IRC log of social on 2017-09-05

Timestamps are in UTC.

17:02:14 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #social
17:02:14 [RRSAgent]
logging to
17:02:16 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
17:02:16 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #social
17:02:18 [trackbot]
Meeting: Social Web Working Group Teleconference
17:02:18 [trackbot]
Date: 05 September 2017
17:02:32 [tantek]
17:02:44 [tantek]
17:02:45 [ajordan]
tantek: heya!
17:02:49 [ajordan]
17:02:50 [cwebber2]
17:03:02 [tantek]
Zakim, who is here?
17:03:02 [Zakim]
Present: tantek, ajordan, cwebber
17:03:04 [Zakim]
On IRC I see RRSAgent, tantek, KevinMarks, timbl, cdchapman, csarven, xmpp-social, ben_thatmustbeme, dlongley, jankusanagi_, sandro, MMN-o, cwebber2, ajordan, wilkie, dwhly, Loqi,
17:03:04 [Zakim]
... bigbluehat, jet, rhiaro, Gargron, oshepherd, bwn, nightpool, trackbot, jaywink, sknebel, tsyesika, astronouth7303, puckipedia, raucao, mattl, DenSchub, saranix, aaronpk,
17:03:04 [Zakim]
... bitbear, albino
17:03:10 [tantek]
present+ sandro
17:03:17 [jaywink]
17:03:23 [sandro]
17:03:24 [cwebber2]
scribe: cwebber
17:03:27 [cwebber2]
scribenick: cwebber
17:03:54 [cwebber2]
tantek: first thing to do is to review last week's minutes
17:04:08 [cwebber2]
topic: review last week's minutes
17:04:30 [sandro]
17:04:35 [tantek]
17:06:27 [ajordan]
17:06:42 [tantek]
PROPOSED: approve minutes ttps://
17:06:44 [cwebber2]
17:06:45 [sandro]
17:06:54 [ajordan]
17:07:25 [cwebber2]
RESOLVED: approve minutes
17:07:31 [cwebber2]
topic: websub
17:07:38 [cwebber2]
tantek: last week was issue #119 (?)
17:07:45 [cwebber2]
tantek: sandro was not convinced changes were not normative
17:07:50 [cwebber2]
tantek: julian commented since then
17:07:54 [tantek]
17:07:55 [Loqi]
[marten-de-vries] #119 'the hub terminates the subscription'
17:08:10 [cwebber2]
sandro: julian said some reassuring things, I guess we're in the land of "I need to ask Ralph" because it looks probably ok to me but it's not up to me
17:08:25 [cwebber2]
tantek: the best we can do is provide Ralph with enough background and information to make a judgement call
17:08:58 [cwebber2]
sandro: I wish we didn't have to, it doesn't fit in the process; if we say it doesn't need a new CR it doesn't involve ralph until we do another PR
17:09:35 [cwebber2]
sandro: if we say this is not a normative change and it turns out we're wrong, we won't know until we go back, kind of a rude way to find out
17:10:05 [ajordan]
17:10:11 [cwebber2]
sandro: how we've been doing in the last year is to ask Ralph for advanced ruling but I've done that like 4 times.... I guess it's time for another one though. or we could make another normative draft but aaron and julian aren't here
17:10:22 [cwebber2]
sandro: and aaron hasn't weighed in on the normative aspect yet
17:10:31 [cwebber2]
tantek: aaron deferred to julian's comment when I asked him
17:10:46 [cwebber2]
tantek: julien hasn't answered the question of whether it's normative or not, just about whether it'd break
17:11:05 [cwebber2]
sandro: my interpretation is it is a change in behavior, but a change during failure, so it won't break things that are working
17:11:21 [cwebber2]
tantek: I guess that depends on how normative / well defined our error handling is
17:11:27 [cwebber2]
sandro: this makes it more defined
17:11:41 [cwebber2]
sandro: since it only comes up in an error condition that shouldn't break anything that was working before
17:11:52 [cwebber2]
sandro: where it hurts is if it says it was conformant
17:12:03 [cwebber2]
sandro: also we're only talking about hubs, a pretty small audience for now
17:12:15 [cwebber2]
tantek: yes and we're talking about the assertion that existing hubs are compatible with this change
17:12:16 [cwebber2]
sandro: right
17:12:31 [cwebber2]
sandro: that was my closing comment, make sure the hub-masters were all okay with it
17:12:49 [cwebber2]
tantek: I think you're right that it's a weakness in the w3c process about normative changes for error conditions...
