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14:31:59 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
14:32:02 <trackbot> Meeting: Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference
14:32:02 <trackbot> Date: 05 September 2017
14:32:04 <AWK> zakim, who is on the phone?
14:32:04 <Zakim> Present: AWK, KimD, JakeAbma, Joshue108, JF, shawn, shadi, MichaelC, MikeGower, Laura, Detlev, Mike_Pluke, Makoto, Melanie_Philipp, Katie_Haritos-Shea, marcjohlic, Kathy,
14:32:07 <Zakim> ... alastairc, Glenda, david-macdonald, jasonjgw, Mike, Elledge, dboudreau, chriscm, jon_avila, kirkwood, JanMcSorley, Roy, Wilco, lisa, Greg_Lowney, bruce-bailey, steverep,
14:32:07 <Zakim> ... Brooks_Newton, Kim
14:32:13 <AWK> present: AWK
14:32:17 <AWK> zakim, who is on the phone?
14:32:17 <Zakim> Present: AWK
14:32:50 <AWK> regrets+ Chris_Loiselle, Denis_Boudreau
14:33:13 <AWK> regrets+ Pietro_Cirrincione
14:33:19 <AWK> Zakim, agenda?
14:33:19 <Zakim> I see 1 item remaining on the agenda:
14:33:20 <Zakim> 3. Planning - next phase/steps discussion [from Joshue108]
14:33:28 <AWK> Zakim, clear agenda
14:33:28 <Zakim> agenda cleared
14:34:07 <AWK> agenda+ Device Sensors and next publication
14:34:12 <AWK> agenda+ TPAC
14:34:24 <AWK> agenda+ Tracking sheet and signups: https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Accepted_WCAG_2.1_SC
14:34:41 <AWK> agenda+ Resolving outstanding comments
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14:57:03 <KimD> Present+ KimD
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14:59:47 <steverep> present+steverep
15:00:00 <interaccess> trackbot, start meeting
15:00:03 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
15:00:06 <trackbot> Meeting: Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference
15:00:06 <trackbot> Date: 05 September 2017
15:00:10 <Greg> Greg has joined #ag
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15:00:14 <Joshue108> zakim, agenda?
15:00:15 <Zakim> I see 4 items remaining on the agenda:
15:00:15 <Zakim> 1. Device Sensors and next publication [from AWK]
15:00:15 <Zakim> 2. TPAC [from AWK]
15:00:15 <Zakim> 3. Tracking sheet and signups: https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Accepted_WCAG_2.1_SC [from AWK]
15:00:15 <Zakim> 4. Resolving outstanding comments [from AWK]
15:00:24 <Joshue108> Chair: AWK
15:00:30 <allanj> present+
15:00:49 <Brooks_Newton> Present+ Brooks_Newton
15:00:52 <Detlev> present+ Detlev
15:01:01 <Glenda> Glenda has joined #ag
15:01:34 <shadi> present+
15:02:04 <jasonjgw> present+
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15:02:20 <JakeAbma> present+ JakeAbma
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15:03:13 <laura> present+ Laura
15:03:25 <alastairc> present+ alastairc
15:03:34 <Glenda> present+ Glenda
15:03:55 <Alex> Alex has joined #ag
15:04:02 <Mike_Elledge> Present+ Mike Elledge
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15:04:43 <Detlev> I can do it
15:05:23 <Detlev> scribe: Detlev
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15:06:02 <alastairc> I can do the 26th.
15:07:59 <Detlev> zakim, next item
15:08:01 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Device Sensors and next publication" taken up [from AWK]
15:08:28 <Detlev> AWK: Introductons to new people: Brooks & Roy
15:08:49 <JF> JF has joined #ag
15:08:53 <Detlev> Roy:  new staff at W3C in China
15:08:57 <JF> Present+ JF
15:09:45 <Roy> present+ Roy
15:09:46 <Detlev> Brooks: Introduced himself last week
15:09:54 <Mike_Pluke> present+ Mike_Pluke
15:09:56 <Detlev> Brooks: Joined Thomson Reuters
15:10:10 <Greg> present+ Greg_Lowney
15:10:13 <MelanieP> present+ Melanie_Philipp
15:10:26 <Joshue108> present+ Joshue108
15:10:38 <Detlev> AWK: CfC device sensors still going for 49 mins
15:11:00 <bruce_bailey> bruce_bailey has joined #ag
15:11:10 <bruce_bailey> present+ bruce-bailey
15:11:26 <Detlev> AWK: Deadline extended due to public holidays - so far one objection
15:11:45 <steverep> q+ My response was not an objection
15:11:58 <david-macdonald> david-macdonald has joined #ag
15:12:12 <Detlev> ...went through prior CfC and was rejected - now attempt to find new consensus, revisit it soon
15:12:36 <Detlev> ...concern in editors' note that there is concern about scope
15:12:37 <AWK> https://rawgit.com/w3c/wcag21/device-sensors_ISSUE-67/guidelines/sc/21/device-sensors.html
15:12:39 <david-macdonald> present+ david-macdonald
15:12:47 <AWK> ack s
15:13:18 <Detlev> steverep: Does not count his response as objection - more a question
15:13:25 <Detlev> AWK: great
15:14:03 <Detlev> AWK: Be clear in your response to CfC - object using -1 and explain why - make it unambiguous
15:14:37 <Detlev> AWK: after this CfC we will be assembling last PWD prior to TPAC
15:14:57 <Detlev> ..will be looking at additional feedback
15:15:23 <Detlev> ...Michael, any sense of time frame?
