13:52:24 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #lvtf
13:52:24 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2017/10/12-lvtf-irc
13:52:26 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
13:52:29 <trackbot> Meeting: Low Vision Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
13:52:29 <trackbot> Date: 12 October 2017
13:53:21 <allanj> Agenda+ 1.4.12 Push for 3:1 graphics contrast https://github.com/w3c/wcag21/issues/251  Agenda+ 1.4.12 'essential' and exceptions  https://github.com/w3c/wcag21/issues/181  Agenda+ 1.4.12 Essential  https://github.com/w3c/wcag21/issues/150  Agenda+ 1.4.12 rewording https://github.com/w3c/wcag21/issues/282  Agenda+ 1.4.11 questions about zoom content (ready to close?)  https://github.com/w3c/wcag21/issues/250  Agenda+ icon font technique https://github.c[CUT]
13:53:43 <allanj> agenda?
13:54:16 <allanj> agenda+ define vicusal indicators
13:58:33 <alastairc> alastairc has joined #lvtf
14:20:47 <Allanj> Allanj has joined #Lvtf
14:21:01 <Allanj> Agenda?
14:23:34 <Allanj>  Agenda+ 1.4.12 'essential' and exceptions
14:24:31 <Allanj> Zakim, close agenda 2
14:24:31 <Zakim> agendum 2, 1.4.12 Push for 3:1 graphics contrast https://github.com/w3c/wcag21/issues/251  Agenda+ 1.4.12 'essential' and exceptions  https://github.com/w3c/wcag21/issues/181
14:24:34 <Zakim> ... Agenda+ 1.4.12 Essential  https://github.com/w3c/wcag21/issues/150  Agenda+ 1.4.12 rewording https://github.com/w3c/wcag21/issues/282  Agenda+ 1.4.11 questions about zoom
14:24:34 <Zakim> ... content (ready to close?)  https://github.com/w3c/wcag21/issues/250  Agenda+ icon font technique https://github.c[CUT], closed
14:24:34 <Zakim> I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
14:24:38 <Zakim> 1. Understanding Graphics Contrast  https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/81151/Understanding2/results#xq1 [from allanj]
14:24:45 <Allanj> Age d
14:25:16 <Allanj> Agenda+  1.4.12 Push for 3:1 graphics contrast https://github.com/w3c/wcag21/issues/251
14:26:53 <Allanj> Agenda?
14:27:32 <Allanj> Close agenda 1
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14:50:23 <Allanj_> Allanj_ has joined #Lvtf
14:54:42 <Allanj_> Agenda?
15:00:08 <Glenda> Glenda has joined #lvtf
15:01:58 <JohnRochford> scribe: JohnRochford
15:02:13 <JohnRochford> zakim, open item 3
15:02:13 <Zakim> agendum 3. "define vicusal indicators" taken up [from allanj]
15:03:14 <JohnRochford> Jim: Lots of hours spent discussing the word "essential".
15:04:00 <laura> present+ Laura
15:04:03 <JohnRochford> Jim: Alistar says defining "visual indicators" is a good start.
15:04:08 <JohnRochford> present+ JohnRochford
15:04:17 <JohnRochford> present+ Allanj_
15:04:24 <alastairc> present+ alastairc
15:04:24 <JohnRochford> present+ Glenda
15:04:33 <JohnRochford> Present+ Shawn
15:04:33 <shawn> present+
15:04:36 <shawn> zakim, who is on the phone?
15:04:36 <Zakim> Present: JohnRochford, alastairc, allanj, scott, steverep, Laura, Allanj_, Glenda, Shawn
15:04:59 <shawn> present-scott, steverep
15:05:38 <shawn> present- Allanj_
15:05:41 <shawn> zakim, who is on the phone?
15:05:41 <Zakim> Present: JohnRochford, alastairc, allanj, Laura, Glenda, Shawn
15:05:57 <Glenda> This is the note defining visual identifier - Examples of essential visual identifiers of user interface components may include (a border, edge, or icon), current value (such as non-text visual indication of aria-valuenow on a slider) and current state (such as selection indicator, focus indicator) or other essential visual indication (which do not rely on color alone).
15:06:45 <Glenda> essential non-text visual identifiers of user interface components
15:07:45 <JohnRochford> Glenda: If the non-text visual identifier is removed, nobody would know what the component is.
15:08:01 <alastairc> Perhaps start with: Visual identifiers of user interface components are indicators that it is interactive, examples include...