17:13:04 [cwebber2]
tantek: there are 2 things going on. 1) I don't think it's affecting interop when things work, which is the point of interop
17:13:45 [cwebber2]
tantek: however, the handling of errors is where we often find security and privacy problems in computer systems in general. so if I were Ralph that's what I'd ask, how would it affect security and privacy if at all. I'd want the group to have an answer to that question before making a ruling. I don't know, I'm just asking it
17:13:47 [cwebber2]
sandro: yes
17:13:57 [cwebber2]
sandro: since it's limiting behavior it's changing a MAY to a MUST
17:14:12 [cwebber2]
tantek: it may close some holes, but we're not sure
17:14:32 [cwebber2]
sandro: actually it's changing a MAY to a SHOULD... no wait a MUST, the hub MUST keep the subscription alive till the end of the lease duration
17:14:38 [cwebber2]
tantek: which we believe hubs are already doing
17:14:47 [cwebber2]
sandro: we know some are, haven't heard confirmation if all are
17:15:00 [cwebber2]
tantek: this sounds like a normative change since we're tightening the requirements
17:15:08 [cwebber2]
sandro: def a normative change since we're adding a MUST
17:15:11 [ajordan]
17:15:19 [cwebber2]
sandro: but it's a normative change that doesn't restart the CR process?
17:16:21 [cwebber2]
tantek: CR period is when you're supposed to be making changes based on implementations. We believe this tightening the CR requirements... we believe it's on what implementations do, that the tightening of the requirements will lead to more interop not less. not a new feature, just a tightening of requirements
17:16:30 [cwebber2]
sandro: right... not exactly how I'll phrase it but I think I can make the case
17:16:44 [cwebber2]
tantek: one of the reasons the process tries to make us restart like that is for IPR reasons
17:16:56 [cwebber2]
tantek: that's typically around the scope of a document, what's essential to implement
17:17:08 [cwebber2]
tantek: this is one of those things to implement that way
17:17:31 [cwebber2]
tantek: some random hubmaker could raise an issue though, that's the theoretical problem we have to give a heads up about and ask for a ruling at his level
17:17:49 [cwebber2]
sandro: I think the case simply has to be made that it's not invalidating reviews
17:18:04 [cwebber2]
tantek: I would even say it's a non-substitative normative change
17:18:12 [cwebber2]
sandro: that seems like a reasonable description
17:18:18 [cwebber2]
tantek: I believe this is one of the things CR is for
17:19:28 [sandro]
PROPOSED: The proposed resolution to websub 119 in while normative, does not hurt any interop, does not break implementations, etc, and should not be considered substantive; CR clock should not be restarted
17:19:28 [Loqi]
[aaronpk] Previous text:
17:19:28 [Loqi]
> Hubs SHOULD retry notifications up to self-imposed limits on the number of times and the overall time period to retry. When the failing delivery exceeds the hub's limits, the hub terminates the subscription.
17:19:28 [Loqi]
Proposed text:
17:19:28 [Loqi]
17:19:53 [sandro]
17:20:05 [cwebber2]
17:20:57 [tantek]
17:21:02 [ajordan]
sandro: maybe "current understanding of impls _known to the WG_"?
17:21:04 [ajordan]
17:21:31 [sandro]
ajordan, no it's more about in theory -- it shouldnt BE ABLE to break any impls
17:21:42 [tantek]
17:22:24 [sandro]
RESOLVED: The proposed resolution to websub 119 in while normative, does not hurt any interop, does not break implementations, etc, and should not be considered substantive; CR clock should not be restarted
17:22:25 [Loqi]
[aaronpk] Previous text:
17:22:25 [Loqi]
> Hubs SHOULD retry notifications up to self-imposed limits on the number of times and the overall time period to retry. When the failing delivery exceeds the hub's limits, the hub terminates the subscription.
17:22:25 [Loqi]
Proposed text:
17:22:25 [Loqi]
17:22:41 [sandro]
RRSAgent, pointer?
