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15:46:20 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2017/09/13-apa-irc
15:46:22 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
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15:46:24 <trackbot> Meeting: Accessible Platform Architectures Working Group Teleconference
15:46:24 <trackbot> Date: 13 September 2017
15:46:35 <janina> agenda?
15:46:42 <janina> agenda+ preview agenda with items from two minutes
15:46:42 <janina> agenda+ Input Events [See Below]
15:46:42 <janina> agenda+ CSS Task Force -- Ian
15:46:42 <janina> agenda+ Actions Checkin (Specs) https://www.w3.org/WAI/APA/track/products/8
15:46:43 <janina> agenda+ new on TR http://www.w3.org/TR/tr-status-drafts.html
15:46:44 <janina> agenda+ Other Business
15:46:47 <janina> agenda+ next and future meetings
15:46:49 <janina> agenda+ be done
15:58:25 <johanneswilm> johanneswilm has joined #APA
15:58:44 <johanneswilm> present+ Johannes Wilm
15:58:46 <chaals> chaals has joined #apa
15:59:03 <chaals> regrets+ Chaals
15:59:16 <johanneswilm> present+ JohannesWilm
15:59:54 <johanneswilm> I don't think I received the meeting webex password
16:00:27 <Gottfried> Gottfried has joined #apa
16:00:30 <MichielBijl> regrets+
16:00:45 <janina>  One moment, Johannes ...
16:01:46 <joanie> present+ Joanmarie_Diggs
16:02:17 <tink> tink has joined #apa
16:02:19 <Gottfried> present+
16:02:35 <janina> present+
16:02:39 <janina> chair: Janina
16:02:43 <tink> present+
16:04:10 <florian> florian has joined #apa
16:04:12 <janina> Gottfried, not sure what to advise. Do you have sip?
16:05:55 <MichaelC> present+
16:06:11 <tink> regrets+ Ian
16:06:23 <Gottfried> scribe: Gottfried
16:06:28 <janina> zakim, next item
16:06:28 <Zakim> agendum 1. "preview agenda with items from two minutes" taken up [from janina]
16:07:38 <Gottfried> Michael: WCAG 2.1 wide review published yesterday
16:08:02 <Gottfried> janina: We are invited to do a horizontal review
16:08:30 <janina> zakim, next item
16:08:30 <Zakim> agendum 2. "Input Events" taken up [from See Below]
16:09:10 <Gottfried> janina: Johannes gave us some questions a while ago - we need to better understand them
16:09:30 <Gottfried> ... Do we have an issue tracking page for input events?
16:09:45 <Gottfried> johanneswilm: Under w3c, input events
16:09:56 <MichaelC> https://github.com/w3c/input-events
16:10:22 <Gottfried> janina: Leonie talked to the JAWS people.
16:10:36 <Gottfried> ... Walk through Johannes' questions?
16:10:38 <MichaelC> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-apa/2017Mar/0013.html
16:11:09 <MichaelC> rrsagent, make minutes
16:11:09 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/09/13-apa-minutes.html MichaelC
16:11:17 <Gottfried> > 1. From an accessibility perspective the following would be valuable:
16:11:18 <Gottfried> > - A notification to ATs that functions like text insertions were completed
16:11:20 <Gottfried> > so that positive reinforcement could be provided to the user.
16:11:44 <Gottfried> johanneswilm: JavaScript gets a notification, can react. At this stage, any DOM modification should be done.
16:12:25 <Gottfried> ... Your 2nd point: Create your own events. There are two ways for this.
16:12:48 <Gottfried> ... JavaScript can make events.  If interacting through some other API, it depends on the browser.
16:13:08 <Gottfried> ... We have made a list of all editing actions that any of the browsers allow.
16:13:33 <Gottfried> ... And what would be consistent with what's already existing on the browsers.
16:13:40 <Gottfried> ... No browser supports all editing actions today.
16:14:23 <Gottfried> Leonie: I spoke to Glyn Gordan, original developer for JAWS on Windows.
16:14:50 <Gottfried> ... Notifications would need to be configurable by the user.
16:15:34 <Gottfried> ... No way to provide out-of-band information in a locale-independent fashion.  Windows API does not support this currently.
16:15:54 <Gottfried> ... We would need to talk to the platform API people.