15:16:15 <Detlev> MichaelC: should be next week - main blocker after closing CfCs is preparing wider message - draft should go out within next week, or less
15:16:44 <Detlev> AWK: questions?
15:16:51 <Detlev> zakim, next item
15:16:52 <Zakim> agendum 2. "TPAC" taken up [from AWK]
15:17:19 <JF> +1
15:17:20 <KimD> +1 attending
15:17:20 <david-macdonald> +1
15:17:20 <Glenda> +1
15:17:21 <MichaelC> +1
15:17:22 <alastairc> +1
15:17:22 <Roy> +1
15:17:22 <shadi> +1
15:17:26 <Detlev> AWK: If you are going to TPAC put in a +1
15:17:27 <Brooks_Newton> +1
15:17:27 <Greg> -1
15:17:28 <bruce_bailey> tpac:  +1
15:17:29 <Detlev> -1
15:17:29 <Makoto> +1
15:17:30 <Joshue108> -1
15:17:30 <allanj> -1
15:17:31 <laura> 0
15:17:31 <JakeAbma> -1
15:17:33 <Alex> +1 but only first 2 days
15:17:33 <Mike_Pluke> +1
15:17:40 <jasonjgw> +1
15:17:45 <Mike_Pluke> Mpluke -1
15:17:55 <MelanieP> -1
15:18:06 <AWK> +1
15:18:14 <Detlev> AWK: 15+ people definitely attending
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15:18:32 <gowerm> present+ MikeGower
15:18:33 <MichaelC> q+
15:18:34 <Detlev> ..people can also attend remotely (but that is challenging)
15:19:05 <Mike_Elledge> -1
15:19:05 <Detlev> AWK: By that time we should have comments at hand and more clarity what needs to be discussed / changed
15:20:09 <Detlev> ...working through comments and issues with SCs, Techniques etc - agenda not yet fixed
15:20:12 <david-macdonald> q+
15:20:15 <david-macdonald> q+
15:20:17 <AWK> ack mic
15:20:25 <Detlev> ...does the group have any particular expectations what should be done?
15:20:34 <MichaelC> https://www.w3.org/2017/11/TPAC/
15:20:46 <Detlev> MichaelC: If you intend to go please register at the TPAC page
15:21:08 <Detlev> AWC: Get a hotel room if you haven't got one yet
15:21:09 <AWK> ack dav
15:21:38 <Detlev> David: Would like mergers or associating new SCs with existing ones
15:21:44 <AWK> s/AWC:/AWK:
15:22:34 <Detlev> AWK: so you want to figure out which of the new SCs are candidates tfor mergers, form strategy?
15:22:38 <Detlev> David: yes
15:23:03 <MichaelC> -> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Meetings/TPAC_2017 AG WG TPAC meeting page
15:23:35 <Detlev> AWK: Big issue to address with WCAG 2.1 - [what is modified / merged and what are new SC]
15:24:27 <Detlev> David: third possibility: changing requirements without reducing requirements of 2.0 (?)
15:25:33 <Detlev> David: We should discuss whether we can change existing SCs without changing the requirements of WCAG 2.0 SCs
15:26:34 <Detlev> AWK: Some things might be straightforward - e.g. set new contrast criteria (hypothetical example)
15:26:54 <Detlev> David: another example: focus visible with a requirement for the amount of contrast
15:27:15 <Detlev> AWK: more comments?
15:27:35 <Detlev> ...Nov 6 and 7 will be days for WG meetings
15:28:11 <Detlev> AWK: Recommends staying around longer, other interesting stuff
15:28:12 <Joshue108> q?
