13:48:34 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #lvtf
13:48:34 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2017/07/20-lvtf-irc
13:48:36 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
13:48:39 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be
13:48:39 <trackbot> Meeting: Low Vision Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
13:48:39 <trackbot> Date: 20 July 2017
13:48:39 <Zakim> I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot
13:54:36 <allanj> chair: Jim
13:56:33 <allanj> Agenda+ Fixed Headers (related to 77 resize content)
13:56:35 <allanj> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2017JulSep/0243.html
13:56:36 <allanj> Agenda+ Popup Interference (MetaData on Hover)
13:56:38 <allanj> https://github.com/w3c/wcag21/issues/75#issuecomment-309306101
13:56:39 <allanj> Agenda+ Reflow/Linearize
13:56:41 <allanj> https://github.com/w3c/wcag21/issues/58
13:56:42 <allanj> Agenda+ Printing
13:56:44 <allanj> https://github.com/w3c/wcag21/issues/76
13:57:02 <allanj> zakim, clear agenda
13:57:02 <Zakim> agenda cleared
13:57:50 <allanj> Agenda+ Fixed Headers (related to 77 resize content)
13:57:51 <allanj> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2017JulSep/0243.html
13:57:53 <allanj> Agenda+ Popup Interference (MetaData on Hover)
13:57:55 <allanj> https://github.com/w3c/wcag21/issues/75#issuecomment-309306101
13:57:56 <allanj> Agenda+ Reflow/Linearize
13:57:58 <allanj> https://github.com/w3c/wcag21/issues/58
13:57:59 <allanj> Agenda+ Printing
13:58:01 <allanj> https://github.com/w3c/wcag21/issues/76
14:49:28 <laura> laura has joined #lvtf
14:53:32 <allanj> regrets: Marla
14:58:32 <JohnRochford> JohnRochford has joined #lvtf
15:00:06 <shawn> Hi Jim. my 8:00 meeting is still going and I need to stay in there. :( I hope to be done before we get to the get to the printing topic
15:02:48 <alastairc> alastairc has joined #lvtf
15:04:38 <allanj> scribe: Laura
15:05:12 <allanj> Zakim, Open item 1
15:05:12 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Fixed Headers (related to 77 resize content)" taken up [from allanj]
15:05:14 <laura> Jim: Adapting text is in
15:05:16 <Glenda> Glenda has joined #lvtf
15:05:31 <JohnRochford> Jim: Congratulations to Laura for the Adapting Text SC!
15:05:37 <allanj> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2017JulSep/0243.html
15:06:06 <laura> Jim: Thread from Alastair on fixed headers
15:06:55 <laura> AC: most sites work well with our model. But grey area is fixed areas.
15:07:32 <laura> AC: can obsure 80% of content with fixed headers.
15:07:51 <laura> AC: media query can fix it
15:08:01 <wayneDick> wayneDick has joined #lvtf
15:08:08 <laura> …need to define it.
15:08:33 <laura> …it is a tricky one.
15:09:35 <laura> …would be nice to have a failure. But not sure how to get it in.
15:10:08 <laura> Jim: Having it in the understanding doc seems resaonable.
15:10:32 <laura> …maybe a technique
15:10:59 <allanj> s/resaonable/reasonable
15:11:28 <laura> SC: yes we can come up with a advisory technique. Hve one in mind.
15:11:49 <allanj> s/Hve/Have
15:12:31 <laura> wayne: We can’t do everything at this time.
15:13:33 <laura> …we could put pictures in the techique.
15:15:02 <laura> Jim: would we test in portrait and landsacpe?
15:15:18 <laura> AC: should be covered in the existing SC text.
15:15:23 <steverep> steverep has joined #lvtf
15:15:28 <steverep> present+steverep
15:15:51 <laura> jim: add to the descriptiion.
15:16:25 <alastairc> Technique for: Using media queries to check for sufficient space of elements fixed to the viewport
15:16:59 <laura> AC: will draft a technique.
15:17:14 <allanj> Action: Alastair to add text in description about fixed headers, and an advisory technique such as "Using media queries to check for sufficient space of elements fixed to the viewport"
15:17:15 <trackbot> Created ACTION-99 - Add text in description about fixed headers, and an advisory technique such as "using media queries to check for sufficient space of elements fixed to the viewport" [on Alastair Campbell - due 2017-07-27].
15:17:40 <laura> present+ Laura
15:17:50 <allanj> zakim, take up next item
15:17:50 <Zakim> agendum 2. "Popup Interference (MetaData on Hover)" taken up [from allanj]
15:18:32 <laura> jim: we have 4 weeks left before AG deadline for SCs
15:19:35 <laura> Jim: do we need any more on reflow?
15:19:47 <allanj> topic: Reflow/linearize
15:20:15 <laura> AC: need to take away CSS so everything is vertical.