17:22:41 [RRSAgent]
17:22:46 [cwebber2]
tantek: I'll let you capture this and take it to Ralph accordingly
17:24:15 [Loqi]
17:24:28 [ajordan]
17:25:16 [cwebber2]
sandro: maybe in this case we can discuss this in the context of the PR transition if we're otherwise ready to go
17:25:19 [cwebber2]
tantek: that was my hope
17:25:27 [cwebber2]
sandro: yes we did decide that 3 weeks ago didn't we
17:25:29 [cwebber2]
tantek: yes
17:25:48 [cwebber2]
tantek: we've been trying to resolve it as in terms of make transition to PR
17:25:55 [tantek] needs to be updated
17:27:05 [cwebber2]
tantek: do you have everything you need to take this PR transition to ralph?
17:27:07 [cwebber2]
sandro: I think so
17:27:20 [cwebber2]
tantek: great
17:27:45 [cwebber2]
tantek: okay, next? I think that's it for websub
17:28:11 [cwebber2]
topic: PTD
17:28:13 [cwebber2]
tantek: nothing new
17:28:17 [cwebber2]
topic: JF2
17:28:21 [cwebber2]
tantek: I didn't see ben_thatmustbeme here
17:28:28 [cwebber2]
tantek: I don't know of anything new on JF2
17:28:35 [cwebber2]
tantek: I know he had some pending merges from AJ?
17:28:42 [cwebber2]
topic: ActivityPub
17:28:56 [cwebber2]
tantek: do we have a normative CR?
17:29:12 [cwebber2]
sandro: since it was a normative CR there was a one week hiatus, hopefully will go out thursday
17:29:17 [cwebber2]
sandro: hopefully will go out within next few hours
17:29:23 [ben_thatmustbeme]
eep, just realized, holiday threw me off
17:29:33 [ben_thatmustbeme]
no updates on JF2
17:29:46 [ajordan]
17:29:49 [ajordan]
17:30:02 [Loqi]
Sandro made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/WebSub PR]]
17:30:06 [ajordan]
tantek, ^^^
17:30:12 [cwebber2]
cwebber2: no other news
17:30:14 [tantek]
ack ajordan
17:30:32 [cwebber2]
ajordan: chris I was going to mention that didn't we change the website so the test suite was more prominently advertised
17:30:47 [cwebber2]
17:31:38 [KevinMarks]
KevinMarks has joined #social
17:31:42 [cwebber2]
cwebber2: yes
17:31:48 [cwebber2]
ajordan: turn your computer off and on again
17:31:53 [cwebber2]
cwebber2: sounds good will do it while scribing
17:32:00 [ajordan]
17:32:11 [tantek]
17:32:22 [cwebber2]
tantek: we have a couple of implementation reports and the spec links here ^^ and that only links to teh template
17:32:33 [cwebber2]
tantek: I was requesting we actually directly list existing implementation reports there
17:33:06 [cwebber2]
cwebber2: I can do it today
17:33:15 [ajordan]
cwebber2, I can file an issue on GitLab if it'll help you
17:33:57 [cwebber2]
cwebber2: oh yeah and mastodon started rolling out in their CR this week
17:34:12 [cwebber2]
tantek: ben_thatmustbeme said no updates on JF2
17:34:17 [cwebber2]
ajordan: I still have changes to send in
17:34:20 [cwebber2]
tantek: ok
17:34:39 [cwebber2]
topic: SocialCG update
17:35:15 [sandro]
scribe: sandro
17:35:20 [ajordan]
scribenick: ajordan
17:35:27 [sandro]
scribe: ajordan
17:35:31 [ajordan]
cwebber2: we talked a lot about the extensions and the tag type
17:35:46 [ajordan]
I think we talked about the context as well and LDS as well
17:35:48 [cwebber2]
17:35:49 [Loqi]
[Amy Guy] ActivityStreams 2.0 Terms
17:35:57 [ajordan]
the problem is if you ended up linking to the context, like it was this
17:36:18 [ajordan]
... and it didn't have sensitive in the terms and an old instance of Mastodon was running
17:36:45 [ajordan]
... if that old instance cached the context signatures would invalidate because e.g. sensitive would be dropped
17:36:52 [ajordan]
... after that sandro ended up posting a solution
17:37:03 [sandro]
17:37:14 [sandro]
17:37:15 [Loqi]
[cwebber] #9 LD Signatures and json-ld contexts which grow
17:37:49 [ajordan]
cwebber2: so we're not talking about versioning vocabs, that could be a disaster
17:37:51 [ajordan]
terms are the same
17:38:01 [ajordan]
it's just the JSON-LD context which gets thrown in every time we add something new to it
17:38:29 [ajordan]
so e.g. when Mastodon ships a version with the 1.7 version, if a new version comes out with the 1.8 context then the old version will pull down the 1.8 context and cache it
17:38:39 [ajordan]
... major topic of discussion, ended up having a good solution
17:38:49 [ajordan]
... I think that was the big thing, that resolution actually happened afterwards
17:38:58 [ajordan]
sandro: there was another aspect that we didn't resolve
17:39:07 [ajordan]
... we still haven't figured out basically the governance question
17:39:16 [ajordan]
... how do we decide which terms get added to the AS2 namespace and when?
