15:20:37 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #ag
15:20:37 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2017/08/10-ag-irc
15:20:39 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
15:20:39 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #ag
15:20:41 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be WAI_WCAG
15:20:41 <Zakim> ok, trackbot
15:20:42 <trackbot> Meeting: Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference
15:20:42 <trackbot> Date: 10 August 2017
15:20:48 <AWK> zakim, who is here?
15:20:48 <Zakim> Present: (no one)
15:20:49 <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, AWK, alastairc, laura, kirkwood, shadi, MichaelC, lisa, allanj, trackbot, yatil-focus, jasonjgw
15:20:51 <AWK> +AWK
15:20:53 <AWK> +AWK
15:20:56 <AWK> zakim, who is here?
15:20:56 <Zakim> Present: AWK
15:20:57 <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, AWK, alastairc, laura, kirkwood, shadi, MichaelC, lisa, allanj, trackbot, yatil-focus, jasonjgw
15:21:02 <AWK> Zakim, agenda?
15:21:02 <Zakim> I see nothing on the agenda
15:21:55 <AWK> agenda+ Popup Visibility - #75 (https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/Final_prelockdown_set/results#xsc11)
15:22:21 <AWK> agenda+ Timeouts - Issue 14 https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/Final_prelockdown_set/results#xSC1
15:22:46 <AWK> agenda+ Personalization - issue 6 https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/Final_prelockdown_set/results#xSC13
15:23:51 <AWK> agenda+ reminders (Fill out survey, "present+" yourself in the meeting, TPAC registration/flight/hotel, find a time to scribe)
15:24:01 <AWK> Zakim, agenda order is 4,1,2,3
15:24:01 <Zakim> ok, AWK
15:25:08 <AWK> regrets+ Detlev, KathyW, Mike_Pluke, EA_Draffan
15:25:21 <chriscm> chriscm has joined #ag
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15:27:09 <interaccess> trackbot, start meeting
15:27:12 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
15:27:15 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be WAI_WCAG
15:27:15 <trackbot> Meeting: Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference
15:27:15 <trackbot> Date: 10 August 2017
15:27:16 <Zakim> ok, trackbot
15:27:34 <AWK> Chair: Joshue
15:27:41 <AWK> agenda?
15:28:15 <AllanJ_> AllanJ_ has joined #ag
15:29:05 <KimD> KimD has joined #ag
15:29:21 <KimD> Present+ KimD
15:29:52 <scott> scott has joined #ag
15:31:14 <alastairc> present+ alastairc
15:31:40 <jasonjgw> present+
15:32:01 <chriscm> present+
15:32:20 <Joshue108> present+ Joshue108
15:32:54 <scott> present+
15:33:07 <david-macdonald> david-macdonald has joined #ag
15:33:27 <AWK> +AWK
15:33:35 <JF> JF has joined #AG
15:33:45 <JF> Present+ JF
15:33:50 <Pietro> Pietro has joined #ag
15:34:25 <Rachael> Rachael has joined #ag
15:34:31 <Rachael> present+ Rachael
15:34:37 <Pietro> Present+
15:34:38 <Alex> Alex has joined #ag
15:34:55 <Alex> scribe: Alex
15:35:08 <AWK> Scribe: Alex
15:35:39 <shadi> present+
15:36:03 <scott> present+
15:37:11 <Alex> zakim, take up item 1
15:37:11 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Popup Visibility - #75 (https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/Final_prelockdown_set/results#xsc11)" taken up [from AWK]
15:37:25 <Joshue108> zakim, agenda?
