14:45:50 RRSAgent has joined #ag 14:45:50 logging to http://www.w3.org/2017/08/01-ag-irc 14:45:52 RRSAgent, make logs public 14:45:55 Zakim, this will be WAI_WCAG 14:45:55 Meeting: Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference 14:45:55 Date: 01 August 2017 14:45:55 ok, trackbot 14:45:57 zakim, agenda? 14:45:57 I see 1 item remaining on the agenda: 14:45:58 3. Confirm Important Information https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/confirm-impt-info/results [from MichaelC] 14:46:06 zakim, clear agenda 14:46:06 agenda cleared 14:46:29 agenda+ LVTF and MATF SC https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/sc_august2017/ 14:49:25 Detlev_ has left #ag 14:53:39 Detlev has joined #ag 14:54:26 Greg has joined #ag 14:56:26 david-macdonald has joined #ag 14:56:32 present+ 14:56:43 present+ Detlev 14:56:45 chriscm has joined #ag 14:56:52 present+ chriscm 14:58:23 KimD has joined #ag 14:58:59 MelanieP has joined #ag 14:59:13 steverep has joined #ag 14:59:20 present+steverep 14:59:45 Present+ KimD 15:01:18 Alex has joined #ag 15:01:32 marcjohlic has joined #ag 15:02:26 bruce_bailey has joined #ag 15:02:43 present+ bruce-bailey 15:02:46 present+ david-macdonald 15:02:53 present+ 15:03:31 present+ Greg_Lowney 15:03:31 Wilco has joined #ag 15:03:37 kirkwood has joined #AG 15:03:40 present+ Melanie_Philipp 15:04:14 present+ kirkwood 15:04:20 present+ 15:04:31 scribe: Jim 15:04:33 present+ 15:04:36 gowerm has joined #ag 15:04:53 agenda? 15:05:00 present+ 15:05:15 Kathy has joined #ag 15:06:01 present+ MikeGower 15:06:04 Rachael has joined #ag 15:06:11 present+ Kathy 15:06:24 present+ Laura 15:06:40 Present+ Rachael 15:07:20 Mike_Pluke has joined #ag 15:07:47 present+ Mike_Pluke 15:09:07 TOPIC: Update from ACT TF 15:09:13 wilco: creating new examples. more info end of august 15:09:43 ... publishing 2nd draft 15:09:56 zakim, open item 1 15:09:56 agendum 1. "LVTF and MATF SC https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/sc_august2017/" taken up [from interaccess] 15:10:10 Topic: Popup 15:10:24 https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/sc_august2017/results#xlvt 15:10:28 https://github.com/w3c/wcag21/issues/75 15:11:12 joc: SteveR is SC manager 15:11:35 https://rawgit.com/w3c/wcag21/popup-interference_ISSUE-75/guidelines/#popup-interference 15:11:49 SC Text Except where the visual presentation of a popup is controlled by the user agent and is not modified by the author, all of the following are true when a popup is visible: • Trigger: The Popup does not obscure any part of its trigger. • Hover: If the popup is triggered via pointer hover, then the pointer may be moved onto the popup without loss of popup visibility. • Focus: The Popup remains visible while its trigger or any of its components hav[CUT] 15:12:36 Does popup have a formal definition that distinguishes it from a modal? 15:12:44 q? 15:12:48 sr: popups - things that occur on hover or focus. exception is title attribute 15:13:03 thx 15:13:42 q+ to ask if there is a relationship between visible focus SC and this? 15:13:46 q+ 15:13:58 popup (and trigger) definition: https://rawgit.com/w3c/wcag21/popup-interference_ISSUE-75/guidelines/terms/21/popup.html 15:14:51 dmc: ok with new wording for draft. consult UA for more accurate wording 15:14:57 Josh your audio is disintegrating 15:15:39 sr: discusses 'trigger' 15:15:48 q+ 15:15:53 ... trigger in SC will link to def 15:16:04 I am still not clear what trigger is 15:16:04 ack kimD 15:16:13 present+ marcjohlic 15:16:32 q+ to ask if “trigger” can be taken out of definition for pop-up? 15:16:35 kimd: not clear on popup. how is different from modal or slide out. 15:16:45 zakim, ping me in 20 minutes 15:16:45 ok, Joshue108 15:17:19 q+ 15:17:22 sr: become visible on hover or focus. modal - not covered. it is a change of focus. 15:17:37 ack me 15:17:37 Joshue, you wanted to ask if there is a relationship between visible focus SC and this? 15:17:50 sr: if you have to click it, it is not covered by this SC 15:18:07 joc: relation to visible focus? 15:18:48 sr: distinction yes. button changing color is not a popup. 15:18:50 ack me 15:18:52 ack detlev 15:19:56 detlev: concern, def of popup. think modal (ok, cancel). those could cover content. need to make clear that popup is 'transient' on focus or hover. 