13:55:06 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #dxwg
13:55:06 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2017/10/23-dxwg-irc
13:55:13 <kcoyle> rrsagent, make logs public
13:58:35 <alejandra> alejandra has joined #dxwg
13:59:24 <Caroline_> Caroline_ has joined #DXWG
14:00:01 <LarsG> LarsG has joined #dxwg
14:00:03 <roba> roba has joined #dxwg
14:00:09 <LarsG> present+
14:01:41 <Caroline_> Present+
14:01:41 <Jaroslav_Pullmann> Jaroslav_Pullmann has joined #dxwg
14:02:11 <alejandra> present+
14:02:51 <Jaroslav_Pullmann> prsent+
14:03:05 <Jaroslav_Pullmann> s/prsent/present/
14:03:23 <Caroline_> Present+
14:03:46 <Makx> Makx has joined #dxwg
14:03:59 <roba> present+
14:04:00 <DaveBrowning> DaveBrowning has joined #dxwg
14:05:01 <Caroline_> Scribe: LarsG
14:05:39 <Stijn_Goedertier_AIV> Stijn_Goedertier_AIV has joined #dxwg
14:06:11 <Stijn_Goedertier_AIV> present+
14:06:16 <Ixchel> Ixchel has joined #dxwg
14:06:19 <Ixchel> present + Ixchel
14:06:26 <LarsG> Topc: Admin
14:06:39 <Caroline_> https://www.w3.org/2017/10/16-dxwg-minutes
14:06:40 <DaveBrowning> present+ DaveBrowning
14:06:46 <kcoyle> present+
14:06:49 <LarsG> Proposed: Approve last weeks minutes
14:07:02 <Caroline_> +1
14:07:05 <dsr> present+
14:07:06 <kcoyle> present+ Ixchel
14:07:11 <LarsG> 0 wasn't there...
14:07:16 <Jaroslav_Pullmann> +1
14:07:22 <DaveBrowning> +1
14:07:26 <LarsG> RESOLVED: Approve last week's minutes
14:07:43 <PWinstanley__> PWinstanley__ has joined #dxwg
14:07:43 <roba> +1
14:07:52 <LarsG> Topic: Meeting time post-daylight savings
14:07:52 <PWinstanley__> present+
14:08:01 <kcoyle> scribenick: LarsG
14:08:15 <AndreaPerego> AndreaPerego has joined #dxwg
14:08:22 <LarsG> Caroline_: Meeting time changes to 21:00 UTC from next week
14:08:24 <AndreaPerego> present+ AndreaPerego
14:08:28 <riccardoAlbertoni> riccardoAlbertoni has joined #dxwg
14:08:36 <LarsG> ... until further notice
14:08:51 <LarsG> Topic: Open Actions
14:08:53 <kcoyle> q?
14:08:57 <riccardoAlbertoni> present+
14:09:01 <LarsG> https://www.w3.org/2017/dxwg/track/actions/open
14:09:17 <LarsG> Caroline_: check if open actions can be closed
14:09:32 <Makx> present+ Makx
14:09:36 <LarsG> https://www.w3.org/2017/dxwg/track/actions/21
14:09:47 <LarsG> ... assigned to PWinstanley__
14:09:50 <Caroline_> https://www.w3.org/2017/dxwg/track/actions/21
14:09:55 <Caroline_> s/https://www.w3.org/2017/dxwg/track/actions/21
14:09:57 <LarsG> ... can we close?
14:10:08 <LarsG> PWinstanley__: will come back
14:10:17 <LarsG> Caroline_: https://www.w3.org/2017/dxwg/track/actions/18
14:10:27 <LarsG> ... assigned to Makx
14:10:57 <LarsG> Makx: not aware of that action...