15:37:25 <Zakim> I see 4 items remaining on the agenda:
15:37:26 <Zakim> 4. reminders (Fill out survey, "present+" yourself in the meeting, TPAC registration/flight/hotel, find a time to scribe) [from AWK]
15:37:26 <Zakim> 1. Popup Visibility - #75 (https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/Final_prelockdown_set/results#xsc11) [from AWK]
15:37:26 <Zakim> 2. Timeouts - Issue 14 https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/Final_prelockdown_set/results#xSC1 [from AWK]
15:37:26 <Zakim> 3. Personalization - issue 6 https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/Final_prelockdown_set/results#xSC13 [from AWK]
15:37:30 <david-macdonald> present+ David-MacDonald
15:38:26 <Alex> awk please go through the entire survey
15:38:49 <laura> present+ Laura
15:38:50 <lisa> present+
15:38:53 <Alex> awk please use present + at meeting
15:39:06 <AWK> TPAC 6-10 NOVEMBER 2017
15:39:17 <AWK> https://www.w3.org/2017/11/TPAC/
15:39:18 <Alex> awk please RSVP for TPAC
15:39:41 <Alex> awk make your hotel booking sooner rather than later
15:39:44 <Glenda> Glenda has joined #ag
15:39:47 <AWK> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Scribe_List
15:40:03 <Alex> awk please sign up for scribing at TPAC
15:40:11 <Alex> zakim, take up item 3
15:40:11 <Zakim> agendum 3. "Personalization - issue 6 https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/Final_prelockdown_set/results#xSC13" taken up [from AWK]
15:41:09 <lisa> q+
15:41:13 <JF> Q+
15:42:19 <Alex> lisa Michael's issues that can be resolve
15:43:02 <AWK> ack li
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15:43:36 <Alex> lisa let's look at AA first
15:43:59 <Alex> lisa hope Alex will be ok if he sees the technique
15:44:31 <Alex> josh what do you mean by convention?
15:45:26 <Alex> lisa button has to have a name that tells when the button does
15:45:37 <Joshue108> q?
15:45:45 <Alex> lisa will help autofill
15:47:11 <Joshue108> zakim, ping me in 20 minutes
15:47:11 <Zakim> ok, Joshue108
15:47:25 <Alex> lisa let's go over the conditional approval comments first
15:47:37 <Joshue108> ack jf
15:47:42 <lisa> ack l
15:48:12 <alastairc> The 2 objections were from MichaelG and Alex, both to do with including a schema/listing with the SC.
15:48:42 <Alex> jf author is supposed to use a fixed taxonomy
15:49:46 <Alex> jf you can use many different ways to meet the AA
15:50:06 <Alex> jf fixed taxonomy is aimed for AAA
15:51:18 <Alex> josh most comments are concerned about binding nature. A use case would be helpful.
15:52:50 <Alex> jason this is more about question for the working group. concern about internationalization
15:53:07 <kirkwood> present+
15:53:11 <Alex> jason, would this work for AT?
15:53:15 <JF> Q+ to address Jason's question
15:53:31 <lisa> q+
15:53:31 <Joshue108> thanks for that Alastair.
15:54:38 <Alex> jason seems more sensible to work on autocomplete
15:55:08 <Joshue108> ack jf
15:55:08 <Zakim> JF, you wanted to address Jason's question
15:55:41 <Alex> JF having author provide machine readable lookup table is optimal
15:56:05 <Alex> JF but that is for AAA for now, because tech is not ready
15:56:34 <jasonjgw> q+
15:56:37 <Alex> JF use of ARIA is the easiest way to get there
15:57:14 <Alex> JF since we don't have it, let's get some human readable way to help at AA
15:58:06 <Joshue108> ack lisa
15:58:07 <Alex> josh Mike and Alex have concerns
15:59:23 <Alex> lisa tried to harmonize and achieve internationalization
15:59:39 <alastairc> I sent some examples  which could turn into techniques to the COGA list: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-cognitive-a11y-tf/2017Aug/0010.html
15:59:50 <JF> Common Concept: (First Name)
16:00:00 <JF> Technique(s) for AA: (using @title) <input type="text" title="ספק את שמך הפרטי"> (Hebrew Example)
16:00:03 <Alex> lisa we will work on techniques as we go
16:00:10 <JF> (using Microformats) <input type="text" class="fname">
16:00:21 <JF> (using COGA Semantics) <input type="text" coga-field="name">
16:00:38 <JF> of those 3, only the second and third would be sufficient for AAA
16:00:51 <Alex> lisa let's put it in draft to see how it works for different language
16:02:11 <Alex> alastair internationalization is an issue
16:02:32 <alastairc> s/alastair internationalization is an issue/alastair internationalization is an issue for the descriptions, not the tokens
16:03:47 <Alex> jf we are introduce are things to look at
16:04:43 <Joshue108> AL: I'll have to see the techniques.
