley Alessio Cartocci Alexander Graf Markus Gylling Tina Holmboe John Kugelman Luca Mascaro Shane McCarron Roland Merrick Steven Pemberton Michael Rawling Gregory Rosmaita Sebastian Schnitzenbaumer Richard Schwerdtfeger Elias Torres Masataka Yakura Toshihiko Yamakami Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Unknown question: Do we really need four different types of lists in XHTML 2.0? ←
14:33:14 <alessio> zakim, code?
Alessio Cartocci: zakim, code? ←
14:33:14 <Zakim> the conference code is 26634 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), alessio
Zakim IRC Bot: the conference code is 26634 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), alessio ←
14:33:21 <oedipus> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-html/2008May/0005.html
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-html/2008May/0005.html ←
14:33:21 <oedipus> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2008Nov/0015.html
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2008Nov/0015.html ←
14:33:22 <Steven> zakim, dial steven-617
Steven Pemberton: zakim, dial steven-617 ←
14:33:23 <Zakim> ok, Steven; the call is being made
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, Steven; the call is being made ←
14:33:25 <Zakim> +Steven
Zakim IRC Bot: +Steven ←
14:33:35 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
Zakim IRC Bot: +[IPcaller] ←
14:33:43 <alessio> zakim, IPcaller is Alessio
Alessio Cartocci: zakim, IPcaller is Alessio ←
14:33:43 <Zakim> +Alessio; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +Alessio; got it ←
14:33:50 <oedipus> zakim, who is here?
zakim, who is here? ←
14:33:50 <Zakim> On the phone I see Roland, Steven, Markus, Gregory_Rosmaita, Alessio
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Roland, Steven, Markus, Gregory_Rosmaita, Alessio ←
14:33:51 <Zakim> On IRC I see ShaneM, Tina, alessio, mgylling, Roland, Zakim, RRSAgent, Steven, oedipus, trackbot
Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see ShaneM, Tina, alessio, mgylling, Roland, Zakim, RRSAgent, Steven, oedipus, trackbot ←
14:33:59 <Tina> oedipus: an exaggeration, surely.
Gregory Rosmaita: an exaggeration, surely. [ Scribe Assist by Tina Holmboe ] ←
14:34:31 <Zakim> +ShaneM
Zakim IRC Bot: +ShaneM ←
14:34:38 <Tina> My 2 whatsits: yes. We DO need a rich set of lists for various structures that needs to be marked up. I would propose we add an inline-list to the ones we have, plus, of course, a 'menu' or 'navigation'
Tina Holmboe: My 2 whatsits: yes. We DO need a rich set of lists for various structures that needs to be marked up. I would propose we add an inline-list to the ones we have, plus, of course, a 'menu' or 'navigation' ←
14:35:01 <oedipus> current editor's draft definition of NL: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2009/ED-xhtml2-20090205/mod-list.html#edef_list_nl
current editor's draft definition of NL: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2009/ED-xhtml2-20090205/mod-list.html#edef_list_nl ←
14:35:12 <oedipus> RM: do we need 4 kinds of list?
Roland Merrick: do we need 4 kinds of list? ←
14:35:40 <oedipus> RM: discussed - fairly broad concept; item about elements versus attributes topic is related
Roland Merrick: discussed - fairly broad concept; item about elements versus attributes topic is related ←
14:35:45 <oedipus> RM: why did we create NL?
Roland Merrick: why did we create NL? ←
14:36:11 <oedipus> SP: in early days, 1 thing we did was observe web sites to identify things on web sites that represented concepts not represented in common HTML markup
Steven Pemberton: in early days, 1 thing we did was observe web sites to identify things on web sites that represented concepts not represented in common HTML markup ←
14:36:32 <Zakim> -Markus
Zakim IRC Bot: -Markus ←
14:36:56 <oedipus> SP: one thing that we concluded was types of list purely for navigational purposes - semantic advantage (expecially from A11y POV) advantageous; developed before developed Role and RDFa
Steven Pemberton: one thing that we concluded was types of list purely for navigational purposes - semantic advantage (expecially from A11y POV) advantageous; developed before developed Role and RDFa ←
14:37:14 <oedipus> SP: new markup allows NL without new type of element]
Steven Pemberton: new markup allows NL without new type of element] ←
14:37:27 <oedipus> SP: instead of NL, UL role="navigation"
Steven Pemberton: instead of NL, UL role="navigation" ←
14:37:54 <oedipus> RM: device independence group worked on this; large areas of page - are areas devoted to navigation
Roland Merrick: device independence group worked on this; large areas of page - are areas devoted to navigation ←
14:38:05 <Tina> OL, not UL. This is still a rather dramatic conceptual change. Why would we want to do that - and, on the flipside, not then simply have ONE list?
Tina Holmboe: OL, not UL. This is still a rather dramatic conceptual change. Why would we want to do that - and, on the flipside, not then simply have ONE list? ←
14:38:06 <oedipus> RM: not catered for inside markup; navigation is important property
Roland Merrick: not catered for inside markup; navigation is important property ←
14:38:08 <Zakim> +Markus
Zakim IRC Bot: +Markus ←
14:38:23 <oedipus> RM: difference from my POV is navigation is more than list
Roland Merrick: difference from my POV is navigation is more than list ←
14:38:50 <oedipus> RM: HTML5 has NAVIGATION element - useful notion: can be more to navigation than items; headings (primary navigation, secondary navigation)
Roland Merrick: HTML5 has NAVIGATION element - useful notion: can be more to navigation than items; headings (primary navigation, secondary navigation) ←
14:39:05 <oedipus> RM: would like to reframe converstation from NL to NAVIGATION section
Roland Merrick: would like to reframe converstation from NL to NAVIGATION section ←
14:39:14 <Roland> HTML5 : http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/semantics.html#the-nav-element
Roland Merrick: HTML5 : http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/semantics.html#the-nav-element ←
14:39:20 <ShaneM> I agree with Steven that @role can be used to indicate that a section is related to navigation.
Shane McCarron: I agree with Steven that @role can be used to indicate that a section is related to navigation. ←
14:40:06 <oedipus> SP: definitely case that had proposal on table for NL but didn't find consensus in WG; made general decision to use elements for structuring and attributes for semantics; helps us fulfil many requests; if request is for semantics, answer should be use RDFa or Role and leave elements for marking up strcuture
Steven Pemberton: definitely case that had proposal on table for NL but didn't find consensus in WG; made general decision to use elements for structuring and attributes for semantics; helps us fulfil many requests; if request is for semantics, answer should be use RDFa or Role and leave elements for marking up strcuture ←
14:40:13 <oedipus> RM: felt navigation was structure
Roland Merrick: felt navigation was structure ←
14:40:31 <ShaneM> <section role="navigation">...</section>
Shane McCarron: <section role="navigation">...</section> ←
14:40:34 <oedipus> SP: use SECTION role="navigation" is equivalent
Steven Pemberton: use SECTION role="navigation" is equivalent ←
14:40:53 <oedipus> SP: could also use UL role="navigation" or OL role="navigation"
Steven Pemberton: could also use UL role="navigation" or OL role="navigation" ←
14:41:05 <oedipus> SP: can be done by attaching role to SECTION or directly to list
Steven Pemberton: can be done by attaching role to SECTION or directly to list ←
14:41:11 <Tina> Have we agreed to leave *all* semantics to RDFa and @role?
Tina Holmboe: Have we agreed to leave *all* semantics to RDFa and @role? ←
14:41:29 <ShaneM> Tina: No, I don't think so.
Tina Holmboe: No, I don't think so. [ Scribe Assist by Shane McCarron ] ←
14:41:36 <oedipus> RM: OL role="navigation" equals SECTION role="navigation"
Roland Merrick: OL role="navigation" equals SECTION role="navigation" ←
14:42:14 <oedipus> SP: MarkB would say NL wrong because makes list with specific semantic meaning; sturcture is ordered list and structure is navigation; if want section on navigation, use SECTION role="navigation"
Steven Pemberton: MarkB would say NL wrong because makes list with specific semantic meaning; sturcture is ordered list and structure is navigation; if want section on navigation, use SECTION role="navigation" ←
14:42:22 <Tina> ShaneM: that begs the question - which semantics do we leave to elements? We already have three different list types. If they are there for structure only, then why don't we simplify and make one?
Shane McCarron: that begs the question - which semantics do we leave to elements? We already have three different list types. If they are there for structure only, then why don't we simplify and make one? [ Scribe Assist by Tina Holmboe ] ←
14:42:46 <oedipus> SM: context - state of art when introduced NL in visual user agent wasn't possible without heavy scripting; but today, that can be achieved with CSS
Shane McCarron: context - state of art when introduced NL in visual user agent wasn't possible without heavy scripting; but today, that can be achieved with CSS ←
14:42:51 <oedipus> SM: throw out NL
Shane McCarron: throw out NL ←
14:42:54 <oedipus> SP: can live with that
Steven Pemberton: can live with that ←
14:42:57 <oedipus> AC: me too
Alessio Cartocci: me too ←
14:42:59 <oedipus> GJR: me too
Gregory Rosmaita: me too ←
14:43:03 <mgylling> +1
Markus Gylling: +1 ←
14:43:05 <ShaneM> Note that @role already has a predefined value for "navigation"
Shane McCarron: Note that @role already has a predefined value for "navigation" ←
14:43:18 <oedipus> RM: would prefer a NAV element rather than just list
Roland Merrick: would prefer a NAV element rather than just list ←
14:43:56 <oedipus> RM: no element whose specific role is navigation, can be satisfied by assigning role to other structural elements
Roland Merrick: no element whose specific role is navigation, can be satisfied by assigning role to other structural elements ←
14:44:37 <oedipus> SP: kept a lot of elements that aren't strictly necessary because of use-and-practice with list
Steven Pemberton: kept a lot of elements that aren't strictly necessary because of use-and-practice with list ←
14:44:46 <oedipus> SM: extended content model for DL by adding DI
Shane McCarron: extended content model for DL by adding DI ←
14:44:51 <oedipus> SM: very positive move
Shane McCarron: very positive move ←
14:45:14 <oedipus> SM: can't decide if TH making serious point or playing devil's advocate
Shane McCarron: can't decide if TH making serious point or playing devil's advocate ←
14:45:16 <Steven> zakim, who is on the phone?
Steven Pemberton: zakim, who is on the phone? ←
14:45:16 <Zakim> On the phone I see Roland, Steven, Gregory_Rosmaita, Alessio, ShaneM, Markus
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Roland, Steven, Gregory_Rosmaita, Alessio, ShaneM, Markus ←
14:45:18 <oedipus> zakim, who is here?
zakim, who is here? ←
14:45:19 <Zakim> On the phone I see Roland, Steven, Gregory_Rosmaita, Alessio, ShaneM, Markus
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Roland, Steven, Gregory_Rosmaita, Alessio, ShaneM, Markus ←
14:45:21 <Zakim> On IRC I see mgylling, ShaneM, Tina, alessio, Roland, Zakim, RRSAgent, Steven, oedipus, trackbot
Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see mgylling, ShaneM, Tina, alessio, Roland, Zakim, RRSAgent, Steven, oedipus, trackbot ←
14:46:04 <oedipus> SM: appreciate that there is a significant presentational and semantic difference between OL, UL, and DL - DT and DD need to be grouped in order to make sense
Shane McCarron: appreciate that there is a significant presentational and semantic difference between OL, UL, and DL - DT and DD need to be grouped in order to make sense ←
14:46:19 <oedipus> SM: don't think a lot of value removing things people are already familiar with
Shane McCarron: don't think a lot of value removing things people are already familiar with ←
14:46:31 <Tina> It is a serious point in so far as we need to be consistent in where we leave semantic interpretation on element types, and where we move it to roles. Right now the draft is a little bit of this and a little bit of both. If we say that "The markup is for structure" as a general rule then we need only one list structure and extended @role values.