14:11:14 <LarsG> Caroline_: due to bug in tracker we're not sure if actions are open or not
14:11:15 <PWinstanley__> @caroline, that was wrapped up in the work on types of versioning
14:11:30 <LarsG> Makx: will come back on that one
14:12:12 <Caroline_> https://www.w3.org/2017/dxwg/track/actions/24
14:12:13 <LarsG> Caroline_: ??? had an action regarding GitHub https://www.w3.org/2017/dxwg/track/actions/24
14:12:29 <Caroline_> s/???/dsr
14:12:53 <LarsG> dsr: should be done (the right people have write access to the repository)
14:13:08 <LarsG> Caroline_: https://www.w3.org/2017/dxwg/track/actions/36 and https://www.w3.org/2017/dxwg/track/actions/38
14:13:11 <Caroline_> https://www.w3.org/2017/dxwg/track/actions/36
14:13:15 <LarsG> ... assigned to Jaroslav_Pullmann
14:13:27 <Caroline_> https://www.w3.org/2017/dxwg/track/actions/48
14:13:38 <LarsG> Jaroslav_Pullmann:  has created a visual description and a wiki page for discussion
14:13:45 <kcoyle> q-
14:13:47 <LarsG> ... will close the action today
14:14:08 <LarsG> ... needs to be discussed next week
14:14:11 <Caroline_> https://www.w3.org/2017/dxwg/track/actions/40
14:14:37 <LarsG> LarsG: can be closed
14:14:47 <Caroline_> https://www.w3.org/2017/dxwg/track/actions/41
14:15:25 <LarsG> Ixchel: can be closed, it's all in the spreadsheet
14:15:32 <Caroline_> q?
14:15:47 <LarsG> PWinstanley__: https://www.w3.org/2017/dxwg/track/actions/43 can be closed
14:15:58 <LarsG> Caroline_: https://www.w3.org/2017/dxwg/track/actions/44
14:16:01 <Caroline_> https://www.w3.org/2017/dxwg/track/actions/44
14:16:06 <Caroline_> s/https://www.w3.org/2017/dxwg/track/actions/44/
14:16:20 <LarsG> alejandra: not yet completed but there is a spreadsheet
14:16:29 <LarsG> ... with a different classification of requirements
14:16:45 <LarsG> ... also looking at other versioning requirements
14:16:59 <alejandra> spreadsheet classifying the requirements per entity: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1csCcOEWF4Rh-ghIjxaqKQ4qryfjiQlIpvV6_aFDJn5k/edit#gid=113335154
14:17:04 <LarsG> ... can copy the relevant mail into the wiki
14:17:18 <LarsG> ... some requirements require fine grained metadata
14:17:30 <LarsG> ... those are probably under-specified
14:17:54 <LarsG> ... need to follow on regarding application profiles
14:18:11 <LarsG> ... not very much in the UC regarding versioning, still going
14:18:32 <LarsG> ... through these and will write to the list
14:18:49 <LarsG> Caroline_: https://www.w3.org/2017/dxwg/track/actions/45
14:18:52 <LarsG> dsr: still open
14:19:18 <LarsG> Caroline_: https://www.w3.org/2017/dxwg/track/actions/49 assigned to Annette
14:19:36 <LarsG> ... Annete is not present, we'll discuss next week
14:19:41 <Caroline_> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/16JmtNCz_aCWtTCSntriDWLvyPY2x-Y9dZFhAHFl55r0/edit#gid=1131839466
14:19:58 <LarsG> Topic: UCR
14:20:02 <Caroline_> q?
14:20:07 <LarsG> Caroline_: Looking at headings
14:20:13 <roba> q+
14:20:20 <Caroline_> ack roba
14:20:33 <LarsG> roba: sent a list of suggestions for headings
14:20:49 <LarsG> ... for ordering the spreadsheet
14:21:06 <LarsG> ... a few related to alignment to DCAT and other standards
14:21:21 <LarsG> ... including equivalences to schema.org
14:22:25 <LarsG> ... a number are related to the issue of citation and managing identification
14:22:37 <LarsG> ... in the case of federation (multiple copies)
14:22:50 <LarsG> ... some relate to fine-grained machine-readable descriptions
14:22:58 <LarsG> ... some to profiles
14:23:18 <LarsG> ... and others to the fitnesse for usefulness in a specific case
14:23:29 <kcoyle> q+
14:23:39 <LarsG> ... and some more not quite worked out yet (action constraints etc.)
14:23:57 <LarsG> ... should be reasonably coherent
14:24:02 <Caroline_> ack kcoyle
14:24:32 <LarsG> kcoyle: thinks that we should look at how those interact with alejandra's proposal
14:24:47 <alejandra> q+
14:24:58 <LarsG> roba: that's fine, the substantial issue is to get the requirements right
14:25:16 <LarsG> kcoyle: yes, the two spreadsheets should inform each other and figure out where there are gaps
14:25:20 <Caroline_> ack alejandra
14:25:36 <LarsG> alejandra: we can explore both and they should be complementary.