15:08:13 <Glenda> just drop the word “essential”  becuase to be a visual identifier…is saying it is essential.
15:08:14 <Glenda> non-text visual identifiers of user interface components
15:08:56 <shawn> present+ ScottM
15:09:03 <alastairc> q+
15:10:28 <Allanj_> Ack a
15:10:47 <scott> scott has joined #lvtf
15:11:02 <JohnRochford> Alastair: A user interface component could have a border around a pen symbol, for example.
15:11:12 <JohnRochford> to indicate it's a button
15:12:34 <JohnRochford> Glenda: contrast is in the complete control of the visual-identifier creator
15:14:04 <Allanj_> Drop in a link please
15:14:22 <JohnRochford> Alistair: Icons do not have to be interactive.
15:14:52 <laura> https://rawgit.com/w3c/wcag21/graphics-contrast/understanding/21/graphics-contrast.html
15:15:17 <laura> https://rawgit.com/w3c/wcag21/user-interface-component-contrast-minimum/understanding/21/user-interface-component-contrast-minimum.html
15:15:23 <alastairc> My latest understanding doc can be previewed here: https://alastairc.ac/tmp/graphics-contrast.html
15:15:51 <alastairc> I've got some graphics in that version.
15:16:06 <JohnRochford> Jim: Do we have to lay out such as on hover rather than just have a border?
15:16:21 <JohnRochford> Glenda: Yes, it's not just a border.
15:16:24 <laura> All Understanding docs linked from: Accepted WCAG 2.1 SC: https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Accepted_WCAG_2.1_SC
15:17:34 <alastairc> suggest adding a background? or is that what creates the edge?
15:17:56 <JohnRochford> Glenda: Examples of visual indicators include a border, and an edge, and current state, such as a selection or a focus indicator.
15:18:44 <JohnRochford> Alistair and Glenda: A background indicates an edge.
15:19:34 <JohnRochford> Glenda: When we say "the edge", I think we should explain it in the understanding doc.
15:19:48 <Allanj> Allanj has joined #Lvtf
15:21:10 <JohnRochford> Glenda: By default, the natives are controlled by HTML, CSS, and the browser.
15:21:47 <JohnRochford> Glenda: Is the term "visual identifiers" strong enough?
15:23:57 <JohnRochford> Alistair: Do we worry about an image with strong attributes on only one side?
15:24:13 <JohnRochford> attributes, such as contrast
15:25:01 <JohnRochford> Glenda: We handled that with a 3-pixel border on the bottom.
15:25:48 <laura> http://www.glendathegood.com/a11y/lvtf/textinputborder.html
15:25:51 <Allanj> If i create a custom radio buttio
15:27:16 <JohnRochford> Glenda: I will add an example of good contrast only on one side, and poor contrast on the other 3 sides.
15:27:46 <JohnRochford> Laura: What if the thick border was on the top?
15:28:33 <JohnRochford> Glenda: Developers can do that, and it would technically pass, but it would have to go through usability with all humans .
15:29:05 <JohnRochford> Glenda: The SC does not require that the visual affordance exists.
15:29:05 <laura> http://www.glendathegood.com/a11y/lvtf/submitbuttonborder.html
15:29:12 <Allanj> if i create a custom radio button... it is two graphics ckecked and unchecked... falls to alastair. The indicator that it has focus and was changed is glenda?
15:30:24 <JohnRochford> Alistair: The contrast of the graphics would fall to me, yes.
15:31:52 <JohnRochford> Glenda: Should we separate graphics that are image files from those created by HTML and CSS?
15:32:22 <JohnRochford> Alistair: It's the concept, not the technology, which is good.
15:32:41 <shawn> agenda?
15:33:17 <shawn> zakim, close item 3
15:33:17 <Zakim> agendum 3, define vicusal indicators, closed
15:33:18 <Zakim> I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
15:33:18 <Zakim> 4. 1.4.12 'essential' and exceptions [from Allanj]
15:33:43 <alastairc> https://github.com/w3c/wcag21/issues/181
15:33:45 <shawn> zakim, take up item 4
15:33:45 <Zakim> agendum 4. "1.4.12 'essential' and exceptions" taken up [from Allanj]
15:35:34 <shawn> AlastairC will reply that these are addressed in the Understanding Doc
15:35:47 <shawn> zakim, take up next
15:35:47 <Zakim> agendum 5. "1.4.12 Push for 3:1 graphics contrast https://github.com/w3c/wcag21/issues/251" taken up [from Allanj]
15:36:37 <Allanj> We need to present the expert statements again from emails.