Tina Holmboe: It is a serious point in so far as we need to be consistent in where we leave semantic interpretation on element types, and where we move it to roles. Right now the draft is a little bit of this and a little bit of both. If we say that "The markup is for structure" as a general rule then we need only one list structure and extended @role values. ←
14:46:46 <oedipus> SM: does beg the question: "does it make sense for us to do things in language that we know will not work right in existing UAs?"
Shane McCarron: does beg the question: "does it make sense for us to do things in language that we know will not work right in existing UAs?" ←
14:47:00 <oedipus> RM: not on agenda, but could discuss when return to HTML5 discussion
Roland Merrick: not on agenda, but could discuss when return to HTML5 discussion ←
14:47:16 <oedipus> RM: making incremental changes that make it hard to deploy - is it worth return on investment
Roland Merrick: making incremental changes that make it hard to deploy - is it worth return on investment ←
14:47:29 <oedipus> RM: do we need to introduce DI type of thing to discuss later
Roland Merrick: do we need to introduce DI type of thing to discuss later ←
14:47:35 <oedipus> RM: concrete example?
Roland Merrick: concrete example? ←
14:47:35 <Tina> Since we are already changing or removing things people are already familiar with. Consistency is key.
Tina Holmboe: Since we are already changing or removing things people are already familiar with. Consistency is key. ←
14:47:45 <oedipus> SP: resolution to remove NL?
Steven Pemberton: resolution to remove NL? ←
14:48:02 <oedipus> proposed RESOLUTION: remove NL from XHTML2's List Module
proposed RESOLUTION: remove NL from XHTML2's List Module ←
14:48:08 <oedipus> RM: propose we remove NL
Roland Merrick: propose we remove NL ←
14:48:12 <Steven> and replace with use of @role="navigation"
Steven Pemberton: and replace with use of @role="navigation" ←
14:48:20 <oedipus> GJR: plus 1 with SP's caveat
Gregory Rosmaita: plus 1 with SP's caveat ←
14:48:26 <Steven> as necessary
Steven Pemberton: as necessary ←
14:48:53 <oedipus> SM: we created "navigation" role
Shane McCarron: we created "navigation" role ←
14:49:15 <oedipus> proposed RESOLUTION: remove NL from XHTML2's List Module and replace with use of role="navigation"
proposed RESOLUTION: remove NL from XHTML2's List Module and replace with use of role="navigation" ←
14:49:29 <oedipus> SP: current model for DL wouldn't break existing user agents
Steven Pemberton: current model for DL wouldn't break existing user agents ←
14:49:38 <Steven> I think
Steven Pemberton: I think ←
14:49:44 <oedipus> GJR: agree with SP - will make DL stronger and more useful
Gregory Rosmaita: agree with SP - will make DL stronger and more useful ←
14:49:44 <Steven> +1
Steven Pemberton: +1 ←
14:49:47 <Steven> on resolution
Steven Pemberton: on resolution ←
14:49:53 <mgylling> +1
Markus Gylling: +1 ←
14:49:54 <oedipus> proposed RESOLUTION: remove NL from XHTML2's List Module and replace with use of role="navigation"
proposed RESOLUTION: remove NL from XHTML2's List Module and replace with use of role="navigation" ←
14:49:59 <oedipus> plus 1
plus 1 ←
14:50:05 <ShaneM> Tina: I think there is a (new) trend toward NOT removing things that people are familiar with.http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml/vocab/
Tina Holmboe: I think there is a (new) trend toward NOT removing things that people are familiar with.http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml/vocab/ [ Scribe Assist by Shane McCarron ] ←
14:50:09 <ShaneM> oops... http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml/vocab/
Shane McCarron: oops... http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml/vocab/ ←
14:50:51 <oedipus> definition of navigation from vocab document: "navigation indicates a collection of items suitable for navigating the document or related documents."
definition of navigation from vocab document: "navigation indicates a collection of items suitable for navigating the document or related documents." ←
14:51:35 <oedipus> RM: seem to have gotten a bit mixed up - talking about multiple things
Roland Merrick: seem to have gotten a bit mixed up - talking about multiple things ←
14:51:40 <oedipus> RM: resolution to remove NL
Roland Merrick: resolution to remove NL ←
14:51:44 <oedipus> proposed RESOLUTION: remove NL from XHTML2's List Module and replace with use of role="navigation"
proposed RESOLUTION: remove NL from XHTML2's List Module and replace with use of role="navigation" ←
14:51:52 <ShaneM> +1
Shane McCarron: +1 ←
14:51:52 <Roland> +1
Roland Merrick: +1 ←
14:51:54 <Steven> +1
Steven Pemberton: +1 ←
14:51:55 <alessio> +1
Alessio Cartocci: +1 ←
14:52:00 <oedipus> RESOLVED: remove NL from XHTML2's List Module and replace with use of role="navigation"
RESOLVED: remove NL from XHTML2's List Module and replace with use of role="navigation" ←
14:52:04 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes
rrsagent, make minutes ←
14:52:04 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/26-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus
RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/26-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus ←
14:52:16 <ShaneM> ACTION: Shane to remove the nl element from XHTML 2
ACTION: Shane to remove the nl element from XHTML 2 ←
14:52:16 <trackbot> Created ACTION-66 - Remove the nl element from XHTML 2 [on Shane McCarron - due 2009-04-02].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-66 - Remove the nl element from XHTML 2 [on Shane McCarron - due 2009-04-02]. ←
14:52:46 <oedipus> SM: one related item is DL
Shane McCarron: one related item is DL ←
14:52:53 <oedipus> SP: changes won't change deployment
Steven Pemberton: changes won't change deployment ←
14:52:58 <oedipus> SM: DI would be ignored?
Shane McCarron: DI would be ignored? ←
14:53:04 <oedipus> MG: DI is optional
Markus Gylling: DI is optional ←
14:53:16 <oedipus> GJR: provides nice low-grade binding for DDs
Gregory Rosmaita: provides nice low-grade binding for DDs ←
14:53:35 <oedipus> RM: DI introduced to solve what particular problem?
Roland Merrick: DI introduced to solve what particular problem? ←
14:53:55 <oedipus> "Definition lists vary only slightly from other types of lists in that list items consist of two parts: a term and a description. The term is given by the dt element. The description is given with a dd element. The term and its definition can be grouped within a di element to help clarify the relationship between a term and its definition(s)."
"Definition lists vary only slightly from other types of lists in that list items consist of two parts: a term and a description. The term is given by the dt element. The description is given with a dd element. The term and its definition can be grouped within a di element to help clarify the relationship between a term and its definition(s)." ←
14:54:53 <mgylling> ... di solves a problem that could also be solved with @for...
Markus Gylling: ... di solves a problem that could also be solved with @for... ←
14:55:30 <oedipus> SP: if 2 things are related, DI can express that; presentation: hard to put border around DT and DD; from semantic POV want them to be joined at head and not hip
Steven Pemberton: if 2 things are related, DI can express that; presentation: hard to put border around DT and DD; from semantic POV want them to be joined at head and not hip ←
14:55:47 <oedipus> markus, do you have more to say on "for"
markus, do you have more to say on "for" ←
14:56:09 <oedipus> RM: like paragraph - if don't want to use DI, don't have to
Roland Merrick: like paragraph - if don't want to use DI, don't have to ←
14:56:13 <mgylling> no - I am all for DI.
Markus Gylling: no - I am all for DI. ←
14:56:18 <oedipus> good
good ←
14:56:32 <oedipus> RM: any other potential pitfalls with lists?
Roland Merrick: any other potential pitfalls with lists? ←
14:57:05 <oedipus> SM: added in list module the caption element and hooked into content model for all lists
Shane McCarron: added in list module the caption element and hooked into content model for all lists ←
14:57:07 <ShaneM> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2009/ED-xhtml2-20090205/mod-list.html#s_listmodule
Shane McCarron: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2009/ED-xhtml2-20090205/mod-list.html#s_listmodule ←
14:57:08 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2009/ED-xhtml2-20090205/mod-list.html
http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2009/ED-xhtml2-20090205/mod-list.html ←
14:57:22 <oedipus> RM: lists allow caption
Roland Merrick: lists allow caption ←
14:57:33 <oedipus> GJR: might want to consider LEGEND
Gregory Rosmaita: might want to consider LEGEND ←
14:59:12 <Steven> We need to consider the purposes of LEGEND LABEL and CAPTION
Steven Pemberton: We need to consider the purposes of LEGEND LABEL and CAPTION ←
14:59:21 <oedipus> http://esw.w3.org/topic/PF/XTech/HTML5/TextAlternativeExamples
http://esw.w3.org/topic/PF/XTech/HTML5/TextAlternativeExamples ←
14:59:22 <Steven> and work out whether to merge
Steven Pemberton: and work out whether to merge ←
14:59:42 <alessio> yes, it's a very good point
Alessio Cartocci: yes, it's a very good point ←
15:00:09 <oedipus> SM: haven't addressed use of XForms inline content with other forms of inline content
Shane McCarron: haven't addressed use of XForms inline content with other forms of inline content ←
15:00:23 <oedipus> Use of FIGURE, LEGEND, and @alt
Use of FIGURE, LEGEND, and @alt ←
15:00:23 <oedipus> Three Stages of A Butterfly's Life Example
Three Stages of A Butterfly's Life Example ←
15:00:23 <oedipus> Each of the images in the 3 stages of a butterfly's life REQUIRE alt text and/or labelledby to provide them with unique and appropriate short descriptions, just as each form control in a FIELDSET has its own LABEL defined for it, with the value of the LEGEND element providing a CAPTION-like function for the FIELDSET, so too does LEGEND provide a means of declaratively marking explicit bindings of groups of related objects, as in:
Each of the images in the 3 stages of a butterfly's life REQUIRE alt text and/or labelledby to provide them with unique and appropriate short descriptions, just as each form control in a FIELDSET has its own LABEL defined for it, with the value of the LEGEND element providing a CAPTION-like function for the FIELDSET, so too does LEGEND provide a means of declaratively marking explicit bindings of groups of related objects, as in: ←
15:00:30 <oedipus> <FIGURE aria-labelledby="l1">
<FIGURE aria-labelledby="l1"> ←
15:00:30 <oedipus> <LEGEND id="l1">The Three Stages of a Butterfly's Life Cycle</LEGEND>
<LEGEND id="l1">The Three Stages of a Butterfly's Life Cycle</LEGEND> ←
15:00:30 <oedipus> <IMG alt="Stage 1: The larval stage." src="butterfly1.svg"
<IMG alt="Stage 1: The larval stage." src="butterfly1.svg" ←
15:00:30 <oedipus> longdesc="butterfly1.html">
longdesc="butterfly1.html"> ←
15:00:30 <oedipus> <IMG alt="Stage 2: The pupal stage." src="butterfly2.svg"
<IMG alt="Stage 2: The pupal stage." src="butterfly2.svg" ←
15:00:33 <oedipus> longdesc="butterfly2.html">
longdesc="butterfly2.html"> ←
15:00:35 <oedipus> <IMG alt="Stage 3: The adult stage." src="butterfly3.svg"
<IMG alt="Stage 3: The adult stage." src="butterfly3.svg" ←
15:00:36 <oedipus> longdesc="butterfly3.html">
longdesc="butterfly3.html"> ←
15:00:39 <oedipus> </FIGURE>
</FIGURE> ←
15:00:41 <oedipus> the LEGEND applies to all three images as a collection of related objects, available, for example, in a screen reader situation, either through a verbosity setting or via an extended query, such as MagicKey+TAB reads the alt text of the individual graphic which has focus, MagicKey+TAB pressed twice rapidly (or with a moderator key) provides the user with the LEGEND which describes, tersely, the group to which the individual image belongs, so that the user can b
the LEGEND applies to all three images as a collection of related objects, available, for example, in a screen reader situation, either through a verbosity setting or via an extended query, such as MagicKey+TAB reads the alt text of the individual graphic which has focus, MagicKey+TAB pressed twice rapidly (or with a moderator key) provides the user with the LEGEND which describes, tersely, the group to which the individual image belongs, so that the user can b ←
15:00:47 <oedipus> a) each individual image's short alternative text;
a) each individual image's short alternative text; ←
15:00:48 <oedipus> b) the grouping to which the image belongs (if it is one of a series presented in a FIGURE) or any other modality-specific content contained in HTML5's media-specific elements, including AUDIO, VIDEO, OBJECT and CANVAS;
b) the grouping to which the image belongs (if it is one of a series presented in a FIGURE) or any other modality-specific content contained in HTML5's media-specific elements, including AUDIO, VIDEO, OBJECT and CANVAS; ←
15:01:03 <oedipus> TOPIC: Supplemental Document - Best Practices Guide?