14:26:03 <LarsG> ... Rob's is more topical, alejandra's is more about common aspects among entities
14:26:16 <Caroline_> q?
14:26:23 <LarsG> ... it's good to have the flexibility to have different classifications
14:27:04 <LarsG> Caroline_: agrees with alejandra's proposal to explore both
14:27:23 <Caroline_> 6.13 Describe fine grained semantics and structure of datasets
14:27:37 <Caroline_> q?
14:27:43 <roba> q+
14:27:47 <Caroline_> ack roba
14:28:31 <LarsG> roba: OGC provides data exchange schemas, in W3C there is SHACL etc
14:28:49 <LarsG> ... constraints on use of vocabularies etc
14:29:07 <LarsG> ... which is all about fine grained semantics
14:29:22 <LarsG> ... Also W3C QB
14:29:28 <alejandra> https://w3c.github.io/dxwg/ucr/#RID11
14:29:36 <LarsG> .. so there is some evidence that fine grained semantics is a concern
14:29:44 <LarsG> ... in order to understand the data
14:30:04 <LarsG> ... and have a formal description of it.
14:30:07 <alejandra> q+
14:30:32 <LarsG> ... But there is no standard way to attach that semantics to the data and tell people which vocabularies we use to attach the descriptions
14:30:32 <Caroline_> ack alejandra
14:30:57 <LarsG> alejandra: one of the examples whe has referred to before since the title of the requirement is to generic
14:31:18 <LarsG> ... should be more about dimensions and vocabularies.
14:31:35 <LarsG> ... Suggests to go back to the Use Cases and look at the terminology used there
14:31:53 <LarsG> ... and the requirements should be refined to better mirror what's in the use case
14:32:00 <kcoyle> q+
14:32:00 <roba> q+
14:32:11 <LarsG> ... perhaps split into several requirements
14:32:11 <Caroline_> ack kcoyle
14:32:12 <Jaroslav_Pullmann> q+
14:32:21 <LarsG> kcoyle: agrees with alejandra , should be more specific
14:32:25 <Caroline_> q?
14:32:30 <LarsG> ... perhaps rather a function for the profile
14:32:42 <LarsG> ... or a link between DCAT and the profile
14:32:50 <Makx> q+
14:33:06 <Caroline_> ack roba
14:33:10 <LarsG> ... This information might be too community-specific and thus out of scope for DCAT
14:33:29 <LarsG> roba: agrees with kcoyle re community specificity
14:33:39 <LarsG> ... depending on which platform is used
14:34:11 <LarsG> ... sometimes the meta-model is given and it's only a matter of the headings
14:34:19 <LarsG> ... in other cases there is more freedom
14:34:44 <LarsG> ... The question is if we want to model it in detail or just link the dataset description to a profile
14:35:04 <Caroline_> q?
14:35:06 <DaveBrowning> q+
14:35:10 <LarsG> ... we need to think of that first and then we can decide on how to describe it (in DCAT or outside)
14:35:19 <Caroline_> ack Jaroslav_Pullmann
14:35:20 <LarsG> ... Not sure if there is a use case for that
14:36:00 <LarsG> Jaroslav_Pullmann: finds it important to find the parts that refer to a world context (feature of interest etc.).
14:36:29 <LarsG> ... other parts of semantic expression is the data itself
14:36:57 <LarsG> ... perhaps we should split: real world entities vs. data gained
14:37:09 <DaveBrowning> q-
14:37:25 <LarsG> ... we should be clear about the outcome of the requirement
14:37:45 <LarsG> ... suggests to split off the two meanings of semantics
14:37:54 <Caroline_> ack Makx
14:37:54 <Caroline_> q?
14:38:25 <roba> should we remove word "semantics" from this definition - make it "formal description of aspects" ?
14:38:35 <LarsG> Makx: from practical experience: they made a specific AP for statistical data in order to give semantics to those dimensions
14:39:25 <LarsG> ... but often it's a matter of domain specific dimensions and then it might not make sense to have common properties
14:39:25 <Caroline_> q?