15:20:05 Is there a better word than popup? 15:20:06 q? 15:20:24 +1 to popover! 15:20:36 sr: some confusion with popup. there is no consistent word. perhaps "popover" 15:20:52 q+ 15:20:57 or just spell out "content revealed by hover of focusing interactive controls" 15:21:11 dmc: popup on hover? 15:21:41 tooltip? 15:21:46 joc: concern with creating new terms. 15:21:51 custom tooltip 15:22:01 ack alex 15:22:15 Alex you are very quiet 15:22:33 AndroUser2 has joined #ag 15:22:40 al: terminology issue. term of art. popup is a window. lots of confusion. need a different term. 15:22:51 q+ Let's do a straight substitution to "popover" 15:23:34 ... what are you trying to say ...'visual presentation controlled by user agent...."\ 15:23:48 *I'm getting a lot of background noise - it's louder than the speakers - is anyone else getting this? 15:23:55 +1 to "reduce" language 15:24:00 I want to say thanks for the work going into addressing this issue. I have never been able to write it up as a requirement. This is getting us very close! 15:24:05 joc: change wording "reduce popup interference" make a positive statement. 15:24:11 ack bruce 15:24:11 bruce_bailey, you wanted to ask if “trigger” can be taken out of definition for pop-up? 15:24:36 q+ 15:24:58 ack gowerm 15:25:03 bb: popup cause lots of problems. glad to see work. concern with definition and definition of "trigger" 15:25:18 q+ 15:25:20 mb: +1 to "reduce interference" 15:25:47 ... if you have to press enter or click on something then doesn't qualify. 15:26:30 ack jason 15:26:34 ... this is intended for authors creating 'non-persistant information' on the screen so they don't interfer with other information 15:26:42 +1 to MG phrasing suggestion 15:27:23 "non-persistent information" is one of the ways we defined what you are talking about. It IS hard to define this, but I think it can be clarified both in definition and in Understanding doc. 15:27:34 ack chris 15:27:34 jw: to get right... need the good definition. need clarity. clearly describe behaviors. otherwise a tight SC 15:27:40 Detlev_ has joined #ag 15:28:07 cm: we will be redefining 'popup' - modal, etc. 15:28:12 marcjohlic_ has joined #ag 15:28:23 +1 to tooltip 15:28:27 Reduce Tooltip Interference? 15:28:41 +1 to “tooltip” definition being cited 15:28:46 ... perhaps 'tooltip'... reads dictionary definition. then intent will be very clear 15:28:47 popover in Bootstrap is not triggered on hover https://www.w3schools.com/bootstrap/bootstrap_popover.asp 15:29:02 q+ 15:29:08 joc: tooltip has lots of baggage. 15:29:31 q+ to ask if use of tooltip etc would also cover MegaMenus? 15:29:33 cm: perhaps, but makes intent CLEAR. intent is paramount 15:29:41 ack alex 15:29:42 I think problem with using “tooltip” is that most people think that means text. 15:29:59 Long textual tool tips can be a problem. 15:30:03 al: what is "visual presentation" add to the SC. 15:30:05 You cannot use the term tooltip *instead of* popup because tooltip is just one example of a a popup. 15:30:12 +1 to Bruce 15:30:24 But I can see why Chris supports the idea... 15:30:28 Tooltips with images seem to be the more problematic case in my experience. 15:30:47 @Greg: I agree with the issues with tooltip, but I think overly specific is better than overly general. 15:31:22 sr: visual presentation is a defined glossary term. info is present to the user. it is about the info on the screen not the code. so title is controlled by the UA. other popups 15:31:34 @chriscm, if you limit the SC to apply only to tooltips, you'll be losing the majority of the benefit to users--all those other examples of transient information won't be covered. 15:32:08 q? 15:32:11 dmc: trying to distinguish or exempt the "title" attribute. 15:32:11 @Greg: We could start with tooltip for clarity and then expand on it, to encourage understanding. 15:32:25 q+ 15:32:25 Title attribute is already exempted as the UI is under the control of the user agent, not the content. 15:32:35 al: will exempting @title, does is scope other things out? 15:33:23 q+ 15:33:27 @chriscm, I'd give tooltip as an example of a popup or non-persistent information or whatever term we use, but not redefine the term tooltip to be more inclusive than its common usage. 