16:16:14 <johanneswilm> +q
16:16:24 <janina> ack h
16:16:28 <janina> ack j
16:16:33 <chaals> s/Glyn Gordan/Glen Gordon/
16:17:26 <Gottfried> johanneswilm: If the user makes an edit action, Javascript gets notified, and can either let the browser do the action, or do it itself.
16:18:44 <johanneswilm> anyone in the call?
16:18:48 <Gottfried> ... By default, there is no Javascript code to catch this - needs to be coded.
16:20:35 <Gottfried> johanneswilm: Typically, the application wants to be notified about all editing actions of the user.
16:21:42 <Gottfried> tink: There is no way for a meaningful information to record on the DOM tree.
16:21:52 <Gottfried> johanneswilm: It is not clear by looking at the DOM changes.
16:22:25 <Gottfried> ... We would need this before the input event is handled.
16:22:47 <Gottfried> ... Also, the application may want to ignore some edit actions (e.g. bold).
16:24:35 <Gottfried> tink: As far as i know, these edit events would not always occur on screenreaders.
16:24:49 <Gottfried> ... Maybe i need to look at how screenreader do this in Word.
16:25:28 <Gottfried> Joanmarie: When i press at a toolbar button, i get a text attribute change event.
16:25:46 <Gottfried> ... So if it notifies me about text made bold, i can assume it was the bold button.
16:26:31 <Gottfried> ... The user agent should be able to identify the appropriate text attribute that was changed
16:27:01 <Gottfried> janina: The specific use case is when we are editing content through browsers.
16:27:19 <Gottfried> ... Word-processing style edits
16:27:41 <johanneswilm> +q
16:28:15 <Gottfried> Joanmarie: Looking at the list of edit actions, all could be communicated by a user agent through my platform.
16:29:11 <Gottfried> ... Don't know how one would go from the input event spec to make this happen - but should not be difficult.
16:29:33 <Gottfried> johanneswilm: List of actions is fairly long because different browsers support different events.
16:30:24 <Gottfried> ... E.g. Safari supports changing text color.  This creates problems between editors and users - because nothing happens.
16:30:54 <Gottfried> ... List does not contain all actions that would be desirable.
16:31:40 <Gottfried> ... Only actions will be executed if Javascript handles it.
16:32:00 <Gottfried> ... Sometimes, there is no input event for special actions, e.g. "insert citation".
16:32:45 <Gottfried> ... Making a JS editor is a multi-year effort. They could add information for screenreaders.
16:33:20 <Gottfried> janina: Which year are we in?
16:33:44 <Gottfried> johanneswilm: I have been actively involved since about 2014/15. Shipped recently for two browers.
16:34:06 <Gottfried> ... There is a fairly small number for building editors, probably 20-30.
16:34:27 <Gottfried> janina: Next steps?
16:35:13 <Gottfried> Joanmarie: Safari should be okay.  But i don't know what Windows has.
16:35:45 <Gottfried> ... Adding types for edit actions in Webkit-TGK.
16:36:21 <Gottfried> johanneswilm: Looking at Word processors, are there things that browsers currently don't support, but we need them.
16:36:35 <Gottfried> s/them./them?
16:36:52 <Gottfried> johanneswilm: Full-day meeting on text editing at TPAC.
16:37:00 <Gottfried> janina: Can we have time together?
16:37:03 <Gottfried> johanneswilm: yes
16:37:35 <Gottfried> tink: Tuesday for editing tf
16:38:02 <Gottfried> johanneswilm: I can present your ideas to the meeting.  But you are welcome to join the meeting and present yourself.
16:38:27 <Gottfried> janina: Most of us will be at TPAC in San Francisco. So we should make progress on this.
16:39:33 <Gottfried> Joanmarie: I can look into Webkit and then tell what could be done.  And maybe make a demo of what could be done.
16:39:45 <Gottfried> tink: Would be extremely helpful.
16:40:19 <Gottfried> johanneswilm: In a demo world, all events will be executed.  But if you use the actual editors, they cancel about 75% of the events via Javascript.
16:40:38 <Gottfried> janina: We might need to negotiate about this.
16:41:06 <Gottfried> johanneswilm: tinyMCE, CKeditor, etc.
16:41:20 <johanneswilm> prosemirror
16:41:24 <johanneswilm> substance.io
16:42:31 <Gottfried> johanneswilm: tinyMCE and CKeditor are used by Wordpress and typo3.
