14:00:40 RRSAgent has joined #tt 14:00:40 logging to http://www.w3.org/2017/08/31-tt-irc 14:00:42 RRSAgent, make logs public 14:00:42 Zakim has joined #tt 14:00:44 Meeting: Timed Text Working Group Teleconference 14:00:44 Date: 31 August 2017 14:02:00 tmichel has joined #tt 14:02:27 Present: Pierre, Nigel 14:02:30 Regrets: Andreas 14:02:32 Chair: Nigel 14:02:34 scribe: nigel 14:03:04 Present+ Glenn 14:03:49 Present+ Thierry 14:04:38 Topic: This meeting 14:06:27 Nigel: For today we have TPAC, TTML2, IMSC. Anything else, or anything specific to cover? 14:06:40 Thierry: Nothing to report on WebVTT - the review is ongoing until Sep 22. 14:07:36 Glenn: There may be a couple of TTML2 PRs to look at. I merged Nigel's correction on the 14:07:49 .. HDR appendix, and one or two others to cover in that part of the agenda. 14:08:32 Nigel: Okay if there's nothing else let's get going... 14:08:41 Topic: TPAC 2017 Advanced Planning 14:08:51 Nigel: We need to think about the agenda points we wish to cover. 14:10:18 -> https://www.w3.org/wiki/TimedText/tpac2017 TTWG TPAC 2017 Wiki page 14:10:43 pal has joined #tt 14:11:11 Nigel: I think we plan to talk about TTML2 CR, IMSC 2 requirements, IMSC 1.0.1 14:11:24 Pierre: +1 to finalising IMSC 2 requirements 14:12:01 Nigel: It would be good for everyone attending to add their names - only 3 of us on there now. 14:12:08 Glenn: I plan to attend. 14:12:32 Nigel: I don't know if we will need time for WebVTT but I guess there may well be. 14:12:44 Thierry: I think we should plan at least a couple of hours, because by that time we will 14:12:54 .. have ended all the comments and the responses to the comments, so it will be time 14:13:13 .. either to request a transition to CR or something close to it. 14:13:28 Nigel: Do you think we will have agreed all the dispositions for the current review by then? 14:13:46 Thierry: So far there have been no comments. We're still working on finalising the dispositions 14:13:59 .. from the first review. It's hard to tell right now, even what the current status of the first 14:14:01 .. review is. 14:14:43 Nigel: Ok. For TTML2 that should be about dispositions to comments also, and closing 14:14:46 .. issues before moving to CR. 14:16:37 Nigel: For TTML2 and CSS style attribute/property value alignment we need some use cases 14:16:50 .. which I'm hoping for input from Netflix on. 14:17:04 Pierre: I'm expecting something also by end of September from Netflix for IMSC 2 requirements 14:22:48 .. which could well be useful for TTML2 / CSS also. 14:23:14 Pierre: How receptive are the CSS folk to this? 14:23:36 Nigel: It's hard for me to assess. Maybe with use cases and expected usage data that 14:23:41 .. could be more encouraging. 14:23:52 Glenn: My sense is that if there's a reason to believe that features will be used more widely 14:24:48 .. then that would encourage browser makers to go ahead and implement, especially 14:25:03 .. if there are some content providers asking for it. Some more theoretical people may 14:25:22 .. approve putting features in the specs but that doesn't mean that the browsers will 14:25:37 .. implement them, especially if they get the impression that they're only for TTML2 support. 14:25:52 .. Some of the issues would be more interesting to them, such as driving out inconsistent 14:26:03 .. behaviour like on line breaks and white space. 14:27:30 Pierre: The lack of outline support is an easy one to push in the sense that it's used in 14:27:40 .. 100% of DVDs and Blu-Rays. 14:29:18 -> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2017Aug/0012.html Invitation for CSS WG to attend TTWG at TPAC. 14:29:32 Nigel: I've had no responses to the invitation yet. 14:30:07 Action: nigel Send CSSWG an invitation reminder by 2017-09-07 14:30:10 Created ACTION-504 - Send csswg an invitation reminder by 2017-09-07 [on Nigel Megitt - due 2017-09-07]. 14:31:03 Pierre: Maybe we ought to target specific folk who may have run into some of the issues, 14:31:15 .. like Apple who has been implementing IMSC 1 recently. 14:33:54 Nigel: Given the timing, if we had some documentation to share with CSSWG even before 14:34:16 .. end of September that could be useful. I'm hoping for something from Netflix and I'm 14:34:31 .. also gathering information from a couple of areas within BBC that may well drive needs 14:34:48 .. for, say, Japanese, language requirements. I'm not clear exactly which attribute values 14:34:52 .. need to be supported though. 14:35:33 Glenn: It may be useful to look at, say, ruby overhang, where the JLReqs detail an issue, 14:35:48 .. with some support in existing Japanese subtitle systems, whereas CSS postponed it 14:36:23 .. until, say, Level 4, where only a few folk in the CSSWG understood the issues clearly. 