15:01:51 <oedipus> RM: need to orient readers and contextualize use of XHTML2 to alter content and improve usability of content - how to pull pieces of m12n together
Roland Merrick: need to orient readers and contextualize use of XHTML2 to alter content and improve usability of content - how to pull pieces of m12n together ←
15:02:39 <oedipus> GJR: i will send "thoughts on LEGEND" used in PF deliberations over terse descriptors in HTML5 to XHTML2 list
Gregory Rosmaita: i will send "thoughts on LEGEND" used in PF deliberations over terse descriptors in HTML5 to XHTML2 list ←
15:02:57 <oedipus> RM: like examples - pick up as a template and build upon it
Roland Merrick: like examples - pick up as a template and build upon it ←
15:03:33 <oedipus> RM: christina once worked on something similar, but we haven't undertaken anything as a WG
Roland Merrick: christina once worked on something similar, but we haven't undertaken anything as a WG ←
15:03:38 <oedipus> SP: no, we haven't really
Steven Pemberton: no, we haven't really ←
15:03:58 <oedipus> RM: continuing developing document, steven?
Roland Merrick: continuing developing document, steven? ←
15:04:14 <oedipus> SP: received a lot of feedback at AC meeting on how should be structured
Steven Pemberton: received a lot of feedback at AC meeting on how should be structured ←
15:04:26 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes
rrsagent, make minutes ←
15:04:26 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/26-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus
RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/26-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus ←
15:04:31 <Steven> s/feedback/input/
Steven Pemberton: s/feedback/input/ ←
15:05:06 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes
rrsagent, make minutes ←
15:05:06 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/26-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus
RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/26-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus ←
15:05:30 <oedipus> TOPIC: how to incorporate ITS
15:05:36 <oedipus> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2008Dec/0023.html
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2008Dec/0023.html ←
15:05:36 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/tracker/actions/28
http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/tracker/actions/28 ←
15:05:52 <oedipus> SM: does anyone understand the ITS question?
Shane McCarron: does anyone understand the ITS question? ←
15:06:34 <oedipus> SP: background: googletranslate - when automatically translates page, ITS helps markup page to assist process; when i say "window" don't translate because is technical term;
Steven Pemberton: background: googletranslate - when automatically translates page, ITS helps markup page to assist process; when i say "window" don't translate because is technical term; ←
15:07:01 <oedipus> SP: semantic markup with specific domain: meaning of words with respect to other languages
Steven Pemberton: semantic markup with specific domain: meaning of words with respect to other languages ←
15:07:17 <mgylling> http://www.w3.org/TR/its/
Markus Gylling: http://www.w3.org/TR/its/ ←
15:07:36 <oedipus> RM: who is driving this request
Roland Merrick: who is driving this request ←
15:07:41 <oedipus> SP: i18n
Steven Pemberton: i18n ←
15:08:15 <Steven> Then from there, run batch file <cmd
Steven Pemberton: Then from there, run batch file <cmd ←
15:08:15 <Steven> its:translate="no">Build.bat</cmd>.</p>
Steven Pemberton: its:translate="no">Build.bat</cmd>.</p> ←
15:08:29 <oedipus> MG: investigated ITS - 3 options to introduce rules into document - inline (similar to @style), xlink to external document, or put info in HEAD
Markus Gylling: investigated ITS - 3 options to introduce rules into document - inline (similar to @style), xlink to external document, or put info in HEAD ←
15:08:44 <oedipus> MG: not just question of attribute, but should we support XLINK in HEAD, etc.
Markus Gylling: not just question of attribute, but should we support XLINK in HEAD, etc. ←
15:08:54 <oedipus> RM: can link to ITS definition, full stop
Roland Merrick: can link to ITS definition, full stop ←
15:08:57 <oedipus> SM: not an option
Shane McCarron: not an option ←
15:09:05 <oedipus> SP: wouldn't let us do that?
Steven Pemberton: wouldn't let us do that? ←
15:09:22 <oedipus> SM: our architecture doesn't allow for arbitrary content models; need to specificy what goes where
Shane McCarron: our architecture doesn't allow for arbitrary content models; need to specificy what goes where ←
15:09:56 <oedipus> SM: ITS was on rec track; asked us to do LC review; we said fine, but forgot M12n; listened to us and produced modules and went to REC
Shane McCarron: ITS was on rec track; asked us to do LC review; we said fine, but forgot M12n; listened to us and produced modules and went to REC ←
15:10:30 <oedipus> SM: should we incorporate into XHTML 1.2 - no, but i was given action item to put into XHTML2 - too many options, need to pick one
Shane McCarron: should we incorporate into XHTML 1.2 - no, but i was given action item to put into XHTML2 - too many options, need to pick one ←
15:10:43 <oedipus> SM: should ask ITS WG how to use ITS in our module
Shane McCarron: should ask ITS WG how to use ITS in our module ←
15:10:48 <oedipus> RM: ITS WG closed
Roland Merrick: ITS WG closed ←
15:10:56 <oedipus> RM: ITS interest group still active
Roland Merrick: ITS interest group still active ←
15:11:10 <oedipus> RM: should ping them to ask "how do you think this applies to us?"
Roland Merrick: should ping them to ask "how do you think this applies to us?" ←
15:11:24 <oedipus> SP: created something similar to CSS - create rules in HEAD or inline
Steven Pemberton: created something similar to CSS - create rules in HEAD or inline ←
15:11:50 <oedipus> SP: a lot of their stuff we have anyway - don't need @dir because took from us and put in their namespace
Steven Pemberton: a lot of their stuff we have anyway - don't need @dir because took from us and put in their namespace ←
15:12:06 <oedipus> GJR: notes that this is a good trend - similar to timesheets
Gregory Rosmaita: notes that this is a good trend - similar to timesheets ←
15:12:34 <oedipus> SP: translate rules - include their rules into HEAD and then in BODY only thing that is left is translate equals yes or no
Steven Pemberton: translate rules - include their rules into HEAD and then in BODY only thing that is left is translate equals yes or no ←
15:12:53 <oedipus> MG: correct; have schema modules for ITS we can import
Markus Gylling: correct; have schema modules for ITS we can import ←
15:13:02 <oedipus> MG: external sheets via XLink
Markus Gylling: external sheets via XLink ←
15:13:15 <oedipus> MG: should ask if can use LINK element instead
Markus Gylling: should ask if can use LINK element instead ←
15:13:19 <oedipus> RM: sounds reasonable
Roland Merrick: sounds reasonable ←
15:13:52 <oedipus> SP: invite someone from ITS to join us on a call to discuss
Steven Pemberton: invite someone from ITS to join us on a call to discuss ←
15:14:06 <oedipus> GJR: sounds reasonable
Gregory Rosmaita: sounds reasonable ←
15:14:17 <oedipus> SP: should be able to find someone courtesy of RichardI
Steven Pemberton: should be able to find someone courtesy of RichardI ←
15:14:47 <oedipus> ACTION: Steven - talk to Richard to ask if someone from ITS can join an XHTML2 call to discuss this further
ACTION: Steven - talk to Richard to ask if someone from ITS can join an XHTML2 call to discuss this further ←
15:14:47 <trackbot> Created ACTION-67 - - talk to Richard to ask if someone from ITS can join an XHTML2 call to discuss this further [on Steven Pemberton - due 2009-04-02].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-67 - - talk to Richard to ask if someone from ITS can join an XHTML2 call to discuss this further [on Steven Pemberton - due 2009-04-02]. ←
15:15:00 <oedipus> RM: is anyone recognizing ITS?
Roland Merrick: is anyone recognizing ITS? ←
15:15:12 <oedipus> SP: if no one is producing content with it answer is no
Steven Pemberton: if no one is producing content with it answer is no ←
15:15:26 <oedipus> RM: are we the best people to bootstrap this?
Roland Merrick: are we the best people to bootstrap this? ←
15:15:48 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/International/its/tests/its2xquery
http://www.w3.org/International/its/tests/its2xquery ←
15:16:00 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/International/its/itstagset/ImpReport
http://www.w3.org/International/its/itstagset/ImpReport ←
15:16:10 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/International/its/tests/
http://www.w3.org/International/its/tests/ ←
15:17:28 <oedipus> SM: should be bending over backwards to reuse W3C technologies and standards
Shane McCarron: should be bending over backwards to reuse W3C technologies and standards ←
15:17:52 <oedipus> GJR: first principle of WCAG - if pertinent technology exists (such as MathML) use it
Gregory Rosmaita: first principle of WCAG - if pertinent technology exists (such as MathML) use it ←
15:18:01 <Steven> r12a suggests �10 �01yves savourel �01chair of the former WG
Steven Pemberton: r12a suggests �10 �01yves savourel �01chair of the former WG ←
15:18:02 <oedipus> RM: doesn't sound too onerous
Roland Merrick: doesn't sound too onerous ←
15:18:07 <Steven> and cc to Felix of W3C
Steven Pemberton: and cc to Felix of W3C ←
15:18:47 <oedipus> RM: don't need its prefix, just "yes" or "no"
Roland Merrick: don't need its prefix, just "yes" or "no" ←
15:18:55 <oedipus> SM: does spec allow chameleon?
Shane McCarron: does spec allow chameleon? ←
15:19:38 <oedipus> MG: published note on how to incorporate ITS into XHTML family
Markus Gylling: published note on how to incorporate ITS into XHTML family ←
15:19:57 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/International/its/itstagset/ImpReport#conftype1
http://www.w3.org/International/its/itstagset/ImpReport#conftype1 ←
15:20:10 <Steven> ysavourel at translate.com
Steven Pemberton: ysavourel at translate.com ←
15:20:14 <oedipus> processing expections for ITS: http://www.w3.org/International/its/itstagset/ImpReport#conftype2
processing expections for ITS: http://www.w3.org/International/its/itstagset/ImpReport#conftype2 ←
15:20:25 <Roland> http://www.w3.org/TR/xml-i18n-bp/#its-plus-xhtml10
Roland Merrick: http://www.w3.org/TR/xml-i18n-bp/#its-plus-xhtml10 ←
15:20:46 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=3331#c8
http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=3331#c8 ←
15:20:55 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/International/its/techniques/its-techniques.html#integration-its-xhtmlmod
http://www.w3.org/International/its/techniques/its-techniques.html#integration-its-xhtmlmod ←
15:21:12 <oedipus> "Three such markup schemes are described in section ITS Applied to Existing Formats of the latest public Working Draft of Best Practices for XML Internationalization: ITS and TEI, ITS and XHTML 1.0, and ITS and XML Spec. In response to comment Please use XHTML Modularization for defining ITS DTD and Schema, the Working Group has defined an ITS module for XHTML, using the XHTML modularization framework."