16:05:12 <david-macdonald> q+
16:05:30 <Joshue108> ack jas
16:05:36 <lisa> example using autocorrect  for Postal Code: <input name=bp autocomplete="section-blue shipping postal-code">
16:05:39 <Alex> josh let me take the temperature
16:06:09 <Alex> jason i partly agree with john
16:07:11 <Alex> jason the AA SC may present issues with internationalization
16:07:12 <Zakim> Joshue108, you asked to be pinged at this time
16:07:19 <lisa> jason you are arguing over techneuqes
16:07:20 <JF> Q+
16:07:28 <Alex> jason prefer to hold off AA and work on the AAA
16:08:00 <lisa> auto corect is one example of what is availible now
16:08:06 <Alex> jason not sure this is ready for 2.1
16:08:12 <lisa> widely availible
16:08:34 <Joshue108> ack dav
16:08:58 <Alex> david i see jason's concern but also sees the opposite
16:09:13 <Joshue108> ack jf
16:09:28 <Alex> jf we have a chicken and egg problem
16:10:17 <Alex> jf proposing the human readable solution help break the problem
16:10:21 <AWK> q+
16:10:30 <Joshue108> ack awk
16:11:09 <Alex> awk support the idea, but the list is really long
16:11:11 <JF> I agree that the list needs to be trimmed significantly
16:11:19 <lisa> q+
16:11:28 <Alex> awk can you shorten it
16:11:28 <Joshue108> ack lisa
16:11:53 <Alex> lisa only to include things in autocorrect
16:12:06 <alastairc> I think James asked they align, i.e. if there is overlap then use the HTML term.
16:12:30 <Alex> josh i'm hearing support. techniques can be added
16:13:04 <AWK> Before I would agree to this going in the draft I would need to see the editor's note that accompanies it
16:13:13 <Alex> josh i think this is ready
16:13:15 <david-macdonald> BRB I +1 inclusion at AA and AAA with at risk note editor
16:13:16 <JF> Q+
16:13:28 <JF> +1
16:13:31 <Rachael> +1 I am comfortable with this going forwarrd
16:13:34 <Joshue108> ack jf
16:13:39 <kirkwood> +1
16:13:40 <Glenda> +1
16:13:41 <alastairc> +1
16:13:53 <Alex> jf will trying to get things ready
16:14:16 <Joshue108> +1 with editors note - and more focussed list
16:14:24 <KimD> 0 I still have concerns about whether it makes sense to be broadly implemented.
16:14:39 <Alex> awk want to see the editor's note
16:15:19 <Alex> -1 for now
16:15:23 <alastairc> The techniques are important, but the principle that the techniques follow is that it is feasible at AA, so we don't need to specify techniques first.
16:15:58 <laura> +1 with  editor's note
16:16:01 <Alex> josh we have largely positive
16:16:32 <AWK> +1 assuming editor's note is clarified before the end of the CFC
16:16:43 <Alex> -1
16:16:58 <chriscm> +1
16:17:02 <lisa> +1
16:17:10 <Joshue108> Is this related to you wishing to Alex.
16:17:10 <Pietro> +1
16:17:10 <Alex> Alex needs to see techniques
16:17:22 <alastairc> I posted some initial examples, perhaps Alex can look through later?
16:17:36 <lisa> i also posted an example Postal Code: <input name=bp autocomplete="section-blue shipping postal-code">
16:17:42 <Alex> i will look after the call
16:17:49 <Joshue108> thanks Alex
16:17:58 <Alex> michael we can pull thing after cfc
16:18:05 <Alex> michael but we can't add
16:18:14 <chriscm> @Lisa: I think it's really cool that this came together. Good work.
16:18:37 <lisa> thank you Chris, and everyone else who helped
16:19:22 <Alex> michael please comment on CFC for objection
16:20:07 <alastairc> Lisa, would it be a good idea to put the list of terms in a google doc / sheet for group editing?
16:20:07 <Alex> jf will have the note for Tuesday
16:20:45 <chriscm> @JF Marty McFly could! Come on man.
16:21:33 <AWK> RESOLUTION: Accepted as proposed for the AA Personalization item, with an objection from Alex.
16:22:15 <JF> @alastair I'm down with that (google doc spreadsheet)
16:22:28 <Alex> michael we ought to have separate cfc
16:22:51 <Alex> josh thank you
16:23:40 <alastairc> can we separate? I thought the AAA one needed a bit of change.