14:38:26 .. One of the issues may be persuading the others about the need to implement it. 14:38:35 .. In the first order we need to persuade ourselves of it. 14:39:08 Nigel: Just to clarify, I'm looking for data points about how, say, BBC, would use the features 14:39:30 .. if we were to move into greenfield territory, and, say, begin providing closed captions 14:39:47 .. in Japanese. For example, would we even use ruby - I just don't know. 14:40:08 Glenn: I'd admit that the values I chose in TTML2 were based on what decisions an 14:40:40 .. implementation would need to make, to expose styling decisions to authors. That's not 14:40:58 .. to say that all users would necessarily want to take every decision tree path. 14:44:03 Nigel: That reminds me also that it would likely be useful input to CSSWG to provide 14:44:07 .. tests. 14:44:14 Glenn: Not only that but also images. 14:44:35 s/tests./tests alongside use cases. 14:45:12 Nigel: Coming back to the agenda, if there are any specific discussion topics for our meeting 14:45:20 .. at TPAC, then let me know please or edit the wiki page. 14:45:38 Topic: TTML2 Horizontal Review. 14:45:47 Nigel: See also the above discussion about the joint meeting with CSS WG at TPAC. 14:46:08 Glenn: My suggestion is to look at the Editor's CR Worklist milestone and click on the "closed" items, of which there are 13. 14:46:19 .. Those are issues I've processed in the last 2 weeks, many of which are HR comments, 14:46:37 .. so I expect the Group needs to approve the disposition of those. 14:47:10 Nigel: Incidentally, you removed some milestones... 14:47:42 Glenn: I reorganised them. 14:47:52 Nigel: I wondered why you didn't just close the milestones, rather than removing them? 14:48:01 Glenn: Yes that would have been a better option, I'll do that next time. 14:48:15 -> https://github.com/w3c/ttml2/issues?q=is%3Aclosed+milestone%3A%22Editor%27s+CR+Work+List%22 13 Closed issues 14:49:10 Topic: ttml2/#406 Add equivalent CSS properties to style attributes 14:49:50 github: https://github.com/w3c/ttml2/issues/406 14:50:42 Glenn: The TAG and CSS feedback was that semantics defined only in terms of XSL-FO 14:50:59 .. where possible; if similar but different semantics are available in CSS properties 14:51:04 .. mention them at least informatively. 14:51:21 .. That's a nice idea, but it's not actionable, so I'm suggesting closing as "works for me" 14:51:39 .. and incorporating this into our philosophy for future consideration. 14:53:22 Nigel: I think that would be unhelpful since we would then lose track of it. As an alternative 14:53:35 .. I would propose creating sub-issues with the specific in and treating this as an 14:53:46 .. umbrella issue, to turn this into something concrete. 14:55:05 Glenn: We could use Change Proposals for this. For previous comments to this for example 14:55:21 .. for TTML1 then we usually said Thank you, we'll do it later, and then closed the issue. 14:55:27 Nigel: And did you do it later? 14:55:30 Glenn: No 14:56:10 Nigel: That's why I don't want to close this - we'll just forget it again. 14:57:04 .. I think the first step is to go through. 14:57:15 Glenn: I can see that this would be useful information for people coming from a different 14:57:29 .. space but it isn't necessary, so it could turn into spec clutter. 14:57:42 .. I could accept this if someone else does the work. 14:58:02 Nigel: I think a lot of the work has already been done in the CSS requirements wiki page. 14:58:23 Glenn: One thing that would be worth noting is "impedance mismatches" but I think they've 14:58:27 .. mostly been identified. 14:58:35 Nigel: In many ways those are the most interesting ones. 14:58:52 Glenn: I agree. It may be most useful to put that in the spec highlighting areas of potential 14:59:06 .. difficulty. I don't know if its best to put that inline or in an appendix. 14:59:20 .. So you want to leave this open until there are actionable tasks? 14:59:21 Nigel: yes. 14:59:30 Glenn: I've assigned it to you Nigel. 14:59:44 Nigel: That's fine, I'll try to progress this as fast as I can. 15:00:47 Topic: ttml2#248 rubyAlign withBase 15:00:54 github: https://github.com/w3c/ttml2/issues/248 15:01:15 Glenn: On this one, no real discussion, but I realised I need to add a note to that i18n can 15:01:37 .. sign off on it, so I should be able to take care of that without any further input. I'll do this 15:01:43 .. unles Dae steps in and does so. 15:02:40 Topic: ttml2#254 Default ruby position may be on the wrong side for tblr (eg. mongolian) 15:02:48 github: https://github.com/w3c/ttml2/issues/254 15:04:26 Glenn: In this case I added a note that reflects the intended disposition. 15:04:37 -> https://w3c.github.io/ttml2/spec/ttml2.html#style-attribute-rubyPosition rubyPosition in current ED 15:05:22 Glenn: The note I added should reflect Richard's request. 15:05:27 Nigel: OK that seems reasonable to me. 15:06:00 SUMMARY: Group ok with this disposition 15:06:19 Topic: ttml2#256 Please provide more illustrations and examples for the ruby sections 15:06:25 github: https://github.com/w3c/ttml2/issues/256 15:07:05 Glenn: Since i18n has closed this on their review tracker I closed this. 15:07:26 Nigel: Seems fine to me. 15:08:05 SUMMARY: Disposition agreed by WG 15:09:00 Glenn: I'll create a label for indicating that the group has agreed the disposition. 