17:39:26 [ajordan]
... in general terms we get it but now we need specific
17:39:32 [ajordan]
... criteria, resolution process, etc.
17:39:50 [ajordan]
... we left that undecided in part because we don't have aaronpk and we think he'd want to be involved
17:39:59 [ajordan]
tantek: isn't there a SWICG repo for this?
17:40:02 [Loqi]
Sandro made 2 edits to [[Socialwg/WebSub PR]]
17:40:18 [ajordan]
sandro: there is a "general" SocialCG repo with a bunch of high-level technical issues
17:40:29 [sandro]
17:40:29 [ajordan]
cwebber2: but we should probably add a new one for the extension process, is that what you're saying tantek?
17:40:45 [ajordan]
tantek: yeah that seems like a good idea, I'd like to see these captured somewhere where we can have a threaded discussion
17:40:56 [ajordan]
cwebber2: do we want to do a resolution?
17:41:11 [ajordan]
tantek: if it's been scribed we can just do it after the meeting
17:41:17 [ajordan]
cwebber2: sounds good
17:41:20 [tantek]
17:41:28 [ajordan]
tantek: sounds good, any other items for today's SocialWG meeting?
17:41:45 [ajordan]
sandro: just to follow that up a bit I know Gargron was pushing for this to get in the namespace before they do a release
17:41:58 [ajordan]
... but I think cwebber2 ended up convincing them to do an embedded context?
17:42:07 [ajordan]
cwebber2: yeah they ended up doing something like this
17:42:11 [cwebber2]
{"sensitive": "as:sensitive"}
17:42:24 [ajordan]
... so you just add an embedded context like so
17:42:28 [ajordan]
sandro: but is he waiting this?
17:42:31 [ajordan]
cwebber2: I don't think he's waiting
17:42:42 [ajordan]
... that question happened so fast and we were kinda on a deadline
17:42:57 [ajordan]
... we said "I guess just use terms that aren't in the AS2 namespace"
17:43:04 [ajordan]
... in the future we should find a more organized way for this
17:43:23 [ajordan]
... e.g. giving people permission to temporarily "lease out" a name that hasn't been specified yet
17:43:30 [ajordan]
... just do a temporary hand-wave kinda thing
17:43:38 [ajordan]
sandro: it's interesting how much you can't change it later
17:44:01 [ajordan]
... I want to say "oh we can just change this later" but actually Gargron is shipping this to many admins who might not upgrade away from this relase for a year
17:44:14 [ajordan]
tantek: definitely good real-world experience on some of the constraints that might shape your process
17:44:29 [ajordan]
... some of the ??? problems you might encounter
17:44:35 [ajordan]
... how do you deal with deployed implementations
17:44:58 [ajordan]
... I think these are important questions that whatever process you come up with should answer
17:45:20 [ajordan]
sandro: one interesting thing is that historically we said we'd delegate to the CG after the WG shut down
17:45:32 [ajordan]
... it might not hurt to have a resolution on the record saying we definitely delegate
17:45:38 [ajordan]
tantek: I think I did that resolution a week ago?