14:39:27 <Jaroslav_Pullmann> q+
14:39:31 <LarsG> Jaroslav_Pullmann:
14:39:34 <roba> q+
14:39:37 <Caroline_> ack Jaroslav_Pullmann
14:40:31 <LarsG> ... agrees with Makx. Asks Makx to add a use case for features of interest. This was discussed at the Oxfort F2F (real world objects)
14:41:04 <LarsG> Jaroslav_Pullmann: sees a twofold topic:
14:41:17 <LarsG> ... 1) what is considered the source of data
14:41:24 <LarsG> ... 2) how to interpret that
14:41:40 <LarsG> ... the first is a contextual reference (real world domain entity)
14:41:46 <kcoyle> q+
14:41:53 <LarsG> ... could be an invoice, a shipment
14:42:05 <LarsG> Makx: has nothing to do with the comment.
14:42:29 <LarsG> ... some data might be in Data qb, others in SDMX
14:42:55 <Caroline_> ack Jaroslav_Pullmann
14:42:55 <Caroline_> s/ack Jaroslav_Pullmann
14:43:06 <LarsG> ... if you have particular domains with particular data then that domain might have a particular
14:43:22 <LarsG> ... interest to expose certain internals of their data at the dataset level
14:43:39 <LarsG> Jaroslav_Pullmann: only referred to structured data
14:43:56 <LarsG> ... felt that there are many references in the UC that refer to the real world
14:44:16 <LarsG> ... but nothing talking about the data points
14:44:26 <Caroline_> ack roba
14:44:32 <LarsG> (hope I got that right...)
14:45:03 <LarsG> roba: fine grained detail in observations and measurements often gets blurred
14:45:22 <LarsG> ... end users have different perspectives (related but not the same)
14:45:38 <LarsG> ... suggests to push things to profiles and then have best practices
14:45:52 <LarsG> ... for domain-specific applications
14:46:08 <Jaroslav_Pullmann> q+
14:46:12 <LarsG> ... thinks there will be specialisations of general profiles
14:46:37 <Caroline_> ack kcoyle
14:46:37 <LarsG> ... suggests to remove the word "semantics" and replace with "specific aspects"
14:46:57 <alejandra> or "formal aspects"
14:47:15 <LarsG> kcoyle: sounds as if Jaroslav_Pullmann talks about things that help with discovery, suggests to provide a UC for that since there is none
14:47:25 <LarsG> Jaroslav_Pullmann: will do , agrees that that's the aspect
14:48:05 <LarsG> kcoyle: suggests that we consider this as something to relegate to profiles and to use roba's language for that
14:48:06 <roba> q+
14:48:24 <Caroline_> ack Jaroslav_Pullmann
14:48:27 <LarsG> ... and assumes that the profile will be  linked to the dataset using a to-be-defined property
14:49:03 <kcoyle> ACTION: on Jaroslav_Pullmann to create use case relating to real world entities as source of data
14:49:03 <trackbot> Error finding 'on'. You can review and register nicknames at <https://www.w3.org/2017/dxwg/track/users>.
14:49:35 <kcoyle> ACTION: Jaroslav_Pullmann to create use case relating to real world entities as source of data
14:49:35 <trackbot> Created ACTION-50 - Create use case relating to real world entities as source of data [on Jaroslav Pullmann - due 2017-10-30].
14:49:52 <Caroline_> q?
14:49:52 <Caroline_> ack roba
14:50:11 <PWinstanley> PWinstanley has joined #dxwg
14:50:23 <PWinstanley> present+
14:50:43 <LarsG> roba: there are a number of specialised requirements here so there are some different examples of the same requirement
14:50:57 <LarsG> kcoyle: is there a link from the req to the UC?
14:51:20 <LarsG> roba: yes, and the forward-links from UC to requirement isn't done yet
14:51:49 <Jaroslav_Pullmann> q+
14:51:53 <Caroline_> ack Jaroslav_Pullmann
14:52:21 <LarsG> Jaroslav_Pullmann: the forward-links from UC to req are normally created automatically
14:53:19 <LarsG> ... in order to have just one source to maintain
14:54:36 <kcoyle> PROPOSED: accept 6.13 using Rob's suggest rewording; associate with profiles
14:55:00 <PWinstanley> can hear you caroline
14:55:18 <riccardoAlbertoni> \me yes
14:55:42 <alejandra> q+
14:55:42 <Caroline_> can you hear me?