15:33:44 al: devs will know know that this language refers to @title. too obscure 15:33:54 @Greg: I could copy and paste that sentence with the word popup... 15:34:02 ack david 15:34:09 sr: need technology independent ways of stating this. 15:34:24 ack josh 15:34:24 Joshue, you wanted to ask if use of tooltip etc would also cover MegaMenus? 15:34:28 dmc: tooltip=title. we want to break association 15:34:28 custom tooltip? 15:35:02 "Custom tooltip" might work?? 15:35:09 ... informative overlay ... 15:35:36 joc: e.g megamenu, trigger and have a huge change of display. this could be very useful. concern with restrictions having 'tooltip' language. 15:35:51 q+ 15:35:57 ... like popup or popover. 15:36:00 Perkins example: https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/low-vision-a11y-tf/wiki/index.php?title=Metadata_On_Hover&oldid=3281#Perkins 15:36:08 dmc: context menu 15:36:39 popover in Bootstrap is not triggered on hover https://www.w3schools.com/bootstrap/bootstrap_popover.asp 15:36:45 Joshue108, you asked to be pinged at this time 15:36:56 sr: happy to do popover instead of popup. not menu. not tooltip - implies being small. concerned with large tooltips. 15:37:10 +1 if this SC can cover mega-menus, but can live without that 15:37:23 What about sites that have a panel that displays help text for whichever control has focus. Most users would not call that a tooltip because it's not popping up, yet I think it should be covered by this SC. 15:37:27 ... megamenus are a problem. 15:37:32 +10 to this covering MegaMenus 15:38:00 refrences in UX: “pop up window” in an information item ususally and a “pop up menu” is an interaction element of the page. never heard of pop over 15:38:05 Reduce Popup Interference 15:38:10 +1 to what SR says about issues and use of “popover” versus “tooltip”. 15:38:14 popover: a light muffin made from a thin batter, which rises to form a hollow shell when baked. 15:38:29 q? 15:38:30 joc: need a suitable term 15:38:35 ack jason 15:38:39 "context hover"?? 15:39:06 Definitions on Stack Exchange https://ux.stackexchange.com/questions/90336/whats-the-difference-between-a-modal-popup-popover-and-lightbox 15:39:36 jw: the definition is pretty clear. associated content is distinct from trigger content. don't understand def quibbling. 15:39:52 +1 to Jason echoing my thoughts on the definition 15:39:56 ... if a different term, still need to read the definition. 15:40:12 q? 15:40:19 My quibble with definition as-is that both the deffinition and SC use “trigger”. It is a bit recursive. 15:40:47 ... whatever UA does author has no control of. may make authors use @title more. 15:42:06 jw: make sure definition picks what SC is covering. make sure it is complete. definition determines conformance. it also defines "trigger" 15:42:11 ack gower 15:42:13 q? 15:42:39 +1 to reduce 15:42:42 +1 to changing title to include "Reduce" 15:42:43 +1 to putting 'Reduce'.. 15:42:46 Reduce Popup Interference 15:42:48 mg: 1. add reduce to short name? any issues 15:43:01 dmc: try to keep them short 15:43:11 +1 to more meaningful title 15:43:11 -1 15:43:13 +1 15:43:14 marcjohlic_ has joined #ag 15:43:14 -1 15:43:18 joc: add Reduce to short name 15:43:20 -1, change interference instead 15:43:36 +1 to reduce or even eliminate 15:43:40 +1 15:43:46 +1 Reduce Popup Interference 15:43:51 I support SC titles being imperative statements where possible, rather than just noun phrases 15:43:53 -1 15:43:56 +1 15:43:58 +1 15:44:01 joc: need a verb to qualify the short name 15:44:05 +1 15:44:15 +1 15:44:19 +1 15:44:26 mg: seems reduce works 15:45:41 .... suggest we get this out there. Are we missing anything...other ramification. this mitigates bad design decisions on "non-persistant" information 15:46:14 +1 15:46:15 +1 ready for draft with editor's note 15:46:18 joc: good feed back on adding REduce 15:46:19 -1 15:46:20 q+ to paste in conditions 15:46:20 +1 to add 15:46:21 +1 15:46:27 joc: add to draft 15:46:28 +1 15:46:29 +1 15:46:30 +1 that SC is ready for draft 15:46:31 +1 15:46:31 +1 for draft with editor's note, as it does still need some work 15:46:33 ack steve 15:46:34 +1 15:46:35 +1 but we need to adjust the definitions and language 15:47:23 sr: putting reduce makes it too long. change interference. seems a non issue when related to other SC 15:47:29 ack bruce 15:47:29 bruce_bailey, you wanted to paste in conditions 15:47:41 The [content which becomes visible only when associated content, called the trigger, gains focus or pointer hover] does not obscure any part of its trigger. 