13:58:28 RRSAgent has joined #tt 13:58:28 logging to http://www.w3.org/2017/08/10-tt-irc 13:58:30 RRSAgent, make logs public 13:58:30 Zakim has joined #tt 13:58:32 Zakim, this will be TTML 13:58:32 ok, trackbot 13:58:33 Meeting: Timed Text Working Group Teleconference 13:58:33 Date: 10 August 2017 13:58:51 scribe: nigel 13:58:55 Present: Nigel 13:58:59 Chair: Nigel 14:02:01 Present+ Andreas 14:03:18 Present+ Pierre 14:04:54 Present+ Thierry 14:05:47 Topic: This meeting 14:06:16 Nigel: I've scheduled 1 hour for today. On our agenda we have TTML2 Horizontal Review, 14:07:14 .. IMSC (just tests I think), WebVTT. Anything other business, or other topics to cover? 14:07:20 group: [silence] 14:08:00 Nigel: I won't be available for the next 2 weeks - anyone want to Chair? 14:08:22 Thierry: I'm out not next week but the following week. 14:08:32 .. (the 24th) 14:08:57 Nigel: OK so let's cancel our meetings on 17th and 24th August. 14:09:10 Topic: TTML2 Horizontal Review 14:09:18 action-497? 14:09:18 action-497 -- Nigel Megitt to Invite csswg to joint meeting at tpac 2017, with list of topics. -- due 2017-06-15 -- PENDINGREVIEW 14:09:18 http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/497 14:09:37 Nigel: I've done this, and am awaiting any requests for specific timeslots from CSSWG members. 14:09:42 close action-497 14:09:43 Closed action-497. 14:10:16 Nigel: When I met CSSWG remotely on Friday last week one of the requests was that we 14:10:31 .. don't simply provide a set of attributes/features but requirements with use cases so 14:10:44 .. that the CSS WG can understand better what we are trying to achieve, in case they think 14:10:56 .. there is a better way in the context of CSS as a whole to achieve the desired result. 14:11:18 pal has joined #tt 14:11:46 .. I thought that was a reasonable request - they didn't want to feel coerced into 14:11:59 .. implementing every feature exactly as we've done it. 14:12:10 Pierre: Take a simple example - multiRowAlign. How would that go? 14:12:54 atai has joined #tt 14:12:55 .. There are lots of real world uses we can point to so that should be straightforward. 14:13:19 Nigel: Good question. I think we'd describe the desired outcome, and our proposed 14:13:32 .. solution, but also accept that they may decide there's some better way to achieve it. 14:15:02 Pierre: Should we painstakingly catalogue everything and present it as a batch, or develop 14:15:20 .. a working relationship or process starting with one or two examples and see how that goes? 14:15:29 .. I started with multiRowAlign as a low risk one. 14:15:54 .. It was a question to you Nigel if you have thoughts of how we should proceed? 14:17:21 Nigel: My personal view is that there may even be cases where members of the TTWG 14:17:35 .. are not clear about the use cases for all the new features in TTML2, so it would be 14:17:49 .. valuable to us as well as other groups if we could document example use cases for each 14:18:15 .. new feature, especially those that have no CSS equivalent. So I'd be inclined to try to 14:18:21 .. complete the documentation for all those features. 14:18:25 Pierre: I don't disagree. 14:18:56 Nigel: That's a piece of work to do, on top of the existing CSS Requirements wiki. I suspect 14:19:08 .. that without being able to provide that documentation we will see limited responses 14:19:11 .. from CSS WG. 14:20:20 .. A lot of the time with TTML2 the explanation has been that a semantic is present in the 14:20:31 .. LambdaCap format and that therefore there is content that uses it and we need to 14:20:37 .. support those features. 14:20:50 Pierre: That would be a legitimate question to Netflix, about how they selected the 14:21:07 .. features needed in TTML2. I think it'd be great for Netflix to explain that, even in half a 14:21:29 .. page. It would be extremely helpful going forward, and it might even be required to 14:21:38 .. persuade people to vote for or implement the spec. 14:22:03 .. I think Mike has pointed out in the past that having evidence for why a feature is 14:22:12 .. required is a really good idea. I'm thinking additionally of IMSC 2. 14:22:38 Nigel: Agreed - this is something we need to go back to Netflix and Glenn to answer. 14:23:01 Nigel: I also attended the Privacy IG who gave some useful feedback. 14:23:15 .. I raised all the feedback I could recall/find in minutes as TTML2 issues. 