14:55:58 <Caroline_> ack alejandra
14:56:22 <kcoyle> suggests to remove the word "semantics" and replace with "specific aspects" [07:46] <alejandra> or "formal aspects"
14:57:14 <Jaroslav_Pullmann> q+
14:57:24 <Caroline_> ack Jaroslav_Pullmann
14:58:03 <LarsG> Jaroslav_Pullmann: wants to mention the aspect of interpretation of data
14:58:10 <roba> q+
14:58:20 <Caroline_> ack roba
14:58:23 <LarsG> kcoyle: the wording should be specific aspects or formal aspects
14:59:32 <alejandra> q+
14:59:33 <LarsG> roba: should be fomalisations of descriptions of data (for discovery or whatever)
14:59:53 <LarsG> Jaroslav_Pullmann: not very happy with that (yet)
15:00:13 <alejandra> +1 to Jaroslav_Pullmann I think it would still be too vague
15:00:19 <Caroline_> ack alejandra
15:00:22 <roba> q+
15:00:27 <LarsG> ... thinks we should express what the intention of the description is and put that in the requirement title
15:00:56 <Caroline_> PROPOSED: accept 6.13 using Rob's suggest rewording; associate with profiles
15:01:12 <LarsG> +1
15:01:17 <kcoyle> +1
15:01:21 <Caroline_> +1
15:01:21 <Jaroslav_Pullmann> +1
15:01:23 <DaveBrowning> +1
15:01:26 <roba> +1
15:01:31 <Stijn_Goedertier_AIV> +1
15:01:32 <dsr> +1
15:01:37 <riccardoAlbertoni> +1
15:01:39 <PWinstanley> +1
15:01:50 <alejandra> I think the proposal is not too clear
15:01:50 <kcoyle> RESOLVED: accept 6.13 using Rob's suggest rewording; associate with profiles
15:02:05 <Makx> +1
15:02:25 <AndreaPerego> +1 - but agree with alejandra that it needs to be clarified
15:02:35 <LarsG> alejandra: wants to vote on the reworded requirement instead
15:03:09 <LarsG> kcoyle: Ixchel has already made a similar proposal
15:03:12 <alejandra> this is the text kcoyle said
15:03:15 <alejandra> "6.13.1 Provide recommendations and mechanisms for data providers to describe datasets with fine grained semantics (e.g. instrument/sensor used, spatial feature, observable property, quantity kind)."
15:03:23 <alejandra> we should have discussed that text
15:03:46 <Caroline_> https://www.w3.org/2017/dxwg/wiki/F2f2
15:04:17 <LarsG> ACTION: Ixchel to update text in 6.13
15:04:18 <trackbot> Created ACTION-51 - Update text in 6.13 [on Ixchel Faniel - due 2017-10-30].
15:04:34 <riccardoAlbertoni> Thanks you bye
15:04:37 <AndreaPerego> Thanks, and bye!
15:04:38 <PWinstanley> bye
15:04:39 <Makx> bye
15:04:42 <Jaroslav_Pullmann> bye
15:04:43 <alejandra> thanks, and bye!
15:04:45 <Jaroslav_Pullmann> present-
15:04:47 <LarsG> Caroline_: reminds all to add F2F attendance to the wiki
15:04:55 <LarsG> bye
15:05:04 <AndreaPerego> RRSAgent, make logs world
15:05:11 <AndreaPerego> RRSAgent, draft minutes v2
15:05:11 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/10/23-dxwg-minutes.html AndreaPerego
15:05:27 <AndreaPerego> RRSAgent, make logs world
15:05:29 <AndreaPerego> RRSAgent, draft minutes v2
15:05:29 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/10/23-dxwg-minutes.html AndreaPerego
15:06:12 <AndreaPerego> meeting: Dataset Exchange Working Group Teleconference
15:06:26 <AndreaPerego> agenda: https://www.w3.org/2017/dxwg/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2017.10.23
15:06:29 <AndreaPerego> RRSAgent, draft minutes v2
15:06:29 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/10/23-dxwg-minutes.html AndreaPerego
15:06:47 <AndreaPerego> chair: Caroline
15:07:05 <AndreaPerego> regrets+ Antoine, Ruben, Simon, Thomas, Annette
15:07:08 <AndreaPerego> RRSAgent, draft minutes v2
15:07:08 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/10/23-dxwg-minutes.html AndreaPerego
15:08:14 <AndreaPerego> s/ACTION: on Jaroslav_Pullmann to create use case relating to real world entities as source of data//
15:08:16 <AndreaPerego> RRSAgent, draft minutes v2
15:08:16 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/10/23-dxwg-minutes.html AndreaPerego