15:47:52 If the [content which becomes visible only when associated content, called the trigger, gains focus or pointer hover] is triggered via pointer hover, then the pointer may be moved onto the popup without loss of popup visibility. 15:47:56 bb: don't think there is a definition recursion problem 15:48:02 The [content which becomes visible only when associated content, called the trigger, gains focus or pointer hover] remains visible while its trigger or any of its components have focus, unless the user takes an explicit action to close the popup. 15:48:09 ... think it works as is. good job. 15:48:34 joc: any objections to putting in draft? 15:49:08 al: difference between this a previous question? 15:49:59 Will concerns that have not been addressed be tracked by the SC manager even after it goes out for wider review, or will we be expected to re-submit them later? 15:50:11 al: the text needs work. I object to putting in draft 15:50:15 What aspects of the text needs work? 15:50:21 marcjohlic_ has joined #ag 15:50:40 al: see previous statements 15:51:49 al: concern "control by user agent, not modified by the author" no a suitable term. 15:52:22 dmc: what are other things besides @title are out. 15:52:27 q+ 15:52:51 q+ to reply to Alex’s three Qs from survey 15:53:00 ... if the author does something the SC applies, if only UA then it exempted. 15:53:15 al: editors note: This needs work 15:53:22 +0 15:53:45 I don't object to the goal of this SC, but I do think the language is muddy 15:53:54 joc: ed note to tease out more info. 15:54:05 Suggested Editor's note: "This SC is intended to cover authoring responsibilities beyond the behaviour of the title attribute, which is controlled by the user agent" 15:54:31 al: problem is unintended consequences. must scope properly. 15:54:45 dmc: want to eliminate @title 15:55:24 ack jason 15:55:26 q? 15:55:30 bb: not including @title. even though it causes lots of problems. 15:56:00 +1 to Jason 15:56:08 Original aim was to cover the title attribute. 15:56:09 jw: do you want to allow exception that breaks lots of things. 15:56:14 If we want to limit the size of title strings, that should be a separate SC, as it's not *directly* related to behaviors as everything else about this SC seems to be. 15:56:52 sr: logic... then you go through all WCAG and remove lots of exceptions. these are not under author control 15:57:10 jw: why exceptions for UA behavior. 15:57:20 q+ 15:57:30 ack bruce 15:57:30 bruce_bailey, you wanted to reply to Alex’s three Qs from survey 15:58:03 Josh can't you dial in again - your audio is still breaking up 15:58:14 Editors note: The WG is looking for input on how we may word the section "controled by user agent, not modified by the author". Authors don't control native behaviour of the "title" attribute and we are exempting it. 15:58:23 bb: still good enough to go in the draft. disappointed that doesn't cover @title 15:58:26 I can't WebEx wont let me in :-( 15:59:09 ... loss of visibility of trigger element. move hover causes disappear of popup. 15:59:40 .... SC as drafted is fine. need a different word "popup" 15:59:43 ack laura 16:00:02 ... not happy about not covering @title 16:00:06 https://jsfiddle.net/obsqynyp/4/ 16:00:25 lc: have techniques to cover title attrib. need more input 16:00:42 this conversation indicates that we are not clear about what we are saying here 16:01:07 joc: seems most want this in draft. still some issues 16:01:18 I don't understand you Josh - can't someone else take over? 16:01:20 +1 to Alex's comment. 16:01:21 ... need work on use cases. 16:01:31 Marla Runyan's Positioning Tooltips Above Triggers...and Keyboard Accessible Demos: https://jsfiddle.net/obsqynyp/4/ 16:01:50 dmc: add ed note. and put in draft 16:02:09 @David-Macdonald, I think there are a lot more concerns than the one you listed in your draft editor's note. I would make it a broader disclaimer. 