"Three such markup schemes are described in section ITS Applied to Existing Formats of the latest public Working Draft of Best Practices for XML Internationalization: ITS and TEI, ITS and XHTML 1.0, and ITS and XML Spec. In response to comment Please use XHTML Modularization for defining ITS DTD and Schema, the Working Group has defined an ITS module for XHTML, using the XHTML modularization framework." ←
15:21:27 <oedipus> MG: roland's pointer the one i was thinking about
Markus Gylling: roland's pointer the one i was thinking about ←
15:21:35 <oedipus> SM: last one GJR put in is what i was looking at
Shane McCarron: last one GJR put in is what i was looking at ←
15:21:53 <oedipus> RM: XHTML M12n 1.1 - http://www.w3.org/TR/xml-i18n-bp/#its-plus-xhtml10
Roland Merrick: XHTML M12n 1.1 - http://www.w3.org/TR/xml-i18n-bp/#its-plus-xhtml10 ←
15:22:45 <oedipus> SM: our treatment of schema allows us to bring in elements and attributes from other namespaces; don't have to include in our namespace if already exists elsewhere and is in use
Shane McCarron: our treatment of schema allows us to bring in elements and attributes from other namespaces; don't have to include in our namespace if already exists elsewhere and is in use ←
15:23:40 <oedipus> "1) ITS and TEI: ITS rules is allowed to appear in the TEI metadata section (the teiHeader). The local ITS attributes are added to the global attribute set for all elements. ITS span is added to the content pattern model.common (most inline contexts)."
"1) ITS and TEI: ITS rules is allowed to appear in the TEI metadata section (the teiHeader). The local ITS attributes are added to the global attribute set for all elements. ITS span is added to the content pattern model.common (most inline contexts)." ←
15:23:40 <oedipus> "2) ITS and XHTML 1.0: ITS rules is allowed to appear in the XHTML head element (the group HeadOpts.mix has been redefined accordingly). The local ITS attributes are added to the global attribute set for all elements (the group Common.attrib has been redefined accordingly). Ruby is not used since the ruby specification already defines an XHTML module for ruby."
"2) ITS and XHTML 1.0: ITS rules is allowed to appear in the XHTML head element (the group HeadOpts.mix has been redefined accordingly). The local ITS attributes are added to the global attribute set for all elements (the group Common.attrib has been redefined accordingly). Ruby is not used since the ruby specification already defines an XHTML module for ruby." ←
15:23:40 <oedipus> "3) ITS and XML Spec: ITS rules is allowed to appear in the XML Spec header element (rules has been added as the last element to the XML Spec entity header.mdl). The local ITS attributes are added to the global attribute set for all elements (they have been added to the entity common.att). ITS ruby is allowed to appear as an inline element (it has been added to the entity p.pcd.mix)."
"3) ITS and XML Spec: ITS rules is allowed to appear in the XML Spec header element (rules has been added as the last element to the XML Spec entity header.mdl). The local ITS attributes are added to the global attribute set for all elements (they have been added to the entity common.att). ITS ruby is allowed to appear as an inline element (it has been added to the entity p.pcd.mix)." ←
15:26:18 <oedipus> SP: reading from spec: "one way to associate document with external ITS rules is to use optional XLINK"
Steven Pemberton: reading from spec: "one way to associate document with external ITS rules is to use optional XLINK" ←
15:27:16 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/tracker/actions/28
http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/tracker/actions/28 ←
15:27:41 <Steven> so it sounds optional
Steven Pemberton: so it sounds optional ←
15:27:49 <oedipus> SM: questions we have: don't support XLink, so can we use LINK? leave in ITS space and use their suggested model?
Shane McCarron: questions we have: don't support XLink, so can we use LINK? leave in ITS space and use their suggested model? ←
15:28:23 <oedipus> SM: inclination is to invite someone to discuss XLink - for content model, take what proposed for XHTML 1.1 leave in ITS namespace and do what they said
Shane McCarron: inclination is to invite someone to discuss XLink - for content model, take what proposed for XHTML 1.1 leave in ITS namespace and do what they said ←
15:28:57 <oedipus> proposed RESOLVED: XHTML2 WG will discuss ITS integration and use of LINK versus XLink with representative from i18n
proposed RESOLVED: XHTML2 WG will discuss ITS integration and use of LINK versus XLink with representative from i18n ←
15:29:06 <oedipus> RESOLVED: XHTML2 WG will discuss ITS integration and use of LINK versus XLink with representative from i18n
RESOLVED: XHTML2 WG will discuss ITS integration and use of LINK versus XLink with representative from i18n ←
15:29:10 <oedipus> SP: already invited them
Steven Pemberton: already invited them ←
15:29:12 <oedipus> SM: thank you
Shane McCarron: thank you ←
15:29:21 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes
rrsagent, make minutes ←
15:29:21 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/26-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus
RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/26-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus ←
15:29:38 <oedipus> RM: anything else on ITS?
Roland Merrick: anything else on ITS? ←
15:30:18 <oedipus> TOPIC: Clearing Out Old Action Items
15:30:24 <oedipus> RM: quantity values question
Roland Merrick: quantity values question ←
15:31:24 <oedipus> SP: when we have href type and src type which allows one to define what values are suitable; in HTML4 have type on HREF - comment that says what is on other end - just a claim, not firm basis for content negotiation
Steven Pemberton: when we have href type and src type which allows one to define what values are suitable; in HTML4 have type on HREF - comment that says what is on other end - just a claim, not firm basis for content negotiation ←
15:31:40 <oedipus> SP: in XHTML2 have list of types used for content negotiation
Steven Pemberton: in XHTML2 have list of types used for content negotiation ←
15:32:27 <oedipus> SP: comment that don't take into account QValues
Steven Pemberton: comment that don't take into account QValues ←
15:32:53 <oedipus> SP: been boning up on QValues
Steven Pemberton: been boning up on QValues ←
15:33:28 <oedipus> RM: should add to traker
Roland Merrick: should add to traker ←
15:33:36 <oedipus> s/traker/tracker
s/traker/tracker ←
15:34:34 <oedipus> SP: if say "here is an image" may be in 10 diff formats, but want SVG or PNG to be first choice, if user agent can't handle SVG or PNG, have to provide something UA says can accept
Steven Pemberton: if say "here is an image" may be in 10 diff formats, but want SVG or PNG to be first choice, if user agent can't handle SVG or PNG, have to provide something UA says can accept ←
15:35:14 <oedipus> SP: answer may be no qvalues in source
Steven Pemberton: answer may be no qvalues in source ←
15:35:19 <oedipus> SM: think that is the answer
Shane McCarron: think that is the answer ←
15:35:38 <oedipus> SM: QValue responsibility of UA; intersection of what UA wants and what author can offer
Shane McCarron: QValue responsibility of UA; intersection of what UA wants and what author can offer ←
15:35:55 <oedipus> s/what UA wants/what UA can handle/
s/what UA wants/what UA can handle/ ←
15:36:10 <oedipus> SP: order of things in specification important - take first or highest q?
Steven Pemberton: order of things in specification important - take first or highest q? ←
15:36:33 <oedipus> SP: when UA specifies what is willing to accept does it mean willing to accept them equally
Steven Pemberton: when UA specifies what is willing to accept does it mean willing to accept them equally ←
15:36:38 <oedipus> SM: have to check HTTP spec
Shane McCarron: have to check HTTP spec ←
15:36:48 <oedipus> SM: order is probably significant - will check
Shane McCarron: order is probably significant - will check ←
15:38:10 <Steven> ACTION: Steven to work out how to merge q values in the specification of content negotiation with hreftype etc.
ACTION: Steven to work out how to merge q values in the specification of content negotiation with hreftype etc. ←
15:38:10 <trackbot> Created ACTION-68 - Work out how to merge q values in the specification of content negotiation with hreftype etc. [on Steven Pemberton - due 2009-04-02].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-68 - Work out how to merge q values in the specification of content negotiation with hreftype etc. [on Steven Pemberton - due 2009-04-02]. ←
15:38:52 <oedipus> http://htmlwg.mn.aptest.com/cgi-bin/xhtml2-issues/XHTML-2.0?user=guest;statetype=-1;upostype=-1;changetype=-1;restype=-1
http://htmlwg.mn.aptest.com/cgi-bin/xhtml2-issues/XHTML-2.0?user=guest;statetype=-1;upostype=-1;changetype=-1;restype=-1 ←
15:39:26 <oedipus> RM: work through 16 open issues on shane's tracker?
Roland Merrick: work through 16 open issues on shane's tracker? ←
15:39:28 <oedipus> SM: not now
Shane McCarron: not now ←
15:39:31 <oedipus> RM: when?
Roland Merrick: when? ←
15:39:46 <oedipus> SM: not sure what to do with 5 year old comments
Shane McCarron: not sure what to do with 5 year old comments ←
15:39:54 <oedipus> RM: are any of the issues still relevant?
Roland Merrick: are any of the issues still relevant? ←
15:40:22 <oedipus> RM: how to deal with them?
Roland Merrick: how to deal with them? ←
15:40:35 <oedipus> GJR: port them to W3C tracker and close those that are moot?
Gregory Rosmaita: port them to W3C tracker and close those that are moot? ←
15:41:11 <oedipus> "QNames are the way that the working group, and indeed the W3C, handle having
"QNames are the way that the working group, and indeed the W3C, handle having ←
15:41:11 <oedipus> data that comes from differing sources. The working group is not willing to
data that comes from differing sources. The working group is not willing to ←
15:41:11 <oedipus> change course at this time
change course at this time ←
15:41:32 <oedipus> SM: http://htmlwg.mn.aptest.com/cgi-bin/xhtml2-issues/XHTML-2.0?id=7659;user=guest;statetype=-1;upostype=-1;changetype=-1;restype=-1 needs to be split up
Shane McCarron: http://htmlwg.mn.aptest.com/cgi-bin/xhtml2-issues/XHTML-2.0?id=7659;user=guest;statetype=-1;upostype=-1;changetype=-1;restype=-1 needs to be split up ←
15:41:37 <oedipus> SP: some just comments
Steven Pemberton: some just comments ←
15:41:46 <oedipus> SP: several of these things don't need to do
Steven Pemberton: several of these things don't need to do ←
15:41:58 <oedipus> SP: can answer, but no action necessary
Steven Pemberton: can answer, but no action necessary ←
15:42:07 <oedipus> SP: real issues: keep BR (which i think we do)
Steven Pemberton: real issues: keep BR (which i think we do) ←
15:42:15 <oedipus> SM: were instructed by TBL to keep BR
Shane McCarron: were instructed by TBL to keep BR ←
15:42:32 <oedipus> SP: a lot of editorial comments
Steven Pemberton: a lot of editorial comments ←
15:43:03 <Tina> What is the structural purpose of BR? That should be the only reason why we keep it or toss it.
Tina Holmboe: What is the structural purpose of BR? That should be the only reason why we keep it or toss it. ←
15:43:42 <Tina> Yes. What's our use case for keeping it?
Tina Holmboe: Yes. What's our use case for keeping it? ←
15:43:49 <oedipus> SP: could say that WG received this remark and is not required to answer; get input from more recent suggestions
Steven Pemberton: could say that WG received this remark and is not required to answer; get input from more recent suggestions ←
15:44:35 <Zakim> -Gregory_Rosmaita
Zakim IRC Bot: -Gregory_Rosmaita ←
15:44:45 <Tina> Then I suggest we get rid of BR as more-or-less physical markup.