15:09:15 Thierry: What would be the label? 15:09:31 Nigel: There are two states to track: 1. Disposition agreed by WG, 2. Disposition accepted by commenter. 15:10:06 Glenn: My intent was to indicate that the WG intent has been agreed. 15:10:28 Topic: ttml2#258 How to space base characters where shiftRuby kicks in for group ruby? 15:10:35 github: https://github.com/w3c/ttml2/issues/258 15:10:58 Glenn: This was a very interesting case that Richard raised, where the JLReq shows a 15:11:10 .. requirement that we didn't implement. Dae told us that the Japanese subtitle companies 15:11:25 .. have never asked for it, and it probably came out of printed material, so on that basis 15:11:38 .. i18n closed this on their tracker. I proposed a possible future direction in case this 15:11:49 .. behaviour is needed, and propose to close this for now. 15:12:37 Nigel: I support the current proposition, to do nothing but indicate how we'd do it in the 15:12:40 .. future if we had to. 15:13:03 SUMMARY: Disposition agreed by WG 15:13:25 Topic: ttml2#261 Should we allow more overhang for Chinese? 15:13:36 github: https://github.com/w3c/ttml2/issues/261 15:14:42 Glenn: i18n closed this issue, thanking us for looking at it. 15:14:46 Nigel: Looks good to me. 15:17:09 SUMMARY: Disposition agreed by WG 15:18:26 Topic: ttml2#263 It should be easier to specify direction for RTL script users 15:18:30 github: https://github.com/w3c/ttml2/issues/263 15:19:10 Nigel: I see that Richard has closed this on the i18n tracker, so I think this is all done. 15:19:56 Glenn: Part of this was education. On May 11 we resolved to take no action and mark as 15:19:59 .. works for me. 15:20:34 SUMMARY: No further action to take (WG already agreed disposition) 15:20:54 Topic: ttml2#269 tts:writingMode example is not helpful 15:21:00 github: https://github.com/w3c/ttml2/issues/269 15:21:58 Nigel: Pierre proposed a fix for this which was merged, and also added it to imsc-tests. 15:22:07 Glenn: We did those updates and i18n closed this in their tracker. 15:22:34 .. We closed this back on May 6 15:22:44 Nigel: Oh yes we probably shouldn't have since it was an HR comment. 15:22:50 SUMMARY: No further action to take (WG already agreed disposition) 15:23:07 Topic: ttml2#270 Can altText have xml:lang? 15:23:12 github: https://github.com/w3c/ttml2/issues/270 15:24:18 Nigel: We did this, and Addison said he was satisfied. 15:24:26 Glenn: And i18n closed this on their tracker. 15:24:44 .. I see Nigel closed this issue on April 28. I'm only raising this here because I put it on my 15:24:51 .. milestone to track the fact that we had addressed it. 15:24:56 SUMMARY: No further action to take (WG already agreed disposition) 15:25:14 Topic: ttml2#271 Metadata examples do not include xml:lang (editorial) 15:25:19 github: https://github.com/w3c/ttml2/issues/271 15:26:15 Glenn: I commented that we haven't received further comments, and closed it. 15:26:51 Nigel: It's been 3 months, and the proposed change (before commit) got a thumbs-up from Richard. 15:27:15 Glenn: i18n disposed of the closely related #270 I suspect they haven't tracked this, otherwise 15:27:19 .. Richard would have said something. 15:28:08 SUMMARY: Group assumes there is no further comment on this, and the disposition is agreed. 15:29:59 Topic: ttml2#397 Error in HLG HDR appendix step 8 15:30:12 github: https://github.com/w3c/ttml2/issues/397 15:30:29 Glenn: I merged #398 without any changes except to remove the HTML generated version. 15:30:39 Nigel: Thank you, I always include that for easier previewing. 15:31:10 Topic: ttml2#401 animate attribute element list omits audio 15:31:15 github: https://github.com/w3c/ttml2/issues/401 15:31:23 Glenn: I made the fix for this, just an editorial one. 15:31:27 Nigel: Thank you. 15:31:52 github-bot, end topic 15:32:16 Glenn: We've now discussed all the issue I worked on, thank you! 15:34:50 Topic: Meeting close 15:35:14 Nigel: I'm doubtful for next week but will send an agenda regardless. 15:35:31 Glenn: Just to note that henceforth I will be available on Thursday mornings so unless I 15:35:54 .. send a regret I have no outstanding tentative regrets. 15:36:19 Nigel: Thanks all! [adjourn meeting] 15:36:33 rrsagent, make minutes 15:36:33 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/08/31-tt-minutes.html nigel 15:38:59 s|ttml2/#406|ttml2#406 15:41:25 rrsagent, make minutes 15:41:25 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/08/31-tt-minutes.html nigel 15:42:44 nigel has joined #tt 15:43:08 scribeOptions: -final -noEmbedDiagnostics 15:43:10 rrsagent, make minutes 15:43:10 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/08/31-tt-minutes.html nigel 16:32:32 Zakim has left #tt