14:25:31 .. The CSS issue is not exactly the topic we just discussed, but is about defining the semantics 14:25:42 .. of TTML2 style attributes based on CSS where possible or equivalent. 14:26:13 Nigel: I don't think I've heard or seen any other feedback - Thierry have you heard anything? 14:27:06 Thierry: No, I haven't seen anything else. We asked for feedback from APA (Accessibility), 14:27:32 .. Web Platform, i18n, Media and Entertainment IG. 14:27:44 Nigel: Clearly we have had good feedback from i18n, but nothing from the others. 14:28:21 Thierry: The review ends at end of September, so if there's been nothing by end of August 14:28:24 .. I should ping them again. 14:28:26 Nigel: +1 14:28:45 Pierre: Due to the timescales I think it will be difficult to get good feedback from external 14:28:57 .. groups in the timescale required. My guess is that they will begin looking at the spec 14:29:13 .. in September. They may simply provide their feedback whenever they have it. 14:29:28 .. Our long review period overlaps with a long period of vacation too. 14:29:56 Nigel: Thierry are you suggesting reminding the internal W3C groups only? 14:30:01 Thierry: No I can do all of them. 14:30:17 Pierre: There are industry meetings like IBC in September that will take time away from 14:30:33 .. those groups for review, so maybe remind them in 1st or 2nd week September and 14:30:43 .. accept that the feedback may be a bit later than the deadline. 14:30:53 .. I'm thinking especially about TV and OTT industries. 14:31:49 ACTION: tmichel Send a reminder to groups for TTML2 review by 8th September 14:31:49 Created ACTION-503 - Send a reminder to groups for ttml2 review by 8th september [on Thierry Michel - due 2017-08-17]. 14:32:19 Topic: IMSC 14:33:24 Pierre: Thinking about processing the issues and the next steps on IMSC, we said it could 14:33:36 .. not progress until 13th August, which is soon. I can prepare an ED fixes for the issues, 14:33:42 .. but we still need the implementations to be reported. 14:34:19 Nigel: I will chase internally - I'm not sure why I haven't been able to provide our implementation 14:34:23 .. yet - could be due to holidays. 14:34:46 Pierre: In any case I will address those two issues. 14:35:28 Nigel: My assumption is that we will not publish an editorial fix but will only move to PR 14:35:36 .. with the new features implemented. 14:35:41 Pierre: That matches my assumption. 14:36:18 Nigel: Worth noting for the minutes that you release the imsc tests Pierre, thank you! 14:36:27 -> https://github.com/w3c/imsc-tests/releases/tag/v1.0.0 IMSC Tests v1.0.0 14:36:41 action-500? 14:36:41 action-500 -- Thierry Michel to Create a new repo imsc-vnext-reqs -- due 2017-08-10 -- OPEN 14:36:41 http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/500 14:36:46 Thierry: That's done. 14:37:22 -> https://github.com/w3c/imsc-vnext-reqs IMSC vNext Reqs GitHub repo 14:37:33 Nigel: Thank you for that. 14:37:47 Action-500: Thierry created https://github.com/w3c/imsc-vnext-reqs 14:37:47 Notes added to Action-500 Create a new repo imsc-vnext-reqs. 14:37:50 close action-500 14:37:50 Closed action-500. 14:39:02 Nigel: I just created an issue on this to add it to github-bot, but I can't assign it to myself. 14:39:09 .. What are the permissions on it? 14:39:16 Thierry: I'll check... 14:39:46 Nigel: It looks like it isn't associated with TTWG. 14:41:11 .. I think you need to add it into the Timed Text team: 14:41:14 -> https://github.com/orgs/w3c/teams/timed-text/repositories?utf8=%E2%9C%93&query= 14:43:20 Thierry: OK yes, added and write permissions added to the TTWG team. 14:43:29 Nigel: Thanks, that's fixed, I've assigned it to myself. 14:44:05 Nigel: The next step for that is for Pierre to create a skeleton requirements document in 14:44:06 .. that repo. 14:44:09 Pierre: Yes. 14:45:25 .. My initial goal is to have a first draft by month end. 14:48:10 Topic: WebVTT review feedback 14:48:26 Thierry: I had some actions assigned last week. 14:48:48 Action-501? 14:48:48 Action-501 -- Thierry Michel to Write to david and the cg saying we should publish a new wd with a 6 week review period. -- due 2017-08-10 -- OPEN 14:48:48 http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/501 14:49:06 Thierry: I pinged this to David but I got no response because he was on vacation so I 14:49:23 .. issued a new WD with a 6 week review period, closing on September 22. That's done. 14:49:29 .. Silvia was okay with that. 14:49:47 Action-501: Thierry did this and published a new WD on TR with a 6 week review period. 