Tina Holmboe: Then I suggest we get rid of BR as more-or-less physical markup. ←
15:44:57 <Zakim> -Steven
Zakim IRC Bot: -Steven ←
15:45:52 <Zakim> -Alessio
Zakim IRC Bot: -Alessio ←
15:46:16 <Zakim> +Gregory_Rosmaita
Zakim IRC Bot: +Gregory_Rosmaita ←
15:46:45 <oedipus> tina, do you want to work on a proposal to eliminate BR?
tina, do you want to work on a proposal to eliminate BR? ←
15:47:06 <oedipus> deprecate in favor of use of L ... /L
deprecate in favor of use of L ... /L ←
15:48:18 <oedipus> anne van k on L: "Didn't BLOCKCODE preserve whitespace by default? What do we need the L
anne van k on L: "Didn't BLOCKCODE preserve whitespace by default? What do we need the L ←
15:48:18 <oedipus> element for here? And as mentioned before, BR is still needed. I also
element for here? And as mentioned before, BR is still needed. I also ←
15:48:18 <oedipus> think that a better use case for L should be presented, this one is bad."
think that a better use case for L should be presented, this one is bad." ←
15:48:28 <Tina> oedipus, I don't have the time to write up anything formal, I'm afraid.
Tina Holmboe: oedipus, I don't have the time to write up anything formal, I'm afraid. ←
15:48:44 <oedipus> me neither, but i might as well take a whack at it right now
me neither, but i might as well take a whack at it right now ←
15:50:44 <oedipus> GJR's take: BR is a presentational concept; to express that a line of content is intended to be interpreted as single line of content, authors should use the L element to mark the beginning and end of a line.
GJR's take: BR is a presentational concept; to express that a line of content is intended to be interpreted as single line of content, authors should use the L element to mark the beginning and end of a line. ←
15:50:51 <oedipus> zakim, who is here?
zakim, who is here? ←
15:50:52 <Zakim> On the phone I see Roland, ShaneM, Markus, Gregory_Rosmaita
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Roland, ShaneM, Markus, Gregory_Rosmaita ←
15:50:55 <Zakim> On IRC I see Roland, mgylling, ShaneM, Tina, alessio, Zakim, RRSAgent, Steven, oedipus, trackbot
Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see Roland, mgylling, ShaneM, Tina, alessio, Zakim, RRSAgent, Steven, oedipus, trackbot ←
15:51:48 <Steven> zakim, dial steven-617
Steven Pemberton: zakim, dial steven-617 ←
15:51:48 <Zakim> ok, Steven; the call is being made
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, Steven; the call is being made ←
15:51:50 <Zakim> +Steven
Zakim IRC Bot: +Steven ←
15:51:56 <oedipus> RM: keep differences from status-quo to a minimum - makes easier to deploy in existing browsers
Roland Merrick: keep differences from status-quo to a minimum - makes easier to deploy in existing browsers ←
15:52:27 <Tina> oedipus: I agree with that.
Gregory Rosmaita: I agree with that. [ Scribe Assist by Tina Holmboe ] ←
15:52:36 <oedipus> SM: "1.1.2. Backwards compatibility
Shane McCarron: "1.1.2. Backwards compatibility ←
15:52:50 <oedipus> SM: will update as appropriate
Shane McCarron: will update as appropriate ←
15:53:00 <oedipus> SM: 1.1.2. Backwards compatibility
Shane McCarron: 1.1.2. Backwards compatibility ←
15:53:06 <Tina> We are already deviating from that, however, by changing content models. Removing presentational markup is surely a good idea.
Tina Holmboe: We are already deviating from that, however, by changing content models. Removing presentational markup is surely a good idea. ←
15:53:14 <oedipus> SM: wants BR back; instructed to do it, but haven't done it
Shane McCarron: wants BR back; instructed to do it, but haven't done it ←
15:53:16 <oedipus> q+
q+ ←
15:53:22 <oedipus> GJR's take: BR is a presentational concept; to express that a line of content is intended to be interpreted as single line of content, authors should use the L element to mark the beginning and end of a line.
GJR's take: BR is a presentational concept; to express that a line of content is intended to be interpreted as single line of content, authors should use the L element to mark the beginning and end of a line. ←
15:53:53 <oedipus> SM: agree
Shane McCarron: agree ←
15:54:31 <oedipus> RM: back to pragmatic - authors need to understand what to do - how much benefit from being purists, how much from being practical - can we live with either or
Roland Merrick: back to pragmatic - authors need to understand what to do - how much benefit from being purists, how much from being practical - can we live with either or ←
15:54:48 <oedipus> SP: can live with keeping it, but with a note stating that L is preferred method
Steven Pemberton: can live with keeping it, but with a note stating that L is preferred method ←
15:54:59 <oedipus> ack oe
ack oe ←
15:55:03 <ShaneM> ACTION: Shane to put br element back into XHTML 2 with a note that there are better ways to mark up lines.
ACTION: Shane to put br element back into XHTML 2 with a note that there are better ways to mark up lines. ←
15:55:03 <trackbot> Created ACTION-69 - Put br element back into XHTML 2 with a note that there are better ways to mark up lines. [on Shane McCarron - due 2009-04-02].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-69 - Put br element back into XHTML 2 with a note that there are better ways to mark up lines. [on Shane McCarron - due 2009-04-02]. ←
15:55:20 <oedipus> proposed Resolution: restore BR
proposed Resolution: restore BR ←
15:55:25 <oedipus> SP: objections?
Steven Pemberton: objections? ←
15:55:27 <oedipus> GJR: object
Gregory Rosmaita: object ←
15:55:42 <oedipus> SP: if objections, don't have resolution
Steven Pemberton: if objections, don't have resolution ←
15:56:48 <oedipus> RM: GJR, do you believe we should not do this?
Roland Merrick: GJR, do you believe we should not do this? ←
15:57:23 <Zakim> +??P3
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P3 ←
15:57:29 <alessio> zakim, ??P3 is Alessio
Alessio Cartocci: zakim, ??P3 is Alessio ←
15:57:29 <Zakim> +Alessio; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +Alessio; got it ←
15:57:32 <oedipus> GJR: willing to compromise on BR if we add note on use of L
Gregory Rosmaita: willing to compromise on BR if we add note on use of L ←
15:58:00 <Tina> I see no good reason to put a presentational element back in. This isn't as much about pragmatic solutions - CSS can do the visual if need be.
Tina Holmboe: I see no good reason to put a presentational element back in. This isn't as much about pragmatic solutions - CSS can do the visual if need be. ←
15:58:08 <oedipus> GJR: is there any override mechanism for BR?
Gregory Rosmaita: is there any override mechanism for BR? ←
15:58:23 <oedipus> SP: compromise: include BR but mark as deprecated
Steven Pemberton: compromise: include BR but mark as deprecated ←
15:58:25 <oedipus> GJR: yes
Gregory Rosmaita: yes ←
15:58:40 <ShaneM> deprecated? in a legacy br module?
Shane McCarron: deprecated? in a legacy br module? ←
15:58:52 <oedipus> proposed RESOLUTION: re-introduce BR, marking as deprecated, and point out that for accessibility, is much better to use L
proposed RESOLUTION: re-introduce BR, marking as deprecated, and point out that for accessibility, is much better to use L ←
15:59:02 <Steven> +1
Steven Pemberton: +1 ←
15:59:07 <ShaneM> +1
Shane McCarron: +1 ←
15:59:07 <oedipus> GJR: plus 1
Gregory Rosmaita: plus 1 ←
15:59:16 <oedipus> AC: yes
Alessio Cartocci: yes ←
15:59:18 <Roland> +1
Roland Merrick: +1 ←
15:59:19 <mgylling> +1
Markus Gylling: +1 ←
15:59:21 <alessio> +1
Alessio Cartocci: +1 ←
15:59:27 <oedipus> RESOLVED: re-introduce BR, marking as deprecated, and point out that for accessibility, is much better to use L
RESOLVED: re-introduce BR, marking as deprecated, and point out that for accessibility, is much better to use L ←
15:59:33 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes
rrsagent, make minutes ←
15:59:33 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/26-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus
RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/26-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus ←
16:01:37 <oedipus> RM: next one is ADDRESS element
Roland Merrick: next one is ADDRESS element ←
16:02:01 <oedipus> SM: request is make content model for address richer, or introduce a BLOCKADDRESS element
Shane McCarron: request is make content model for address richer, or introduce a BLOCKADDRESS element ←
16:02:12 <oedipus> GJR: isn't this covered by role="contentinfo"
Gregory Rosmaita: isn't this covered by role="contentinfo" ←
16:02:39 <oedipus> vocab doc: "
vocab doc: " ←
16:02:39 <oedipus> contentinfo has meta information about the content on the page or the page as a whole.
contentinfo has meta information about the content on the page or the page as a whole. ←
16:03:01 <Steven> By the way, there is a new rrsagent in the works: http://www.w3.org/2009/CommonScribe
Steven Pemberton: By the way, there is a new rrsagent in the works: http://www.w3.org/2009/CommonScribe ←
16:03:13 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2009/ED-xhtml2-20090205/mod-structural.html#edef_structural_address
http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2009/ED-xhtml2-20090205/mod-structural.html#edef_structural_address ←
16:03:31 <oedipus> SM: not inclined to change from block to inline or to add blockaddress
Shane McCarron: not inclined to change from block to inline or to add blockaddress ←
16:03:41 <oedipus> SP: non-structural element that only adds semantic information
Steven Pemberton: non-structural element that only adds semantic information ←
16:03:56 <oedipus> SP: semantic info is terribly vague - can't extract much sensible out of ADDRESS
Steven Pemberton: semantic info is terribly vague - can't extract much sensible out of ADDRESS ←
16:04:15 <oedipus> RM: HTML5's ADDRESS is not block
Roland Merrick: HTML5's ADDRESS is not block ←
16:04:55 <oedipus> SM: problem is content model restricted;
Shane McCarron: problem is content model restricted; ←
16:05:09 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/semantics.html#the-address-element
http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/semantics.html#the-address-element ←
16:05:38 <oedipus> 'The address element represents the contact information for the section it applies to. If it applies to the body element, then it instead applies to the document as a whole"
'The address element represents the contact information for the section it applies to. If it applies to the body element, then it instead applies to the document as a whole" ←
16:06:07 <Tina> That does appear fairly clear, if not detailed. What is the use case for changing it?
Tina Holmboe: That does appear fairly clear, if not detailed. What is the use case for changing it? ←
16:06:15 <oedipus> "The address element must not contain information other than contact information."
"The address element must not contain information other than contact information." ←
16:06:27 <ShaneM> Tina: the request is to make the content model richer
Tina Holmboe: the request is to make the content model richer [ Scribe Assist by Shane McCarron ] ←
16:07:02 <oedipus> GJR: HTML5 Address is a child of FOOTER
Gregory Rosmaita: HTML5 Address is a child of FOOTER ←
16:07:07 <Tina> If so, do we need to change the element or simply add other elements which go inside it that allows an author to define up the various pieces?
Tina Holmboe: If so, do we need to change the element or simply add other elements which go inside it that allows an author to define up the various pieces? ←
16:07:09 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/semantics.html#the-footer-element
http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/semantics.html#the-footer-element ←
16:07:51 <oedipus> GJR: address is part of FOOTER, but restricted to contact info onlly
Gregory Rosmaita: address is part of FOOTER, but restricted to contact info onlly ←
16:07:58 <oedipus> s/onlly/only
s/onlly/only ←
16:08:05 <oedipus> GJR: in HTML5
Gregory Rosmaita: in HTML5 ←
16:08:29 <ShaneM> Tina: I think we just could make the content model richer.