16:24:08 <alastairc> ok
16:24:16 <Alex> lisa can we edit after august
16:24:21 <Alex> michael yes
16:24:21 <lisa> +1
16:24:52 <Alex> lisa we can remove region
16:25:41 <JF> +1 as well
16:25:45 <Rachael> +1
16:25:46 <Alex> alastair can live with it
16:26:05 <AWK> +1
16:26:16 <Alex> +1 or -1 on AAA going to CFC
16:26:16 <Joshue108> +1
16:26:16 <kirkwood> +1
16:26:22 <Alex> 0
16:26:24 <Pietro> +1
16:26:32 <alastairc> +1
16:26:36 <KimD> 0 same concerns about whether it can be broadly implemented
16:26:48 <Glenda> +1
16:26:59 <laura> +1
16:27:17 <chriscm> +1
16:27:46 <lisa> Thanks all the folks who helped with this
16:27:59 <Alex> RESOLUTION: presonalization AAA accepted
16:29:22 <Alex> awk who is caller 3
16:29:57 <gowerm> gowerm has joined #ag
16:30:00 <gowerm> present+ MikeGower
16:30:09 <Joshue108> zakim, agenda?
16:30:09 <Zakim> I see 4 items remaining on the agenda:
16:30:10 <Zakim> 4. reminders (Fill out survey, "present+" yourself in the meeting, TPAC registration/flight/hotel, find a time to scribe) [from AWK]
16:30:10 <Zakim> 1. Popup Visibility - #75 (https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/Final_prelockdown_set/results#xsc11) [from AWK]
16:30:10 <Zakim> 2. Timeouts - Issue 14 https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/Final_prelockdown_set/results#xSC1 [from AWK]
16:30:10 <Zakim> 3. Personalization - issue 6 https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/Final_prelockdown_set/results#xSC13 [from AWK]
16:30:42 <laura> SCribe: Laura
16:30:51 <AWK> zakim, close item 3
16:30:51 <Zakim> agendum 3, Personalization - issue 6 https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/Final_prelockdown_set/results#xSC13, closed
16:30:53 <AWK> zakim, close item 4
16:30:54 <Zakim> I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
16:30:54 <Zakim> 4. reminders (Fill out survey, "present+" yourself in the meeting, TPAC registration/flight/hotel, find a time to scribe) [from AWK]
16:30:54 <Zakim> agendum 4, reminders (Fill out survey, "present+" yourself in the meeting, TPAC registration/flight/hotel, find a time to scribe), closed
16:30:55 <Zakim> I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
16:30:56 <Zakim> 1. Popup Visibility - #75 (https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/Final_prelockdown_set/results#xsc11) [from AWK]
16:31:15 <laura> Josh: Good discussion on this.
16:31:27 <AWK> q+ to discuss changes
16:31:40 <laura> …Steve has a new wording.
16:32:03 <Joshue108> ack awk
16:32:03 <Zakim> AWK, you wanted to discuss changes
16:32:26 <laura> awk: I think all issues are resolved.
16:32:50 <laura> … the word popup is removed.
16:33:06 <Joshue108> AWK updated Popup Visibility in survey.
16:33:47 <laura> …uses when content apears.
16:34:11 <laura> …triggred by a UI component.
16:36:13 <Joshue108> q?
16:38:21 <Alex> q+
16:38:47 <Joshue108> ack alex
16:41:21 <laura> Visible trigger: Either the additional content does not obscure any essential content within the triggering user interface component, or the additional content can be closed or repositioned by the user.
16:41:45 <laura> ……we don’t spec how.
16:42:04 <laura> alex: agree will most of this.
16:42:19 <laura> …3rd condition unnecessary.
16:42:34 <laura> …3rd condition unnecessary.
16:42:44 <Joshue108> q?
16:42:53 <david-macdonald> q+
16:43:42 <gowerm> q+
16:43:47 <laura> …why wouldn’t 231 apply?
16:43:56 <gowerm> q-
16:44:07 <Glenda> present+ glenda
16:44:12 <Joshue108> ack david
16:44:21 <laura> awk: explains.
16:44:27 <laura> alex: okay.
16:44:34 <Joshue108> q?
16:44:47 <laura> david: I don’t mind the extra reminder.
16:45:13 <laura> josh: do people feel this is ready?
16:45:15 <KimD> q+
16:45:15 <alastairc> +1 I suggested a minor wording change, but happy in principle
16:45:18 <gowerm> q+
16:45:24 <gowerm> +1
16:45:36 <Joshue108> ack kim
16:46:46 <laura> kim: question custom tooltips
16:47:12 <laura> awk: lots of options to dismiss them.
16:47:39 <laura> …shouldn’t be an issue
16:47:59 <laura> kim: thinking about the layers.
16:48:08 <laura> ..should be okay.