15:37:20 <JohnRochford> Alistairc: Jared Smith says the research is old about the displays that we use.
15:38:01 <JohnRochford> Alaistairc: Perhaps we put them in a Wiki?
15:38:56 <JohnRochford> Alaistair: I think the graphics and explanations in the understanding will "go a long way".
15:39:39 <Allanj> Will put on wiki . From gordon legge and agustus at smith kettlewell
15:40:20 <JohnRochford> I apologize, Alastairc, for my misspellings of your name.
15:40:26 <shawn> ACTION: Jim put expert statements related to contrast on wiki page for reference -- From gordon legge and agustus at smith kettlewell
15:40:27 <trackbot> Created ACTION-103 - Put expert statements related to contrast on wiki page for reference -- from gordon legge and agustus at smith kettlewell [on Jim Allan - due 2017-10-19].
15:40:41 <shawn> Alastair will comment on issue and point to wiki page
15:40:52 <laura> rrsagent, make minutes
15:40:52 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/10/12-lvtf-minutes.html laura
15:40:59 <shawn> agenda?
15:41:13 <Allanj> Icon font from steve
15:41:27 <shawn> agenda+ Agenda+ icon font technique https://github.com/w3c/wcag21/issues/297
15:41:35 <shawn> zakim, take up next
15:41:35 <Zakim> agendum 6. "Agenda+ icon font technique https://github.com/w3c/wcag21/issues/297" taken up [from shawn]
15:41:52 <Allanj> What can lvtf do to help
15:42:17 <Allanj> Def of icon font as non text
15:42:24 <alastairc> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Providing_a_Semantically_Identified_Icon_Font_with_role%3Dimg
15:43:50 <JohnRochford> Alastairc: As long as you have something to put role=image on, we should be good.
15:43:57 <shawn> work item is to get Laura's examples into Techniques
15:45:32 <JohnRochford> Laura & Alastairc: Speculating about techniques - after TPAC?
15:45:33 <shawn> and create links from Understanding to Techniques
15:47:02 <Allanj>  /me end meeting?
15:47:52 <Allanj> Is issue 250 ready to close
15:49:15 <shawn> Agenda+ 1.4.11 questions about zoom content (ready to close?)  https://github.com/w3c/wcag21/issues/250
15:49:22 <laura> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Accepted_WCAG_2.1_SC
15:49:25 <JohnRochford> Alastairc: I encourage everyone to read the understanding doc, which is recently updated.
15:49:54 <JohnRochford> the graphics-contrast understanding doc
15:50:25 <shawn> Agenda+ Schedule review of remaining Understanding docs: Zoom, Hover
15:51:49 <shawn> zakim, take up next
15:51:49 <Zakim> agendum 7. "1.4.11 questions about zoom content (ready to close?)  https://github.com/w3c/wcag21/issues/250" taken up [from shawn]
15:53:42 <shawn> zakim, take up next
15:53:42 <Zakim> agendum 8. "Schedule review of remaining Understanding docs: Zoom, Hover" taken up [from shawn]
15:53:42 <Allanj> Jim will ping steve about hover understanding. Zoom still needs work
15:53:58 <Allanj> Me
15:54:20 <Allanj> Need help. Will talk with ac
15:54:44 <Allanj> Apologies for poor cont
15:54:55 <Allanj> Bye
15:54:58 <laura> Bye
15:55:13 <shawn> Congrats for handling the massive amount of exchanges on these issues!
15:55:33 <shawn> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:55:33 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/10/12-lvtf-minutes.html shawn
15:55:56 <shawn> Chair: Jim, Shawn
15:56:08 <shawn> present+ (Steve_at_end)
15:56:34 <shawn> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:56:34 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/10/12-lvtf-minutes.html shawn
15:57:29 <shawn> trackbot, end meeting
15:57:29 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
15:57:29 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been JohnRochford, alastairc, allanj, scott, steverep, Laura, Allanj_, Glenda, Shawn, ScottM, (Steve_at_end)
15:57:37 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
15:57:37 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/10/12-lvtf-minutes.html trackbot
15:57:38 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
15:57:38 <RRSAgent> I see 1 open action item saved in http://www.w3.org/2017/10/12-lvtf-actions.rdf :
15:57:38 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Jim put expert statements related to contrast on wiki page for reference -- From gordon legge and agustus at smith kettlewell [1]
15:57:38 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2017/10/12-lvtf-irc#T15-40-26