Tina Holmboe: I think we just could make the content model richer. [ Scribe Assist by Shane McCarron ] ←
16:09:07 <oedipus> Content model for FOOTER in HTML5: "Flow content, but with no heading content descendants, no sectioning content descendants, and no footer element descendants."
Content model for FOOTER in HTML5: "Flow content, but with no heading content descendants, no sectioning content descendants, and no footer element descendants." ←
16:09:45 <oedipus> SM: either add blockaddress or fix rich content model
Shane McCarron: either add blockaddress or fix rich content model ←
16:09:56 <oedipus> SM: objections to making content model of ADDRESS richer?
Shane McCarron: objections to making content model of ADDRESS richer? ←
16:10:01 <oedipus> SM: need to define "richer"
Shane McCarron: need to define "richer" ←
16:10:11 <oedipus> SM: same as SECTION
Shane McCarron: same as SECTION ←
16:10:13 <Tina> ShaneM: not a bad idea. We can keep ADDRESS, then add various elements for marking up specific sections of contact info. Or rely on namespaces for people to use elements from other XMLs.
Shane McCarron: not a bad idea. We can keep ADDRESS, then add various elements for marking up specific sections of contact info. Or rely on namespaces for people to use elements from other XMLs. [ Scribe Assist by Tina Holmboe ] ←
16:10:21 <oedipus> RM: why not say SECTION role="address"
Roland Merrick: why not say SECTION role="address" ←
16:10:54 <oedipus> SP: on other hand, could just say ADDRESS is shorthand for SECTION role="address"
Steven Pemberton: on other hand, could just say ADDRESS is shorthand for SECTION role="address" ←
16:11:08 <oedipus> RM: no difference in semantics for ADDRESS and SECTION role="address"
Roland Merrick: no difference in semantics for ADDRESS and SECTION role="address" ←
16:11:17 <oedipus> RM: need to define semantics of ADDRESS
Roland Merrick: need to define semantics of ADDRESS ←
16:11:47 <oedipus> SM: DIV role="p" is not a substitute for using P - if element has semantics, use the element
Shane McCarron: DIV role="p" is not a substitute for using P - if element has semantics, use the element ←
16:12:27 <oedipus> SM: have ADDRESS element - could say "if need area of document with richer content model and address information, use SECTION role="address"
Shane McCarron: have ADDRESS element - could say "if need area of document with richer content model and address information, use SECTION role="address" ←
16:12:35 <oedipus> RM: no existing "address" role
Roland Merrick: no existing "address" role ←
16:13:06 <oedipus> GJR: when we did ARIA/HTML5 analysis decided that "contentinfo" more broad than HTML's ADDRESS
Gregory Rosmaita: when we did ARIA/HTML5 analysis decided that "contentinfo" more broad than HTML's ADDRESS ←
16:13:27 <oedipus> SM: defer to dublin core or VCard?
Shane McCarron: defer to dublin core or VCard? ←
16:13:45 <Tina> Suggestion: keep <address> as is, and encourage authors to use other markup languages for the specifics.
Scribe problem: the name 'Suggestion' does not match any of the 22 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Mark Birbeck Susan Borgrink Christina Bottomley Alessio Cartocci Alexander Graf Markus Gylling Tina Holmboe John Kugelman Luca Mascaro Shane McCarron Roland Merrick Steven Pemberton Michael Rawling Gregory Rosmaita Sebastian Schnitzenbaumer Richard Schwerdtfeger Elias Torres Masataka Yakura Toshihiko Yamakami Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Unknown Suggestion: keep <address> as is, and encourage authors to use other markup languages for the specifics. [ Scribe Assist by Tina Holmboe ] ←
16:13:52 <oedipus> SM: vocab collection for role is missing fundamental concepts - is that because we are deferring to DC
Shane McCarron: vocab collection for role is missing fundamental concepts - is that because we are deferring to DC ←
16:13:59 <oedipus> SP: do in RDFa instead of role
Steven Pemberton: do in RDFa instead of role ←
16:14:20 <oedipus> RM: on typical page, navigation area, content area, contact area very common - address related to contact info
Roland Merrick: on typical page, navigation area, content area, contact area very common - address related to contact info ←
16:14:29 <oedipus> SM: dublin core values we can use for that
Shane McCarron: dublin core values we can use for that ←
16:14:42 <oedipus> RM: broke up page into appendix, content, copyright, etc.
Roland Merrick: broke up page into appendix, content, copyright, etc. ←
16:15:02 <oedipus> SM: can add a role
Shane McCarron: can add a role ←
16:15:35 <alessio> agree
Alessio Cartocci: agree ←
16:15:38 <oedipus> RM: can state "not changed from HTML4; if want richer mechanism, create it according to the markup family's extension rules
Roland Merrick: can state "not changed from HTML4; if want richer mechanism, create it according to the markup family's extension rules ←
16:15:49 <oedipus> SM: probably way to group all of this together
Shane McCarron: probably way to group all of this together ←
16:16:03 <oedipus> SM: should we introduce additional role values
Shane McCarron: should we introduce additional role values ←
16:16:05 <oedipus> GJR: yes
Gregory Rosmaita: yes ←
16:16:08 <oedipus> SP: good point
Steven Pemberton: good point ←
16:16:31 <oedipus> GJR: would like to differentiate between explanatory note and referential note
Gregory Rosmaita: would like to differentiate between explanatory note and referential note ←
16:16:58 <oedipus> SM: in existing vocabulary
Shane McCarron: in existing vocabulary ←
16:17:32 <oedipus> from vocab document: note: "note indicates the content is parenthetic or ancillary to the main content of the resource."
from vocab document: note: "note indicates the content is parenthetic or ancillary to the main content of the resource." ←
16:18:06 <oedipus> GJR: there are 2 types of note: referential (citation, endnote) and annotative (what the vocab doc says)
Gregory Rosmaita: there are 2 types of note: referential (citation, endnote) and annotative (what the vocab doc says) ←
16:18:27 <oedipus> SP: resolution?
Steven Pemberton: resolution? ←
16:18:51 <ShaneM> Tina: I think that is where we are ending up. Thanks!
Tina Holmboe: I think that is where we are ending up. Thanks! [ Scribe Assist by Shane McCarron ] ←
16:18:52 <oedipus> RM: leave address as-is, if want to create richer structures for that information, use SECTION
Roland Merrick: leave address as-is, if want to create richer structures for that information, use SECTION ←
16:19:40 <oedipus> proposed RESOLUTION: leave ADDRESS as-is, add note that if author wants to create richer structures for that information, author can do so following langauge's extension mechanism (e.g. use SECTION)
proposed RESOLUTION: leave ADDRESS as-is, add note that if author wants to create richer structures for that information, author can do so following langauge's extension mechanism (e.g. use SECTION) ←
16:20:04 <alessio> +1
Alessio Cartocci: +1 ←
16:20:07 <ShaneM> +1
Shane McCarron: +1 ←
16:20:09 <oedipus> proposed RESOLVED: leave ADDRESS as-is, add note that if author wants to create richer structures for that information, author can do so following langauge's extension mechanism, e.g. use SECTION
proposed RESOLVED: leave ADDRESS as-is, add note that if author wants to create richer structures for that information, author can do so following langauge's extension mechanism, e.g. use SECTION ←
16:20:13 <Roland> +1
Roland Merrick: +1 ←
16:20:23 <oedipus> RESOLVED: leave ADDRESS as-is, add note that if author wants to create richer structures for that information, author can do so following langauge's extension mechanism, e.g. use SECTION
RESOLVED: leave ADDRESS as-is, add note that if author wants to create richer structures for that information, author can do so following langauge's extension mechanism, e.g. use SECTION ←
16:20:36 <oedipus> SM: need to discuss additional role values - add to next f2f agenda
Shane McCarron: need to discuss additional role values - add to next f2f agenda ←
16:20:41 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes
rrsagent, make minutes ←
16:20:41 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/26-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus
RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/26-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus ←
16:21:16 <oedipus> SM: heading element - "confusing" - example of use of both
Shane McCarron: heading element - "confusing" - example of use of both ←
16:21:27 <oedipus> SM: think addressed this by moving things around in document
Shane McCarron: think addressed this by moving things around in document ←
16:21:45 <oedipus> SM: anne objects to P element content model that allows some block-level elements to be mixed in
Shane McCarron: anne objects to P element content model that allows some block-level elements to be mixed in ←
16:22:12 <oedipus> GJR: reminder earlier RESOLUTION: replace current explanation of P content model with "In comparison with earlier versions of HTML, where a paragraph could only contain inline text, XHTML2's paragraphs represent a richer content model."
Gregory Rosmaita: reminder earlier RESOLUTION: replace current explanation of P content model with "In comparison with earlier versions of HTML, where a paragraph could only contain inline text, XHTML2's paragraphs represent a richer content model." ←
16:22:21 <oedipus> SM: PRE element comments
Shane McCarron: PRE element comments ←
16:22:32 <oedipus> SM: changed example
Shane McCarron: changed example ←
16:22:46 <oedipus> GJR: PRE is a problem for accessibility
Gregory Rosmaita: PRE is a problem for accessibility ←
16:23:01 <oedipus> RM: editorial comment
Roland Merrick: editorial comment ←
16:23:19 <oedipus> SM: separator element -
Shane McCarron: separator element - ←
16:23:44 <oedipus> SP: TBL has affection for HR
Steven Pemberton: TBL has affection for HR ←
16:23:57 <Steven> unexplained affection
Steven Pemberton: unexplained affection ←
16:24:04 <Tina> Do we need HR when we have SECTION?
Tina Holmboe: Do we need HR when we have SECTION? ←
16:24:08 <oedipus> "There isn't mentioned a single use case. Only some presentational issues
"There isn't mentioned a single use case. Only some presentational issues ←
16:24:08 <oedipus> that should be kept in CSS as mentioned in 1.1.1. Right?"
that should be kept in CSS as mentioned in 1.1.1. Right?" ←
16:24:17 <Steven> no TIna, we don't
Steven Pemberton: no TIna, we don't ←
16:24:31 <oedipus> SM: don't understand point of comment
Shane McCarron: don't understand point of comment ←
16:24:47 <oedipus> GJR: hell, lets deprecate all BLOCK* elements in favor of CSS
Gregory Rosmaita: hell, lets deprecate all BLOCK* elements in favor of CSS ←
16:25:16 <oedipus> SM: lets disucss separator
Shane McCarron: lets disucss separator ←
16:25:43 <oedipus> SM: TBL has affection for HR - does that mean need HR deprecated in favor of SEPARATOR?
Shane McCarron: TBL has affection for HR - does that mean need HR deprecated in favor of SEPARATOR? ←
16:25:59 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2009/ED-xhtml2-20090205/mod-structural.html#edef_structural_separator
http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2009/ED-xhtml2-20090205/mod-structural.html#edef_structural_separator ←
16:26:35 <oedipus> SP: from fundamental point of view, solves problems with HR - found use cases for separator, could do with SECTION, but SEPARATOR is useful markup
Steven Pemberton: from fundamental point of view, solves problems with HR - found use cases for separator, could do with SECTION, but SEPARATOR is useful markup ←
16:27:13 <oedipus> SP: problem with HR - presentational; rather than introduce VR, use SEPARATOR
Steven Pemberton: problem with HR - presentational; rather than introduce VR, use SEPARATOR ←
16:27:40 <oedipus> RM: should say HR has no semantic meaning but is shorthand for SEPARATOR
Roland Merrick: should say HR has no semantic meaning but is shorthand for SEPARATOR ←
16:28:12 <oedipus> proposal: rename SEPARATOR to HR and add note: "there is nothing horizontal or presentational implied by HR"
PROPOSED: rename SEPARATOR to HR and add note: "there is nothing horizontal or presentational implied by HR" ←
16:28:22 <oedipus> SP: first element not related to concept
Steven Pemberton: first element not related to concept ←
16:28:49 <oedipus> RM: should be there for legacy, but if starting afresh use SEPARATOR
Roland Merrick: should be there for legacy, but if starting afresh use SEPARATOR ←
16:29:22 <oedipus> SP: reason for caring is that saying that won't change ingrained understanding of HR no matter what we say
Steven Pemberton: reason for caring is that saying that won't change ingrained understanding of HR no matter what we say ←
16:29:41 <oedipus> RM: how do languages that want VR handle HR?