15:20:46 <laura> …lots of sites are unusable when you do this.
15:21:36 <laura> …more difficult. But think it is still on the table.
15:21:56 <laura> Laura: maybe ping David.
15:22:18 <laura> …David is the SC manager.
15:22:32 <laura> Wayne: think this is a lower priority.
15:22:54 <laura> …needs UA support.
15:22:59 <laura> A
15:23:11 <laura> AC: will take a lot of effort.
15:23:56 <laura> …lots of work still left to do on Adapting Text and Zoom
15:24:52 <laura> Jim: up to 400% we almost have linearization?
15:25:03 <laura> AC: it is different.
15:25:21 <laura> …zoom is cleaner.
15:25:56 <laura> Jim: any objections to lower prority for this one?
15:26:38 <laura> …no objections heard.
15:28:09 <laura> Jim: personization group will be forming. Will send out info on it later today.
15:28:50 <allanj> topic: personalization
15:28:53 <allanj> https://www.w3.org/TR/personalization-semantics-1.0/
15:30:23 <allanj> Task force in preliminary forrmation. LisaS and John LaPierre co-chairs
15:31:36 <laura> zakim, take up next item
15:31:36 <Zakim> agendum 3. "Reflow/Linearize" taken up [from allanj]
15:31:37 <allanj> Topic: Popup Interference (MetaData on Hover)
15:31:46 <allanj> https://github.com/w3c/wcag21/issues/75
15:32:01 <allanj> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/low-vision-a11y-tf/wiki/Wayne%27s_Metadata_Scratch_pad#Current:
15:32:37 <laura> Jim: link to waynes Scratch pad
15:32:54 <allanj> For informational content that appears on hover or focus, all of the following are true:
15:32:56 <allanj> Turn Off
15:32:57 <allanj> The informational content can be turned off
15:32:59 <allanj> Neither obscures nor is obscured
15:33:00 <allanj> The informational content does not obscure the triggering content nor is it obscured by the pointer
15:33:02 <allanj> Other method
15:33:03 <allanj> hover and/or focus are not the only means of accessing the informational content
15:33:05 <allanj> Not important
15:33:06 <allanj> does not include information necessary to perceive content
15:33:08 <allanj> Note
15:33:09 <allanj> This does not apply to user agent rendering of the title attribute.
15:34:09 <laura> Jim: that is the current wording.
15:35:22 <allanj> mgower comment: https://github.com/w3c/wcag21/issues/75#issuecomment-313684490
15:35:31 <laura> jim:  mbgower  had some concerns. https://github.com/w3c/wcag21/issues/75#issuecomment-313684490
15:37:00 <allanj> he had issues with outline on links.  and why this is against focus.
15:38:23 <allanj> ja: if something has additional content, don't want it to pop up on hover or focus. want to know additional content exists and hit enter to make it appear and esc to make it go away
15:38:38 <laura> john: it can obscure
15:40:45 <allanj> wayne: if outline (thick obscures) it shouldn't be there.
15:41:00 <laura> John: thin borders can obscure
15:42:44 <laura> Jim: The informational content can be turned off
15:43:29 <laura> …mike G said to use mechnism
15:43:31 <allanj> mgower suggested: a mechanism is available to allow user control for the display of non-persistent textual information.
15:43:55 <allanj> evil mechanism word
15:44:10 <allanj> wayne: is it important to turn on/off
15:44:16 <allanj> laura: depends
15:45:05 <laura> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/low-vision-a11y-tf/wiki/Wayne%27s_Metadata_Scratch_pad#Current
15:45:15 <allanj> reveal preseencse then activate in soem fashion
15:45:49 <allanj> reveal presence then activate in some fashion
15:46:53 <allanj> original wording: Informational content that is only shown by hovering a mouse over an element is not used as the only means of conveying information and does not obscure other content.
15:48:27 <steverep> q+
15:49:39 <laura> steve: for turning off what is the mechanism?
15:50:09 <laura> …how am I going to qurn it off?
15:50:34 <laura> s/qurn/turn/
15:50:37 <wayneDick> Meta Data on Hover ·        be fully visible,  ·        be available on focus as well as hover  ·        be available via any input method.  ·        not be obscured, and  ·        not obscure important content that is related to the triggering event.
15:51:38 <wayneDick> Meta on Hover
15:52:41 <laura> steve: what is the other means?
15:52:47 <laura> jim: icon
15:52:55 <wayneDick> be fully visible, be availableon focus as well as hover, be available via any input methos, Not be oblcuredd, not oblcure essential content
15:54:51 <allanj> sr: if we eliminate focus/hover, what's left?
15:56:03 <JohnRochford> Gotta go, folks.