17:45:44 [ajordan]
cwebber2: I don't think so
17:46:31 [cwebber2]
scribe: cwebber2
17:46:45 [tantek]
17:47:01 [cwebber2]
cwebber2: oh right, okay
17:47:37 [ajordan]
cwebber2++ for chairing
17:47:38 [Loqi]
cwebber2 has 101 karma
17:47:42 [ajordan]
tantek++ for chairing
17:47:42 [Loqi]
tantek has 72 karma in this channel (385 overall)
17:47:48 [ajordan]
uhh for scribing oops
17:48:05 [cwebber2]
tantek: we're waiting on updated websub CR/PR but I think we don't need to meet next week
17:48:25 [tantek]
17:48:34 [cwebber2]
cwebber2: I think it'll take 2 weeks for me to get enough on the test suite for the next meeting
17:48:41 [cwebber2]
tantek: ok next meeting is two weeks out
17:48:46 [cwebber2]
tantek: great work everyone, talk next time
17:49:06 [cwebber2]
trackbot, end meeting
17:49:06 [trackbot]
Zakim, list attendees
17:49:06 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been tantek, ajordan, cwebber, sandro, jaywink
17:49:08 [tantek]
cwebber++ thanks for scribing
17:49:08 [Loqi]
cwebber has 25 karma
17:49:14 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, please draft minutes
17:49:14 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate trackbot
17:49:15 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, bye
17:49:15 [RRSAgent]
I see no action items
17:54:22 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #social
17:54:22 [RRSAgent]
logging to
17:54:27 [cwebber2]
RRSAgent, please draft minutes
17:54:27 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate cwebber2
17:54:37 [cwebber2]
no luck though RRSAgent
17:54:57 [sandro]
looks fine to me
17:55:30 [tantek]
sandro, a-ha so restarting your computer *did* fix it then (clearing some swap presumably)
17:57:17 [cwebber2]
psh yeah NOW it's fine
18:00:01 [Loqi]
Cwebber2 made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2017-09-05-minutes]]
18:00:09 [cwebber2] issue added re: extensions process
18:00:10 [Loqi]
[cwebber] #19 ActivityStreams extensions process
18:00:37 [sandro]
geez, not github's not working right for me - layout is all messed up
18:00:47 [sandro]
in multiple browsers, logged in and lot
18:04:42 [cwebber2]
sandro: have you tried turning github off and on
18:04:56 [cwebber2]
the whole thing
18:05:02 [cwebber2]
just press the restart button
18:08:33 [sandro]
I cant find the power switch. someone, get me a toddler.
18:11:41 [sknebel]
apparently they broke their CORS policy
18:11:45 [sknebel]
blocking their own CSS
18:14:20 [sandro]
18:14:37 [sknebel]
or just a missing file from the CDN, not sure. anyhow, it works again for me
18:19:36 [cwebber2]
Captain, we've got to eject the warp CORS
19:11:23 [KevinMarks_]
KevinMarks_ has joined #social
19:15:24 [KevinMarks]
KevinMarks has joined #social
19:58:39 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #social
19:58:50 [Loqi]
good riddance
20:08:32 [KevinMarks]
KevinMarks has joined #social
20:10:25 [timbl]
timbl has joined #social
21:15:06 [Gargron]
i started dabbling in my youtube project (codename "kobold" for now), it's ridiculous how unsure i am about the storage schema now, lol. either i approach it like in mastodon, or i do something different. no clue what's best. afraid to commit same mistakes.
21:15:45 [eprodrom]
eprodrom has joined #social
21:29:49 [cwebber2]
Gargron: the great thing about that phase is you can make massive experiments and switch things out and you've got no users yet to be upset about the upchurn by a big ol' refactoring
21:29:58 [cwebber2]
Gargron: I look forward to seeing more about MediaKobold ;)
21:32:22 [cwebber2]
Gargron: btw I do think you'll have a lot of fun with postgres + jsonb
21:37:52 [xmpp-social]
[ajordan] sandro: the SocialCG org homepage layout used to be borked too; I reported it but I've no idea if it got fixed
21:38:21 [xmpp-social]
[ajordan] Gagron: have fun :-)
21:38:32 [xmpp-social]
[ajordan] Second systems are great
21:40:26 [xmpp-social]
[ajordan] Also sandro
21:40:29 [xmpp-social]
21:58:11 [cdchapman]
cdchapman has joined #social
22:20:29 [KevinMarks]
KevinMarks has joined #social
22:52:28 [KevinMarks]
KevinMarks has joined #social