14:52:38 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #i18n
14:52:38 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2017/07/13-i18n-irc
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14:52:52 <addison> trackbot, prepare teleconference
14:52:55 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
14:52:58 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 4186
14:52:58 <trackbot> Meeting: Internationalization Working Group Teleconference
14:52:58 <trackbot> Date: 13 July 2017
14:52:59 <Zakim> ok, trackbot
14:53:17 <addison> Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-core/2017Jul/0011.html
14:53:21 <addison> agenda+ Agenda
14:53:25 <addison> agenda+ Action Items
14:53:32 <addison> agenda+ Info Share
14:53:35 <addison> agenda+ Radar
14:53:51 <addison> agenda+ Requirements for language/direction metadata document (and related discussion)
14:53:56 <addison> agenda+ Unicode/XML
14:54:08 <addison> agenda+ Floating Times Q+A
14:54:17 <addison> agenda+ Brainstorming ways to reach a wider audience for reviews (ACTION-635)
14:54:33 <addison> agenda+ Microdata
14:54:41 <addison> agenda+ HTML5 and Email input
14:54:56 <addison> Chair: Addison Phillips
14:55:02 <addison> ScribeNick: addison
14:55:06 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/07/13-i18n-minutes.html addison
15:01:01 <Steve_Atkin> Steve_Atkin has joined #i18n
15:01:45 <Klensin> Klensin has joined #i18n
15:02:32 <Bert> present+
15:02:35 <r12a> agenda ?
15:02:49 <addison> present+
15:04:50 <addison> zakim, who is here?
15:04:50 <Zakim> Present: Bert, addison
15:04:52 <Zakim> On IRC I see Klensin, Steve_Atkin, Zakim, RRSAgent, addison, r12a, chaals, trackbot, Bert, fantasai, koji, bigbluehat, csarven
15:04:54 <addison> present+ David
15:05:12 <addison> present+ JcK
15:05:27 <addison> present+ Steven
15:06:00 <chaals-o> chaals-o has joined #i18n
15:06:24 <addison> agenda?
15:06:41 <addison> zakim, next item
15:06:41 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Agenda" taken up [from addison]
15:07:01 <addison> zakim, next item
15:07:01 <Zakim> agendum 1 was just opened, addison
15:07:11 <addison> https://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/open
15:07:28 <David> David has joined #I18n
15:07:51 <chaals-o> present+
15:08:12 <addison> action-631?
15:08:12 <trackbot> action-631 -- Addison Phillips to Invite chaals to teleconference in two weeks to discuss microdata -- due 2017-07-13 -- OPEN
15:08:12 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/631
15:08:22 <addison> close action-631
15:08:22 <trackbot> Closed action-631.
15:08:38 <addison> action-632?
15:08:38 <trackbot> action-632 -- Addison Phillips to Update unicode-xml to include change in status banner -- due 2017-07-13 -- OPEN
15:08:38 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/632
15:08:41 <addison> close action-632
15:08:41 <trackbot> Closed action-632.
15:08:53 <addison> action-633?
15:08:53 <trackbot> action-633 -- Richard Ishida to Create github repo for new document (call it string-metadata) -- due 2017-07-13 -- OPEN
15:08:53 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/633
15:08:58 <addison> close action-633
15:08:58 <trackbot> Closed action-633.
15:09:16 <addison> action-634?
15:09:16 <trackbot> action-634 -- Richard Ishida to Check john's comment on floating times article -- due 2017-07-13 -- OPEN
15:09:16 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/634
15:09:31 <addison> close action-634
15:09:31 <trackbot> Closed action-634.
15:09:54 <addison> jck: talked to calendaring folks
15:10:03 <addison> ... haven't heard back from resulting references
15:10:16 <addison> richard: needs a little more work, not sure what to do by end of it
15:10:33 <addison> http://w3c.github.io/i18n-drafts/questions/qa-floating-times.en
15:10:54 <addison> action: addison: update floating times q+a to address confusing section at end
15:10:54 <trackbot> Created ACTION-636 - Update floating times q+a to address confusing section at end [on Addison Phillips - due 2017-07-20].
15:11:30 <addison> action-635?
15:11:30 <trackbot> action-635 -- Addison Phillips to Remind all to think about ways and venues for reaching out to larger audience for reviews -- due 2017-07-13 -- OPEN
15:11:30 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/635
15:11:35 <addison> close action-635
15:11:35 <trackbot> Closed action-635.
15:11:46 <addison> agenda?
15:12:29 <addison> zakim, take up agendum 9
15:12:29 <Zakim> agendum 9. "Microdata" taken up [from addison]
15:13:19 <addison> chaals: microdata is like microformats to put data into a document
15:13:28 <addison> ... microdata doesn't do i18n
15:13:41 <addison> ... all attributes around i18n get thrown away
15:13:49 <addison> richard: reason why?
15:13:57 <addison> chaals: they felt it would be easier
15:14:06 <addison> ... quick hack version of
15:14:18 <addison> ... trying to spec it out and how does it fit into space where
15:14:25 <addison> ... multiple approaches exist
15:14:36 <addison> ... have proposed that instead of resolving "lacking thing"
15:14:43 <addison> ... then use RFDa
15:14:53 <addison> s/RFDa/RDFa/
15:15:17 <addison> chaals: better at handling i18n
15:15:40 <addison> ... need to get schema.org et al to rebuild parsers to support
15:16:04 <addison> ... instead of making microdata a competitor to rdfa
15:16:19 <addison> ... deprecate microdata
15:17:38 <addison> addison: what would you like us to do?