15:28:19 <Detlev> zakim, next item
15:28:20 <Zakim> agendum 4. "Resolving outstanding comments" taken up [from AWK]
15:29:26 <Detlev> AWK: outstanding comments 188 open issues - often comments about first PWD - have looked at many of them already, many have been overcome by events.
15:29:51 <Detlev> ...some didn't making into the PWD, deferred to 2.2
15:30:14 <Detlev> ...in other cases, changes to SC text have removed the cause for comment
15:30:56 <Detlev> ...how shall we handle that in an initial 'scrub' - would like not doing an individual CfC for each one of them
15:31:17 <Detlev> ...for others that remain we will have a more formal comment process
15:31:40 <Detlev> ...are people OK with that?
15:31:41 <Glenda> +1 to initial scrub on non-controversial done by leads handling directly :)
15:31:49 <Detlev> +1
15:31:49 <AWK> q?
15:31:57 <laura> +1
15:31:58 <allanj> +1
15:32:02 <david-macdonald> +1
15:32:02 <marcjohlic> +1
15:32:04 <steverep> q+ to ask how we want to handle public comments on SC that have changed significantly
15:32:08 <Greg> +1
15:32:12 <Mike_Elledge> +1
15:32:17 <JakeAbma> +1
15:32:58 <Detlev> steverep: some of the comments on a couple of SCs like hover/focus do no longer match - shall we ask them to rephrase comment?
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15:34:09 <Detlev> AWK: When nature of comment does not apply anymore due to changes we can reply "thanks for comment, things have changed, your concern has been handled or no longer applies", then point to latest version and close comment
15:35:00 <Detlev> AWK: It will be helpful to start afresh - close it and point to new version
15:35:18 <Detlev> AWK: question?
15:35:58 <Kathy> present+ Kathy
15:36:11 <Detlev> AWK: intention is to go through comments, have a set that will be retained, requires research for defining responses
15:36:30 <Detlev> ...then also addressing Understanding docs
15:36:42 <Glenda> zakim make minutes
15:36:59 <Detlev> zakim, next item
15:36:59 <Zakim> I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, Detlev
15:37:04 <Detlev> q?
15:37:10 <AWK> ack s
15:37:10 <Zakim> steverep, you wanted to ask how we want to handle public comments on SC that have changed significantly
15:37:17 <Detlev> zakim, next item
15:37:18 <Zakim> I do not see any more non-closed or non-skipped agenda items, Detlev
15:37:45 <Detlev> zakim, take up item 3
15:37:45 <Zakim> agendum 3. "Tracking sheet and signups: https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Accepted_WCAG_2.1_SC" taken up [from AWK]
15:38:37 <Detlev> AWK: people should look at the tracking sheet - has the set of accepted 2.1 SCs for next PWD
15:39:44 <Detlev> ...has conformance level, links to edit and view understanding comment, and cells for TF reviews
15:40:15 <Detlev> ...you can indicate in column " 	People working on this (use GitHub user name if possible)" when you want to work on one of them
15:40:16 <david-macdonald> What's the status on "Undo"
15:40:53 <Detlev> AWK: some people are more familiar with writing Understanding stuff rather than Techniques
15:41:19 <Detlev> AWK: Regarding Undo, decision was made on WF call that no consensus was reached
15:41:30 <Kathy> q+
15:42:07 <AWK> ack kathy
15:42:18 <Detlev> AWK: Talk to you TF facilitators when you want to be involved - in some cases content from Github has be broufght over already
15:42:59 <Detlev> Kathy: Do we need to work on the new guideline 2.5.X as well?
15:43:20 <Joshue108> q?
15:43:29 <Detlev> AWK: There is understanding content on the Guideline level
15:43:40 <Detlev> MichaelC: confirms that
15:43:59 <MichaelC> q+
15:43:59 <Detlev> AWK: Will be high level - will set up branches for that
15:44:17 <AWK> ack mi
15:44:19 <Detlev> AWK: there is also Understanding text for conformance requirements
15:44:21 <Glenda> RSAgent, make logs public
15:44:54 <Glenda> rrsagent, make minutes
15:44:54 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/09/05-ag-minutes.html Glenda
15:45:01 <Detlev> MichaelC: Hasn't set up branch because it was unclear whether new guideline would be kept
15:45:12 <Detlev> Kathy; That applies to esp. 2.7 Speech
15:45:45 <Detlev> Michael: Hesitant to set up new branches before decision has been made
15:45:46 <MichaelC> ack me
15:46:20 <Greg> Sorry, must leave early.