14:49:47 Notes added to Action-501 Write to david and the cg saying we should publish a new wd with a 6 week review period.. 14:49:51 close action-501 14:49:51 Closed action-501. 14:50:11 Thierry: I also sent a number of emails to W3C groups for Horizontal and Wide Review 14:50:24 .. which are copied on our public-tt reflector. 14:50:34 Action-502? 14:50:34 Action-502 -- Thierry Michel to Explain to david that we need a more consistent disposition of comments for webvtt. -- due 2017-08-10 -- OPEN 14:50:34 http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/502 14:50:46 Thierry: This was about the first review in 2014. We discussed last week that we should 14:50:59 .. have the same procedure as for IMSC and TTML in our group so I've asked David to 14:51:11 .. add the links in the document to emails showing that the commenters are satisfied with 14:51:24 .. the CG resolution. I did not get a response from David but Silvia has begun to work on 14:51:37 .. it and she has provided a number of links. She has also sent emails to the commenters 14:51:41 .. to collect this agreement. 14:52:59 Nigel: I forgot to mention something relevant to this last week, so apologies. I had said to 14:53:14 .. David that we can not go to external commenters to approve a disposition until the 14:53:31 .. CG disposition has been approved by the WG. Otherwise if the WG doesn't agree with 14:53:45 .. the CG then this would put the external commenter in a difficult position. However at 14:54:07 .. this stage there has been reasonable notice to the WG of the dispositions and no 14:54:20 .. further comments have been added so it may be reasonable to take that as tacit approval 14:54:26 .. of the CG dispositions by the WG. 14:54:55 .. Can I check if anyone wants more time to review those CG dispositions? 14:55:04 group: [nobody requests additional time] 14:55:15 Nigel: In that case we should allow it to proceed. 14:55:30 Thierry: That was David's point too - the WG has had 1 month or more so I consider that 14:55:33 .. the WG is satisfied. 14:55:59 .. It is not very common in the W3C for a CG and a WG to work together - it makes things 14:56:04 .. a bit more difficult. 14:56:18 .. This is a good example - we are three parties instead of two. 14:56:35 Pierre: Setting aside the dynamics of the groups, from an IPR perspective it's weird to have 14:57:05 .. all the technical work done elsewhere but the IPR commitment made here. 14:57:19 Nigel: Formally, the main contributors in the CG are members of the WG. It is weird though. 14:57:42 Pierre: Formally we need to track all the contributions to check that the IPR is cleared. 14:57:49 .. Maybe it's not a problem here, but it is awkward. 14:57:53 Nigel: I think David is across that. 14:58:51 .. There was a formal IPR release from the CG back in 2014 I think, and since then David 14:59:06 .. has been tracking it I believe - the small number of contributors may in fact all be members 14:59:13 .. of the WG right now, so this may be ok. 15:00:46 Thierry: I think that closes my actions on this, so I may have more news on David's return 15:00:48 .. from vacation. 15:01:50 Action-502: Thierry sent a message to David and is expecting a response. 15:01:50 Notes added to Action-502 Explain to david that we need a more consistent disposition of comments for webvtt.. 15:03:03 Action-502: Thierry to turn the existing document into something more homogeneous. 15:03:03 Notes added to Action-502 Explain to david that we need a more consistent disposition of comments for webvtt.. 15:04:50 Topic: Meeting close 15:05:01 Nigel: Those are all our agenda topics, so I'll adjourn the meeting. Thanks everyone, 15:05:12 .. next meeting will be 31st August. [adjourns meeting] 15:05:38 rrsagent, make minutes 15:05:38 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/08/10-tt-minutes.html nigel 15:07:03 Regrets: Glenn, Dae, Mike 15:07:48 s/.. new feature/Nigel: new feature 15:08:51 s/you release the imsc tests/you released the IMSC tests 15:10:26 rrsagent, make minutes 15:10:26 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/08/10-tt-minutes.html nigel 15:17:00 mike has joined #tt 15:20:47 ScribeOptions: -final -noEmbedDiagnostics 15:20:48 rrsagent, make minutes 15:20:48 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/08/10-tt-minutes.html nigel 15:31:57 atai has left #tt 16:32:33 Zakim has left #tt