Roland Merrick: how do languages that want VR handle HR? ←
16:29:43 <Zakim> -Markus
Zakim IRC Bot: -Markus ←
16:30:15 <oedipus> SP: maybe HR only works horizontally and are using borders on DIV for visually approximations of vertical rules
Steven Pemberton: maybe HR only works horizontally and are using borders on DIV for visually approximations of vertical rules ←
16:30:27 <oedipus> SP: i18n complaint still valid
Steven Pemberton: i18n complaint still valid ←
16:30:28 <Zakim> +Markus
Zakim IRC Bot: +Markus ←
16:30:44 <oedipus> RM: only if say HR has semantic meaning other than as shorthand for SEPARATOR
Roland Merrick: only if say HR has semantic meaning other than as shorthand for SEPARATOR ←
16:31:29 <oedipus> SP: have to provide standard stylesheet for XHTML2 - have to provide default style for SECTION, H, etc.
Steven Pemberton: have to provide standard stylesheet for XHTML2 - have to provide default style for SECTION, H, etc. ←
16:31:50 <oedipus> SM: don't think SEPARATOR an HR
Shane McCarron: don't think SEPARATOR an HR ←
16:32:02 <oedipus> SM: HR is a styled line running horizontally across page
Shane McCarron: HR is a styled line running horizontally across page ←
16:32:26 <oedipus> SM: separator is semantic indication that one part of document different from another - can be reflected in style rules or not
Shane McCarron: separator is semantic indication that one part of document different from another - can be reflected in style rules or not ←
16:33:06 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/semantics.html#the-hr-element
http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/semantics.html#the-hr-element ←
16:33:22 <oedipus> HTML5: "The hr element represents a paragraph-level thematic break, e.g. a scene change in a story, or a transition to another topic within a section of a reference book."
Scribe problem: the name 'HTML5' does not match any of the 22 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Mark Birbeck Susan Borgrink Christina Bottomley Alessio Cartocci Alexander Graf Markus Gylling Tina Holmboe John Kugelman Luca Mascaro Shane McCarron Roland Merrick Steven Pemberton Michael Rawling Gregory Rosmaita Sebastian Schnitzenbaumer Richard Schwerdtfeger Elias Torres Masataka Yakura Toshihiko Yamakami Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Unknown HTML5: "The hr element represents a paragraph-level thematic break, e.g. a scene change in a story, or a transition to another topic within a section of a reference book." ←
16:33:48 <oedipus> RM: suggest we move on for now
Roland Merrick: suggest we move on for now ←
16:34:26 <oedipus> "Contexts in which this element may be used: Where flow content is expected."
"Contexts in which this element may be used: Where flow content is expected." ←
16:35:06 <oedipus> SM: next comment: ABBR should use something other than @title - we do, so that is moot
Shane McCarron: next comment: ABBR should use something other than @title - we do, so that is moot ←
16:35:12 <oedipus> SM: next comment: CITE element
Shane McCarron: next comment: CITE element ←
16:35:28 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/xhtml2/wiki/ProposedElements/CITE_and_cite
http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/xhtml2/wiki/ProposedElements/CITE_and_cite ←
16:36:09 <oedipus> "Precis: In XHTML2, any element may have a href attribute. Since href is global, would it not be logical to mandate use of the href attribute in those circumstances where the cite attribute is currently used: as a consistent means of pointing at a resource, thereby providing the author with a linking mechanism that endows the user with the possibility of reviewing the quote in context. Therefore, it is proposed that the cite attribute be redefined to contain hu
"Precis: In XHTML2, any element may have a href attribute. Since href is global, would it not be logical to mandate use of the href attribute in those circumstances where the cite attribute is currently used: as a consistent means of pointing at a resource, thereby providing the author with a linking mechanism that endows the user with the possibility of reviewing the quote in context. Therefore, it is proposed that the cite attribute be redefined to contain hu ←
16:37:20 <oedipus> <section role="main">
<section role="main"> ←
16:37:20 <oedipus> <q for="fdr3i"
<q for="fdr3i" ←
16:37:20 <oedipus> href="http://www.hicom.net/~oedipus/exegesis/fdr-third-inaugural.html#fdr3ip36s1"
href="http://www.hicom.net/~oedipus/exegesis/fdr-third-inaugural.html#fdr3ip36s1" ←
16:37:20 <oedipus> cite="Franklin Delano Roosevelt: Third Innaugural Address; January 20, 1941"
cite="Franklin Delano Roosevelt: Third Innaugural Address; January 20, 1941" ←
16:37:20 <oedipus> >In the face of great perils never before encountered, our strong
>In the face of great perils never before encountered, our strong ←
16:37:21 <oedipus> purpose is to protect and to perpetuate the integrity of democracy.
purpose is to protect and to perpetuate the integrity of democracy. ←
16:37:23 <oedipus> </q>
</q> ←
16:37:24 <oedipus> <!-- ... -->
<!-- ... --> ←
16:37:26 <oedipus> </section>
</section> ←
16:37:28 <oedipus> <section role="secondary">
<section role="secondary"> ←
16:37:31 <oedipus> <h id="biblio">Bibliography</h>
<h id="biblio">Bibliography</h> ←
16:37:33 <oedipus> <ol>
<ol> ←
16:37:34 <oedipus> <li role="contentinfo"><cite id="fdr3i"
<li role="contentinfo"><cite id="fdr3i" ←
16:37:36 <oedipus> src="http://www.fdrpapers.gov/fdr3i.html"
src="http://www.fdrpapers.gov/fdr3i.html" ←
16:37:39 <oedipus> >Roosevelt, Franklin Delano. Third Inaugural Address. Delivered
>Roosevelt, Franklin Delano. Third Inaugural Address. Delivered ←
16:37:40 <oedipus> before a joint session of congress, January 20, 1941. (official
before a joint session of congress, January 20, 1941. (official ←
16:37:42 <oedipus> White House transcript)</li>
White House transcript)</li> ←
16:37:44 <oedipus> </ol>
</ol> ←
16:37:46 <oedipus> <!-- ... -->
<!-- ... --> ←
16:37:49 <oedipus> </section>
</section> ←
16:37:59 <oedipus> GJR: Finally, a for/id relationship between the Q element and the CITE element, which allows the author to bind individual quotes to a common source.
Gregory Rosmaita: Finally, a for/id relationship between the Q element and the CITE element, which allows the author to bind individual quotes to a common source. ←
16:38:28 <Steven> I think this is another element rendered unecessary by rdfa
Steven Pemberton: I think this is another element rendered unecessary by rdfa ←
16:38:34 <oedipus> GJR: should be able to point to CITE element with for/id relationship
Gregory Rosmaita: should be able to point to CITE element with for/id relationship ←
16:38:37 <Steven> s/une/unne/
Steven Pemberton: s/une/unne/ ←
16:38:59 <oedipus> GJR: if @cite is retained should be for human processing
Gregory Rosmaita: if @cite is retained should be for human processing ←
16:39:18 <oedipus> SM: disagree
Shane McCarron: disagree ←
16:39:42 <oedipus> SM: src is used to identify external source that is only read-in; href is used for hyperlink; cite is something else
Shane McCarron: src is used to identify external source that is only read-in; href is used for hyperlink; cite is something else ←
16:40:04 <oedipus> SM: in current XHTML2 @cite is an @href that is actionable through an alternate method
Shane McCarron: in current XHTML2 @cite is an @href that is actionable through an alternate method ←
16:40:19 <oedipus> GJR: a quote is embedded content
Gregory Rosmaita: a quote is embedded content ←
16:40:41 <Steven> I think it is actually equivalent to rel="cite" href="...."
Steven Pemberton: I think it is actually equivalent to rel="cite" href="...." ←
16:40:52 <ShaneM> <quote src="someURI" />
Shane McCarron: <quote src="someURI" /> ←
16:41:01 <alessio> yep
Alessio Cartocci: yep ←
16:41:11 <oedipus> SM: @src brings in a URI and replaces Q
Shane McCarron: @src brings in a URI and replaces Q ←
16:41:47 <oedipus> GJR: "Since href is global, would it not be logical to mandate use of the href attribute in those circumstances where the cite attribute is currently used: as a consistent means of pointing at a resource, thereby providing the author with a linking mechanism that endows the user with the possibility of reviewing the quote in context. Therefore, it is proposed that the cite attribute be redefined to contain human parseable information -- such as the source of a
Gregory Rosmaita: "Since href is global, would it not be logical to mandate use of the href attribute in those circumstances where the cite attribute is currently used: as a consistent means of pointing at a resource, thereby providing the author with a linking mechanism that endows the user with the possibility of reviewing the quote in context. Therefore, it is proposed that the cite attribute be redefined to contain human parseable information -- such as the source of a ←
16:43:12 <oedipus> GJR: "Likewise, the globally available src attribute should be applied explicitly to the CITE element, so that an author can point to a standardized external reference profile for the resource encased in the CITE element. Finally, a for/id relationship between the Q element and the CITE element, which allows the author to bind individual quotes to a common source. "
Gregory Rosmaita: "Likewise, the globally available src attribute should be applied explicitly to the CITE element, so that an author can point to a standardized external reference profile for the resource encased in the CITE element. Finally, a for/id relationship between the Q element and the CITE element, which allows the author to bind individual quotes to a common source. " ←
16:43:40 <oedipus> SM: @cite is legacy - existed in HTML4; has different semantic than @href
Shane McCarron: @cite is legacy - existed in HTML4; has different semantic than @href ←
16:43:48 <oedipus> SM: drop @src
Shane McCarron: drop @src ←
16:43:58 <oedipus> SM: @href and @cite similar
Shane McCarron: @href and @cite similar ←
16:44:07 <oedipus> SM: not sure how dovetails with RDFa
Shane McCarron: not sure how dovetails with RDFa ←
16:44:32 <oedipus> SM: arguable that @cite is something RDFa should process but didn't define rules for that
Shane McCarron: arguable that @cite is something RDFa should process but didn't define rules for that ←
16:45:09 <oedipus> GJR: @href for Q points to content in context; @src for Q points to source of quote
Gregory Rosmaita: @href for Q points to content in context; @src for Q points to source of quote ←
16:45:13 <oedipus> SM: rel="cite"
Shane McCarron: rel="cite" ←
16:45:32 <oedipus> s/SM: rel="cite"/SP: rel="cite"
s/SM: rel="cite"/SP: rel="cite" ←
16:45:39 <oedipus> SM: will bring up in RDFa telecon
Shane McCarron: will bring up in RDFa telecon ←
16:47:21 <oedipus> "Currently, asssistive technologies are capable of speaking the contents of the cite attribute when one is reading a quote or blockquote and has quote identification turned on; however, the utility of a URL to provide context and continuity are exceedingly limited -- a URI should be the course of last resort. An example has been set by assistive technologies' handling of images: if no alt try title if no title, use the src value. For cite attribute, the cascade
"Currently, asssistive technologies are capable of speaking the contents of the cite attribute when one is reading a quote or blockquote and has quote identification turned on; however, the utility of a URL to provide context and continuity are exceedingly limited -- a URI should be the course of last resort. An example has been set by assistive technologies' handling of images: if no alt try title if no title, use the src value. For cite attribute, the cascade ←
16:47:55 <oedipus> cite in HTML4x http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/text.html#edef-CITE
cite in HTML4x http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/text.html#edef-CITE ←
16:48:04 <oedipus> RM: are we done with AVK's comment on cite?