15:46:34 <Detlev> AWK: Guideline 2.7 doubts - the SC names (like Accessible name) have changed, it no longer exclusively fits under speech
15:46:58 <Detlev> Kathy: explains shift of SC focus, could fit elsewhere
15:47:46 <Detlev> AWK: assumption is that we need a CfC to move SC "Accesssible name" out of... to somewhere else
15:48:16 <david-macdonald> 2.7.1
15:48:25 <Detlev> AWK: could be put under Principle 4 Operable together with name role value
15:48:31 <david-macdonald> +1
15:48:58 <AWK> q?
15:49:01 <Detlev> AWK: there may be reasons to put it somewhere else as well - we need to find consensus
15:49:20 <gowerm> q+
15:49:21 <Detlev> AWK: any other questions?
15:49:47 <Detlev> gowerm: Happy to be told where to put in effort
15:51:05 <alastairc> q+
15:51:53 <Detlev> AWK: First pass is being done by the task forces - initial draft of Understanding text was part of the initial SC proposal - in some cases it is still close, in others it is wildly off because SC text changed substantially - so the task forces should go through SCs and check if Understanding text is still appropriate
15:52:29 <AWK> ack gower
15:52:35 <AWK> ack ala
15:53:11 <Detlev> alastairc: How are we going to tackle version control - if one works on th etext, should someone else create a fork wit ha merge request or how else should we work?
15:53:29 <Detlev> AWK: would prepare creation of a fork that could be merged (or not)
15:53:49 <MichaelC> q+
15:53:52 <Detlev> ...someone else might work differently (email comms)
15:53:59 <alastairc> So basically: contact the person assigned and sort out with them...?
15:54:13 <Detlev> ...Up to individuals to work out best way to co-operate
15:54:40 <Detlev> ...once things get back from TFs all work will be done in github
15:54:49 <AWK> ack mi
15:54:52 <Detlev> ...COGA will do work in google docs
15:55:45 <Detlev> MichaelC: People working on particuar branch decide how to do it - if you create a new branch name it clearl y(your name in it) and delete it if it is no longer needed
15:56:13 <AWK> q?
15:56:18 <Detlev> AWK: question?
15:56:37 <AWK> agenda?
15:57:00 <steverep> 30 minutes to fix device sensors? :)
15:57:17 <Detlev> AWK: agenda is covered - any other business you want to discuss?
15:57:27 <Detlev> David: decide about device sensors?
15:57:53 <Detlev> David: only objection has been qualified (i.e. it is no objection)
15:58:14 <Detlev> AWK: looks like SC Device sensors would be passing without objections - one min left
15:58:41 <david-macdonald> q+
15:58:50 <AWK> ack da
15:58:50 <Detlev> ...we can talk about it - but may not be the best use of time right now
15:59:31 <AWK> https://github.com/w3c/wcag21/issues/67#issuecomment-325716721
15:59:35 <jasonjgw> q+
15:59:36 <Detlev> David: would prefer to work out with the language (see link above)
16:00:23 <Detlev> AWK: no friendly amendments right now - some responses lukewarm, but will go through as accepted
16:00:55 <Detlev> David: thinks amended language is cleare and will create less pushback
16:00:59 <MichaelC> q+
16:01:04 <steverep> +1 to David, obviously
16:01:50 <Detlev> AWK: concern that Steve's, Mark's, Jason's are also ou there - we do not have the basis for a new unified proposal
16:02:17 <Detlev> David: We can reach out to them to find a consensual version
16:03:36 <MichaelC> ack me
16:03:41 <AWK> ack jason
16:03:41 <Detlev> MichaelC: process remark: Change to wording will require new consenus process which would take some days which delays publication and review process - the point of the next two months is to do the tweaking - recommends to go with current consensus, then clean up after publication
16:04:09 <steverep> q+ Fine with not delaying and process, but we have 20 minutes
16:04:25 <Detlev> Jason: Don't delay publication for changes - we need a process to collect and address comments
16:04:52 <Detlev> ..very complex, will keep us busy til Candidate Recommendation
16:05:02 <steverep> q-
16:05:11 <Detlev> MichaelC: Hole to have more suggestions next Tuesday
16:05:20 <Joshue108> s/Hole/Hope
16:05:38 <Detlev> AWK: any other items?
16:05:59 <Detlev> :)
16:06:02 <Mike_Elledge> bye all!
16:06:24 <Detlev> rrsagent, make minutes
16:06:24 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/09/05-ag-minutes.html Detlev
16:06:35 <marcjohlic> present+ marcjohlic
16:06:45 <Makoto> present+ Makoto
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