16:43:15 <Gottfried> janina: We should think in terms of non-screenreader AT. No idea yet about possible issues.
16:43:29 <Gottfried> ... Think about use cases outside screenreaders.
16:44:10 <Gottfried> Gottfried: What about keyboard users without screenreaders?
16:44:25 <Gottfried> janina: Key bindings as an alternative for pressing buttons.
16:44:32 <Gottfried> tink: Worth picking up at TPAC.
16:45:09 <Gottfried> janina: Thank you, Johannes, for joining us.
16:46:00 <janina> zakim, close this item
16:46:00 <Zakim> I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, janina
16:46:04 <janina> zakim, take up item 5
16:46:04 <Zakim> agendum 5. "new on TR http://www.w3.org/TR/tr-status-drafts.html" taken up [from janina]
16:46:33 <Gottfried> janina: I get an action on WCAG 2.1.
16:47:11 <Gottfried> ...
16:47:14 <MichaelC> action: Janina to review WCAG 2.1 https://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG21/ - due 3 Oct
16:47:15 <trackbot> Created ACTION-2144 - Review wcag 2.1 https://www.w3.org/tr/wcag21/ [on Janina Sajka - due 2017-10-03].
16:47:58 <Gottfried> janina: who else?
16:49:17 <Gottfried> MichaelC: Sent horizontal review requests to others.  In APA, we should look at usefulness for accessibility, coherence, conflicts with other specs, conflicts with other things that WCAG does not provide a hook for.
16:49:26 <MichaelC> -> https://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG21/ WCAG 2.1
16:49:40 <Gottfried> janina: Make a list of things that should be added in the future.
16:49:45 <MichaelC> action-2144: https://www.w3.org/WAI/APA/wiki/Web_Content_Accessibility_Guidelines_(WCAG)_2.1
16:49:45 <trackbot> Notes added to action-2144 Review wcag 2.1 https://www.w3.org/tr/wcag21/.
16:50:15 <MichaelC> -> https://www.w3.org/TR/longtasks-1/ Long Tasks API 1
16:50:35 <Gottfried> This document defines an API that web page authors can use to detect presence of “long tasks” that monopolize the UI thread for extended periods of time and block other critical tasks from being executed - e.g. reacting to user input.
16:50:52 <Gottfried> MichaelC: Do we need to comment on this?
16:52:08 <Gottfried> ... My guess is that it does what it would need to do for us - but not really sure.
16:52:42 <Gottfried> ... It's an algorithmic spec, hard to see what it does.
16:53:23 <Gottfried> Joanmarie: Could be some relevance for a11y related events. Can we come back to it?
16:53:34 <Gottfried> s/a11y/AT
16:53:41 <Gottfried> janina: Come back in Jan?
16:53:48 <MichaelC> action: cooper to ping review on Long Tasks API 1 - due 4 months
16:53:49 <trackbot> Created ACTION-2145 - Ping review on long tasks api 1 [on Michael Cooper - due 2018-01-13].
16:54:50 <MichaelC> -> https://www.w3.org/TR/paint-timing/ Paint Timing 1
16:54:56 <Gottfried> This document defines an API that can be used to capture a series of key moments (First Paint, First Contentful Paint) during pageload which developers care about.
16:55:39 <Gottfried> MichaelC: Another algorithmic spec.  Can't tell what it does.  My guess is we are not interested, but could be wrong.
16:55:50 <Gottfried> janina: Agree.
16:55:56 <Gottfried> (no objections)
16:56:40 <Gottfried> MichaelC: Shadow DOM needs attention.
16:56:50 <Gottfried> janina: Looking for Shane.
16:57:34 <Gottfried> Joanmarie: I will email him about this.
16:57:53 <chaals> [Shadow DOM probably does need attention...]
16:59:11 <Gottfried> zakim, bye
16:59:11 <Zakim> Zakim has left #apa
16:59:11 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees have been Johannes, Wilm, JohannesWilm, Joanmarie_Diggs, Gottfried, janina, tink, MichaelC
16:59:20 <Gottfried> rrsagent, make log public
16:59:26 <Gottfried> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:59:26 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/09/13-apa-minutes.html Gottfried
16:59:39 <janina> ~,
17:04:46 <janina> janina has joined #apa
17:05:23 <janina> janina has changed the topic to: APA Teleconference; Wednesday 20 September at 16:00Z
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