16:02:28 Editors note: The WG is looking for input on how we may word the section "controled by user agent, not modified by the author". We are also looking for input on whether to explicity exclude the title attribute." 16:02:34 Editors note: The WG is looking for input on how we may word the section "controlled by user agent, not modified by the author". Authors don't control native behaviour of the "title" attribute and we are exempting it. 16:02:40 cm: Alex comment. confusions will be amplified. agree we need this SC. but we seem not clear . 16:02:45 Proposal: Accept as is with an editor's note stating "The working group is considering using a different term than popup to improve understanding, but feel the glossary definition is clear. The group is also open to alternative wording to scope the exception. 16:03:25 joc: leave open. Alex work with Steve on wording. hopefully we get this in. 16:03:31 sure 16:03:46 joc: alex will work with steve on wording 16:03:52 Sorry this does not work with a chair that is inaudible 16:04:34 RESOLUTION: Leave open. Alex to work with Steve on new wording. 16:04:35 ok 16:05:02 Topic: plain language 16:05:16 topic: pointer gestures 16:05:24 https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/sc_august2017/results#xmatf1 16:05:27 zakim, next item 16:05:27 I do not see any more non-closed or non-skipped agenda items, bruce_bailey 16:05:44 q> 16:05:45 q? 16:06:14 https://github.com/w3c/wcag21/issues/61 16:06:23 al: what is complex? 16:06:34 q? 16:06:39 dmc: anything that is not x,y coordinate. 16:06:44 q+ 16:06:46 There was a suggestion posted: https://github.com/w3c/wcag21/issues/196 16:06:56 for those comments 16:07:06 https://github.com/w3c/wcag21/issues/196#issuecomment-292242824 16:07:37 ... if OS pinch zoom. if author creates a gesture that takes more than one finger, then authors has too make available a gesture by 1 finger 16:07:54 Functionality requiring complex or timed pointer gestures or multi-pointer gestures can also be operated with simple pointer gestures unless the use of multiple fingers and complex gestures is essential or content is operated in a multi-user environment 16:08:04 notes that Detlev response at 196 is not in version of SC in survey 16:08:39 q? 16:08:41 al: how is this addressed in SC? issue... scenarios multipoint interactions. 16:08:52 dmc: there is an exception. 16:09:00 Functionality requiring complex or timed pointer gestures or multi-pointer gestures can also be operated with simple pointer gestures unless the use of multiple fingers and complex gestures is essential or content is operated in a multi-user environment." 16:09:03 al: text in survey is not valid 16:09:21 detlev: new language for exception 16:09:21 Sorry all need to drop off! Please loop me into external conversations as necessary: chris.mcmeeking@deque.com. 16:09:32 How about saying "complex, timed, or multi-point gestures" and make that a link to a glossary entry? 16:09:37 q? 16:09:46 That address the question I put in the survey. 16:10:01 We can use piano app as an example. 16:10:47 al: ok, so far. and new language. management issue. 16:11:42 We could send it to the list or talk on Thursday 16:11:42 +1 to discuss next week; we've barely had discussion here. 16:11:43 detlev: another survey for next week. 16:12:16 dmc: put out now, then CFC additional time to review. 16:12:44 joc: not happy with process. not clear what we are asking people. 16:13:12 detlev: use text from issue 196 16:13:33 kathy: I will update text language in githup 16:13:44 ... we will adjust 16:14:08 kathy: its complicated 16:15:04 joc: don't want to force snap decisions. 16:15:29 dmc: hard stop on SCs going in Aug 21 16:15:38 q+ 16:15:50 q+ to ask quick question about [COGA] Plain Language question 2 on survey 16:16:04 q+ 16:16:04 joc: discussing process 16:16:17 ack jason 16:16:48 jw: issues would be addressed if had proper text 16:16:51 ack gower 16:18:01 ack bruce 16:18:01 bruce_bailey, you wanted to ask quick question about [COGA] Plain Language question 2 on survey 16:18:07 mg: concern - SC at 2 levels. some mature. some need discussion on language or scope. need to add editors notes and put in draft. some should not be discussed until more mature. 16:18:40 bb: agree with mg. do I make comments on 30 or 41 16:18:43 is coga 30 or 41 ? 