16:48:17 <Joshue108> ack gow
16:48:33 <AWK> Need to indicate in the understanding document that activating a button that triggers a tooltip would be a fine way to dismiss the additional content
16:48:37 <laura> mg: understanding docs should mention 321
16:48:49 <alastairc> AWK did you see my most recent suggestion? Starting it "For content that becomes visible"
16:48:49 <Joshue108> q?
16:49:02 <AWK> Need to go into detail about where 2.1.1 / 3.2.1 / and this SC  interact.
16:49:11 <KimD> +1 ready
16:49:12 <laura> josh: hearing no objections.
16:49:15 <gowerm> +1
16:49:15 <david-macdonald> +1
16:49:18 <AWK> +1
16:49:19 <kirkwood> +1
16:49:30 <alastairc> +1
16:49:32 <Alex> +1
16:49:45 <lisa> +1
16:50:02 <laura> awk: steve had some objections. But I think he will be ok.
16:50:30 <laura> laura: +1
16:50:58 <alastairc> I can help you drop another?
16:51:24 <laura> RESOLUTION: Popup Visibility accepted for CFC
16:51:40 <lisa> q+
16:51:50 <laura> Zakim, next item
16:51:50 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Popup Visibility - #75 (https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/Final_prelockdown_set/results#xsc11)" taken up [from AWK]
16:52:19 <laura> TOPIC: Time Outs
16:52:33 <david-macdonald> Chaohai Ding
16:52:43 <AWK> Current SC: Where data can be lost due to timeouts, users are warned at the start of a process about the length of inactivity that generates the timeout, unless the data is preserved for a minimum of 24 hours of user inactivity.
16:52:51 <JF> zakim, take up item 2
16:52:51 <Zakim> agendum 2. "Timeouts - Issue 14 https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/Final_prelockdown_set/results#xSC1" taken up [from AWK]
16:52:54 <lisa> he has not been well unfortunatly so I am helping out\
16:53:04 <laura> https://rawgit.com/w3c/wcag21/timeouts_ISSUE-14/guidelines/sc/21/timeouts.html
16:53:11 <laura> awk: AA
16:53:36 <laura> …Michael Elledge minor edit and wordsmithing
16:54:18 <JF> +1
16:54:19 <laura> MG: for forms time outs may be an issue
16:54:24 <Kim> Kim has joined #ag
16:54:36 <laura> …outside the control of the author.
16:54:51 <laura> … worry about how "user inactivity" is measured.
16:55:14 <laura> …how does an author tell?
16:55:20 <AWK> Mike: Where data can be lost due to user inactivity, users are warned at the start of a process about the length of inactivity that generates the timeout, unless the data is preserved for a minimum of 24 hours of user inactivity.
16:55:41 <laura> …rationale for 20 hours in the current 2.0 spec, that I find it disheartening to talk about extending it even more. Half of that time would be reasonable.
16:55:55 <david-macdonald> q+
16:56:02 <JF> Q+
16:56:03 <AWK> ack lisa
16:56:09 <laura> …24 seems abritrary.
16:57:11 <laura> lisa: it can easily take people longer than 24 hours.
16:57:49 <laura> …people may need to continue the next day.
16:58:16 <laura> …does not require a  calculation.
16:58:45 <AWK> ack david
16:58:48 <laura> …a lot of COGA rationale for this.
16:59:14 <alastairc> inactivity?
16:59:39 <laura> …maybe add the word “Server” to time outs
17:00:30 <laura> AC maybe use inactivity.
17:01:41 <laura> Lisa:  will change to user inactivity.
17:01:58 <laura> awk: should write the note for this one too.
17:02:52 <laura> JF: have some concerns that we haven’t talked about.
17:03:21 <laura> awk: we wil talk ablut this on tuesday.
17:03:33 <AWK> zakim, who is on the phone?
17:03:33 <Zakim> Present: AWK, KimD, alastairc, jasonjgw, chriscm, Joshue108, scott, JF, Rachael, Pietro, shadi, David-MacDonald, Laura, lisa, kirkwood, MikeGower, glenda
17:03:33 <Kim> Present+
17:05:28 <laura> rrsagent, make minutes
17:05:28 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/08/10-ag-minutes.html laura
17:08:22 <laura> s/we wil talk ablut this on tuesday./we will talk about this on tuesday./
17:08:36 <laura> rrsagent, make minutes
17:08:36 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/08/10-ag-minutes.html laura
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