Roland Merrick: are we done with AVK's comment on cite? ←
16:48:08 <oedipus> SM: fixed examples
Shane McCarron: fixed examples ←
16:48:18 <oedipus> SM: KBD element
Shane McCarron: KBD element ←
16:48:34 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2009/ED-xhtml2-20090205/mod-text.html#edef_text_kbd
http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2009/ED-xhtml2-20090205/mod-text.html#edef_text_kbd ←
16:49:08 <oedipus> current XHTML2 wording: "The kbd element indicates input to be entered by the user."
current XHTML2 wording: "The kbd element indicates input to be entered by the user." ←
16:49:21 <oedipus> SM: response: not in our scope
Shane McCarron: response: not in our scope ←
16:49:24 <oedipus> RM: agree
Roland Merrick: agree ←
16:49:27 <oedipus> SP: agree
Steven Pemberton: agree ←
16:49:30 <oedipus> GJR: agree
Gregory Rosmaita: agree ←
16:49:31 <alessio> agree
Alessio Cartocci: agree ←
16:49:36 <Zakim> -Steven
Zakim IRC Bot: -Steven ←
16:49:53 <oedipus> SM: AVK's next comment - use case for L is bad and doesn't BLOCKCODE preserve whitespace
Shane McCarron: AVK's next comment - use case for L is bad and doesn't BLOCKCODE preserve whitespace ←
16:49:56 <Steven> sorry, dropped the phone, just a moment
Steven Pemberton: sorry, dropped the phone, just a moment ←
16:50:09 <oedipus> GJR: BLOCKCODE versus PRE
Gregory Rosmaita: BLOCKCODE versus PRE ←
16:50:11 <Steven> zakim, dial steven-617
Steven Pemberton: zakim, dial steven-617 ←
16:50:11 <Zakim> ok, Steven; the call is being made
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, Steven; the call is being made ←
16:50:13 <Zakim> +Steven
Zakim IRC Bot: +Steven ←
16:51:33 <oedipus> GJR: PRE literally as-is
Gregory Rosmaita: PRE literally as-is ←
16:51:52 <oedipus> GJR: BLOCKCODE can signal to assistive tech to respect and count whitespace
Gregory Rosmaita: BLOCKCODE can signal to assistive tech to respect and count whitespace ←
16:52:19 <oedipus> SM: BLOCKCODE doesn't preserve whitespace - layout attribute is irrelevant
Shane McCarron: BLOCKCODE doesn't preserve whitespace - layout attribute is irrelevant ←
16:52:48 <oedipus> GJR: point simply that whitespace is extremely hard to communicate to a non-visual user
Gregory Rosmaita: point simply that whitespace is extremely hard to communicate to a non-visual user ←
16:53:19 <oedipus> GJR: python examples should be in BLOCKQUODE rather than PRE
Gregory Rosmaita: python examples should be in BLOCKQUODE rather than PRE ←
16:53:38 <oedipus> s/BLOCKQUODE/BLOCKCODE
s/BLOCKQUODE/BLOCKCODE ←
16:53:45 <oedipus> SM: made note to change example
Shane McCarron: made note to change example ←
16:54:04 <oedipus> SM: don't want to loose this thread
Shane McCarron: don't want to loose this thread ←
16:54:14 <oedipus> GJR: will try and explain more clearly
Gregory Rosmaita: will try and explain more clearly ←
16:54:35 <oedipus> ACTION: Gregory - send post to list explaining concerns over PRE
ACTION: Gregory - send post to list explaining concerns over PRE ←
16:54:35 <trackbot> Created ACTION-70 - - send post to list explaining concerns over PRE [on Gregory Rosmaita - due 2009-04-02].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-70 - - send post to list explaining concerns over PRE [on Gregory Rosmaita - due 2009-04-02]. ←
16:55:24 <oedipus> RM: HTML5 backtracked on Q to HTML2
Roland Merrick: HTML5 backtracked on Q to HTML2 ←
16:55:38 <oedipus> SM: comment "why should be done in text and not stylesheet"
Shane McCarron: comment "why should be done in text and not stylesheet" ←
16:55:47 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/xhtml2/wiki/ProposedElements/Q
http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/xhtml2/wiki/ProposedElements/Q ←
16:56:16 <oedipus> GJR: "BLOCKQUOTE is nothing more than a presentational model taken from print conventions, rather than semantic meaning. If Q was ubiquitously implemented, one could use styling rules to create a Q instance with the properties of a block quotation -- that is, as a paragraph indented at least 5em on both left and right margins;"
Gregory Rosmaita: "BLOCKQUOTE is nothing more than a presentational model taken from print conventions, rather than semantic meaning. If Q was ubiquitously implemented, one could use styling rules to create a Q instance with the properties of a block quotation -- that is, as a paragraph indented at least 5em on both left and right margins;" ←
16:56:33 <oedipus> GJR: favors a SINGLE quote element
Gregory Rosmaita: favors a SINGLE quote element ←
16:56:44 <Zakim> -Roland
Zakim IRC Bot: -Roland ←
16:56:59 <oedipus> GJR: BLOCKQUOTE has no semantic meaning -- it is merely one means of many of demarcating any quote an arbitrary number of sentences long.
Gregory Rosmaita: BLOCKQUOTE has no semantic meaning -- it is merely one means of many of demarcating any quote an arbitrary number of sentences long. ←
16:56:59 <oedipus> GJR: a quote is a quote is a quote - how it is demarcated as a quote is a presentational matter; what is important is that the material be logically and consistently marked up, so why have 2 forms of QUOTE, when only one is needed?
Gregory Rosmaita: a quote is a quote is a quote - how it is demarcated as a quote is a presentational matter; what is important is that the material be logically and consistently marked up, so why have 2 forms of QUOTE, when only one is needed? ←
16:57:14 <oedipus> SM: next comment - why an A element - answer: backwards compatibility
Shane McCarron: next comment - why an A element - answer: backwards compatibility ←
16:57:23 <oedipus> SM: why can't one use more than one CAPTION in a list?
Shane McCarron: why can't one use more than one CAPTION in a list? ←
16:57:33 <oedipus> SP: CAPTION for entire list, not part of it
Steven Pemberton: CAPTION for entire list, not part of it ←
16:57:37 <oedipus> 26634
26634 ←
16:57:54 <Zakim> +Roland
Zakim IRC Bot: +Roland ←
16:58:23 <oedipus> GJR: so are we in effect setting up a cascade that says CAPTION for whole item, LEGEND for components?
Gregory Rosmaita: so are we in effect setting up a cascade that says CAPTION for whole item, LEGEND for components? ←
16:58:50 <oedipus> SM: don't have LEGEND element anymore
Shane McCarron: don't have LEGEND element anymore ←
16:59:10 <oedipus> GJR: i've been working within PF to reuse the LEGEND element in HTML5
Gregory Rosmaita: i've been working within PF to reuse the LEGEND element in HTML5 ←
16:59:44 <ShaneM> (confirmed - we no longer have a legend element in XHTML 2)
Shane McCarron: (confirmed - we no longer have a legend element in XHTML 2) ←
16:59:55 <oedipus> GJR: since XForms carries LABEL, and LEGEND is no longer needed for the FIELDSET model that LEGEND be reused as an organizational grouping desceriptor
Gregory Rosmaita: since XForms carries LABEL, and LEGEND is no longer needed for the FIELDSET model that LEGEND be reused as an organizational grouping desceriptor ←
17:00:26 <oedipus> RM: labelling a different discussion
Roland Merrick: labelling a different discussion ←
17:01:16 <Steven> zakim, status?
Steven Pemberton: zakim, status? ←
17:01:16 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, Steven.
Zakim IRC Bot: I don't understand your question, Steven. ←
17:01:24 <oedipus> some thoughts on LEGEND: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2009Mar/0015.html
some thoughts on LEGEND: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2009Mar/0015.html ←
17:01:29 <Steven> zakim, ports?
Steven Pemberton: zakim, ports? ←
17:01:29 <Zakim> I see 92 ports in service, 76 ports idle
Zakim IRC Bot: I see 92 ports in service, 76 ports idle ←
17:01:48 <oedipus> SM: 10 more items in AVK's list
Shane McCarron: 10 more items in AVK's list ←
17:01:56 <oedipus> http://htmlwg.mn.aptest.com/cgi-bin/xhtml2-issues/XHTML-2.0
http://htmlwg.mn.aptest.com/cgi-bin/xhtml2-issues/XHTML-2.0 ←
17:02:31 <Zakim> -Steven
Zakim IRC Bot: -Steven ←
17:02:32 <oedipus> RM: next address 13.1
Roland Merrick: next address 13.1 ←
17:02:32 <Zakim> -ShaneM
Zakim IRC Bot: -ShaneM ←
17:02:33 <Zakim> -Markus
Zakim IRC Bot: -Markus ←
17:02:34 <Zakim> -Roland
Zakim IRC Bot: -Roland ←
17:02:39 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes
rrsagent, make minutes ←
17:02:39 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/26-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus
RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/26-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus ←
17:02:42 <Zakim> -Gregory_Rosmaita
Zakim IRC Bot: -Gregory_Rosmaita ←
17:02:44 <Steven> thanks Gregory!~
Steven Pemberton: thanks Gregory!~ ←
17:02:45 <Zakim> -Alessio
Zakim IRC Bot: -Alessio ←
17:02:46 <Zakim> Team_(xhtml)13:00Z has ended
Zakim IRC Bot: Team_(xhtml)13:00Z has ended ←
17:02:47 <Zakim> Attendees were Roland, Gregory_Rosmaita, +46.7.06.02.aaaa, Markus, Steven, Alessio, ShaneM, Tina
Zakim IRC Bot: Attendees were Roland, Gregory_Rosmaita, +46.7.06.02.aaaa, Markus, Steven, Alessio, ShaneM, Tina ←
17:02:50 <oedipus> my pleasure
my pleasure ←
17:02:55 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes
rrsagent, make minutes ←
17:02:55 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/26-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus
RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/26-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus ←
17:02:59 <oedipus> rrsagent, stop
rrsagent, stop ←
17:03:53 <oedipus> present- [+46.7.06.02.aaaa]
present- [+46.7.06.02.aaaa] ←
17:03:59 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes
rrsagent, make minutes ←
17:03:59 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/26-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus
RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/26-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus ←
17:04:18 <oedipus> present- +46.7.06.02.aaaa
present- +46.7.06.02.aaaa ←
17:04:22 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes
rrsagent, make minutes ←
17:04:22 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/26-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus
RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/26-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus ←
17:04:49 <oedipus> rrsagent, stop
rrsagent, stop ←
17:05:17 <oedipus> ==== ADJOURNED ====
17:05:25 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes
rrsagent, make minutes ←
17:05:25 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/26-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus
RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/26-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus ←
17:05:28 <oedipus> rrsagent, stop
rrsagent, stop ←
17:09:34 <oedipus> zakim, please part
zakim, please part ←
17:09:39 <oedipus> rrsagent, stop
rrsagent, stop ←
Formatted by CommonScribe
This revision (#1) generated 2009-03-27 04:58:44 UTC by 'sandro', comments: 'Sandro, Testing....'