16:18:45 ack alex 16:19:13 I will comment on 30 then. 16:19:35 Okay, 41 then! 16:20:50 al: pointer gestures. duplication.... complex gesture, then later multipoint gesture. they are same thing. makes for confusion. 16:21:03 Functionality requiring timed pointer gestures or multi-pointer gestures can also be operated with simple pointer gestures. 16:21:07 .... complex introduces uncertainty. 16:21:30 ... just user multipoint gesture. 16:21:50 can you put in the proposed language? 16:21:50 al: unless the use of multipoint gestures is essential. 16:21:58 ... simplifies it 16:22:15 kw: will change wording 16:22:25 mg: see new wording above. 16:22:44 Functionality requiring timed pointer gestures or multi-point gestures can also be operated with simple pointer gestures unless the use of multi-point gestures is essential.. 16:22:54 al: single point gestures does not solve time problem 16:23:36 q? 16:23:43 detlev: was floating timing issue in comment but got not responses. your comments would have been helpful. 16:23:47 q+ 16:23:50 kw: see new lang above 16:23:56 ack gower 16:24:16 mg: alex, if we shorten, would it be better. 16:24:26 ... non-timed single point 16:24:57 al: need a solution. non-timed single point gesture... only tab or stroke, nothing else 16:25:42 Functionality requiring custom complex gestures can also be operated with simple pointer gestures unless the use of multi-point gestures is essential. 16:25:57 JA: This is the same issue we were having with tooltip. 16:26:03 dmc: custom gesture written by authors. 16:26:14 JA: There are custom things done by the author and then things done by the OS. 16:26:34 +1 to observations on etsi scoping 16:26:39 al: this will bleed over into OS. 16:26:39 +1 to Alex 16:26:53 ... not good. OS needs complex gestures 16:27:05 kw: new wording 16:27:12 q+ 16:27:23 Functionality requiring custom complex gestures can also be operated with single point gestures unless the use of complex gestures is essential. 16:27:30 al: single point gestures vs multipoint gestures 16:27:46 ack jason 16:28:00 +1 16:28:06 looks fine to me - can we vote on it? 16:28:13 jw: defintions ... 16:28:34 ...can also be operated without complex gestures..." 16:28:40 joc: with new text alex are you ok with this? 16:28:59 ... can we put this in the draft 16:29:21 +1 to Kathy's suggested text 16:29:30 Can't say "without complex gestures" as another SC already requires keyboard methods. 16:29:36 okay 16:29:45 s/say/merely say/ 16:29:56 Please PASTE language we are voting on 16:30:00 Functionality requiring custom complex gestures can also be operated with single point gestures unless the use of complex gestures is essential. 16:30:00 Functionality requiring custom complex gestures can also be operated with single point gestures unless the use of complex gestures is essential. 16:30:04 +1 16:30:06 +1 16:30:08 +1 to Kathy's edit 16:30:10 +1 16:30:12 +1 16:30:12 +1 16:30:15 joc: vote please 16:30:15 +1 16:30:17 Sorry, what about timing, is that dropped? 16:30:21 +1 16:30:44 +1 16:30:46 kw: timed and multipoint are included 16:30:54 +1 w definitions and timed 16:31:03 jw: need time to review 16:31:10 -1 as the "can also be operated with single point gestures" does not address timed gestures, while "complex" does 16:31:33 joc: will resurvey 16:31:56 RESOLUTION: leave open resurvey 16:32:05 I would say "Functionality requiring custom _complex gestures_ can also be operated with _simple gestures_ unless the use of complex gestures is essential.", with definitions for both terms. 16:32:09 laura has left #ag 16:32:14 meeting ended. 16:32:25 trackbot, end meeting 16:32:25 Zakim, list attendees 16:32:25 As of this point the attendees have been AWK, KimD, JakeAbma, Laura, ChrisLoiselle, JF, steverep, jasonjgw, MikeGower, Greg_Lowney, Melanie_Philipp, Makoto, dboudreau, Detlev, 16:32:28 ... wayne, WayneDick, chriscm, lisa, bruce_bailey, MichaelC, Rachael, kirkwood, marcjohlic, Pietro, jon_avila, alastairc, JMcSorley, David-MacDonald, Kathy, JanMcSorley, 16:32:28 ... Katie_Haritos-Shea, Elledge, allanj, bruce-bailey, MichaelC_, shadi, Wilco, Mike_Pluke 16:32:33 RRSAgent, please draft minutes 16:32:33 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/08/01-ag-minutes.html trackbot 16:32:34 RRSAgent, bye 16:32:34 I see no action items