15:56:11 <wayneDick> full visible, available on focus as well, not obscure essential content
15:57:08 <allanj> sr: if not available on focus fails 2.1.1 - keyboard access
15:59:13 <allanj> For informational content that appears on hover or focus, all of the following are true
16:00:35 <steverep> q+
16:00:46 <allanj> all popup content is visible on the page, or a way to get to it to read it. (if you move mouse then no longer hover and tooltip vanishes)
16:02:03 <allanj> sr: stuff running off the page, view a specific size/resolution.
16:02:08 <laura> steve: problem with stuff running off page.
16:02:31 <allanj> ... focus is not triggered on hover.
16:03:27 <allanj> ... if box appears when you hover over an icon, user should be able to move mouse to box and the box should not disappear until mouse off of the box
16:04:30 <allanj> sr: should be any content
16:04:58 <allanj> ... user can fully access content that pops up
16:05:11 <allanj> ... user can get to information behind it also
16:06:34 <allanj> lc: content is not obscured by or obscures triggering content.
16:07:33 <laura> Laura: Informational content that appears on hover or focus neither obscures nor is obscured by the triggering content.
16:08:58 <steverep> To cover the one case: Content that becomes visible on hover or focus remains visible while hover or focus is on the triggering content or the appearing content.
16:11:12 <allanj> 1. not obscure triggering content
16:13:41 <allanj> 2. triggered content remains visible while mouse is on triggered content, or focus remains on triggering content.
16:14:24 <allanj> gs: do we want authors to fix this, or can we get browser vendors to fix this. it will be a tough sell
16:15:51 <allanj> sr: is this pointer dependent. if you have arrow pointer (even giant) - don't put tooltip in lower right, unless swap to left arrow then lower left is problematic
16:16:17 <allanj> lc: perhaps an advisory technique
16:18:14 <allanj> ja: tooltip is a browser thing. author created popups they can control
16:19:07 <Glenda> We have an exception related to “user agent control”  in UIC Contrast Minimum.  Jim, maybe you can be inspired by that language for this one too “User agent control
16:19:08 <Glenda> The color(s) of the user interface component and any adjacent color(s) are determined by the user agent and are not modified by the author.”
16:19:47 <allanj> action: jim to create popup rewrite
16:19:47 <trackbot> Created ACTION-100 - Create popup rewrite [on Jim Allan - due 2017-07-27].
16:20:15 <allanj> topic: printing
16:20:30 <allanj> 	https://github.com/w3c/wcag21/issues/76
16:21:08 <allanj> wd: need to create a list of things that are necessary were dropped because of scope or browser issues
16:21:52 <allanj> change font family and color
16:21:58 <allanj> tooltip behavior
16:22:15 <allanj> linearization
16:23:48 <laura> wayne: It works in firefox.
16:24:14 <laura> Jim: things can break.
16:24:42 <allanj> this has browser implications
16:24:52 <laura> …is a browser issue in many ways.
16:25:17 <laura> wayne: 200% is the best you can do.
16:25:37 <allanj> ja: all of the spacing trickles thru to printing, but not font size or zoom
16:26:08 <shawn> present+ Shawn(part)
16:27:02 <steverep> I know we're on printing, but here's my stab at Popup Interference: Popup content does not make its triggering content invisible, and remains visible while hover or focus is on the popup content or its triggering content.  (where popup is defined as "appears on hoveror focus")
16:28:12 <laura> Jim: will post tesing to the list.
16:28:23 <allanj> specify media in the CSS to change printing font size
16:28:46 <allanj> +1 steve
16:28:48 <laura> shawn: fine with 200%.
16:30:47 <allanj> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/low-vision-a11y-tf/wiki/Printing_Customized_Text#Examples
16:33:13 <laura> shawn: thinks we should drop the zoom.
16:35:29 <allanj> wayne: CNN is a failure of 1.4.4 on printed page.
16:36:13 <laura> laura has left #lvtf
16:36:35 <allanj> need to reword SC to the authors makes print style sheet as flexible as on screen layout for accommodating adapting text spacing
16:38:18 <allanj> rrsagent, make minutes
16:38:18 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/07/20-lvtf-minutes.html allanj
16:38:30 <allanj> trackbot, end meeting
16:38:30 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
16:38:30 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been steverep, erich, Laura, Shawn(part)
16:38:38 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
16:38:38 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/07/20-lvtf-minutes.html trackbot
16:38:39 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
16:38:39 <RRSAgent> I see 2 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2017/07/20-lvtf-actions.rdf :
16:38:39 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Alastair to add text in description about fixed headers, and an advisory technique such as "Using media queries to check for sufficient space of elements fixed to the viewport" [1]
16:38:39 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2017/07/20-lvtf-irc#T15-17-14
16:38:39 <RRSAgent> ACTION: jim to create popup rewrite [2]
16:38:39 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2017/07/20-lvtf-irc#T16-19-47