15:17:53 <addison> chaals: okay for microdata to move forward? even though weak in i18n
15:18:28 <addison> richard: where does it say that now?
15:18:38 <addison> chaals: point out rough parallels but don't spell out
15:19:21 <addison> addison: are there partizans for microdata somewhere?
15:19:41 <addison> chaals: schema founders proposed it first, but found it was bad for things
15:19:47 <addison> ... lots of microdata out there
15:19:53 <addison> ... webcommons micro crawl
15:20:05 <addison> ... billions of triples, 2/3 of which are in microdata
15:20:16 <addison> ... which is why a rec is being produced
15:20:24 <chaals> s/deprecate microdata/suggest that for uses needing e.g. internationalisation then it is easy to convert your markup to RDFa which can handle proper i18n/
15:20:38 <addison> richard: schema.org balked at using microdata...
15:20:43 <addison> chaals: no, still accept
15:20:57 <addison> ... so we started out suggesting use microdata
15:21:03 <addison> ... as we looked at it more carefully
15:21:10 <addison> ... it's pretty simplistic and badly designed
15:21:21 <addison> ... trying to map data into an RDF graph
15:21:31 <addison> ... microdata can be used for that, but no fun
15:21:44 <addison> ... RDFa or JSON-LD better fit
15:21:49 <addison> ... RDFa close match
15:21:56 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/07/13-i18n-minutes.html addison
15:21:57 <chaals> s/better fit/more fit for purpose/
15:22:42 <r12a> https://w3c.github.io/microdata/#i18n-considerations
15:24:54 <addison> addison: this is buried, are you planning for a big "sticker" on the whole?
15:27:36 <addison> addison: saying we don't need to review?
15:27:53 <addison> chaals: if you review it, you'll find it's highly inadequate
15:28:23 <addison> ... would like to move forward, because useful for simple cases
15:28:46 <addison> ... and when you "grow up" then here are better alternatives
15:28:59 <addison> richard: would prefer if people used world-ready from the start
15:29:51 <addison> addison: so do brief review, propose text for i18n section and status?
15:30:10 <addison> chaals: happy, but want to do CR transition by end of month
15:31:09 <addison> jan: I think it's wonderful, having hard time finding people to work on microdata
15:31:33 <addison> richard: do on list so others can see
15:31:39 <addison> chaals: use issues
15:32:09 <addison> addison: if tagged with i18n tags then lists will mirror
15:32:57 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/07/13-i18n-minutes.html addison
15:33:05 <addison> agenda?
15:33:15 <addison> zakim, take up agendum 10
15:33:15 <Zakim> agendum 10. "HTML5 and Email input" taken up [from addison]
15:34:26 <addison> chaals: split into two issues
15:34:32 <addison> ... left hand side and right hand side
15:34:48 <addison> ... left side, we expect addresses to normalize to punycode, i.e. ascii
15:35:08 <addison> ... we expect browsers to provide ability to input actual characters
15:35:18 <addison> ... actually easier to see in real Unicode string
15:35:31 <addison> ... say mixed russian and english
15:35:35 <addison> ... also easier to type
15:35:45 <addison> ... we didn't make any change to left hand side
15:35:52 <addison> s/left side/right side/
15:36:03 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/07/13-i18n-minutes.html addison
15:36:46 <addison> jck: on right hand side
15:36:59 <addison> ... while principal you describe is correct, example terrible
15:37:09 <chaals> -> https://github.com/w3c/html/issues/845 the left-hand-side issue
15:37:16 <addison> ... if string with cyrillic is displayed in punycode
15:37:28 <addison> ... it's a warning
15:37:36 <addison> ... in general case exactly right
15:37:45 <addison> ... left side is more problematic
15:37:54 <addison> ... standard says "don't convert"
15:38:04 <addison> ... use native character form in UTF-8
15:38:21 <addison> ... don't allow non-ascii means don't use those addresses
15:39:06 <addison> chaals: no browser currently accepts anything on left hand side anything but ascii
15:39:19 <addison> ... won't put in CR if no implementation
15:39:27 <addison> ... could put in FPWD of 5.3
15:39:37 <addison> ... but getting 5.2 CR out
15:39:57 <addison> jck: your recommendation is why browsers don't, e.g. a chicken and egg problem
15:40:08 <addison> chaals: reason to change right hand side, to push browsers
15:40:21 <addison> ... going back to russian example
15:40:38 <addison> ... punycode as helpful warning is only useful if assume ascii email address
15:40:49 <addison> ... not as powerful outside
15:41:04 <addison> jck: conclusion is correct, and correct for another reason mentioned on thread
15:41:23 <addison> ... because a couple of vendors have decided to implement local domains/domain names
15:41:35 <addison> ... that are not ACE but are in native encoding
15:41:43 <chaals> -> https://github.com/w3c/html/issues/538 the email issue for the right-hand-side
15:41:48 <addison> ... advantages to browsers to keep in that form until late binding
15:41:52 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/07/13-i18n-minutes.html addison
15:42:47 <addison> chaals: recognize the problem
15:42:56 <addison> ... like HTML to push browsers to be helpful
15:43:06 <addison> ... lot of pushback on parent security issue
15:43:13 <addison> ... not well argued case?
15:43:31 <addison> ... getting some support to move in this direction is surprisingly hard
15:43:57 <addison> jck: would a letter from chinese government help?
15:44:06 <addison> chaals: yes, especially in github
15:44:13 <addison> jck: will try to get generated
15:44:32 <addison> chaals: better if they proded someone to implement support
15:44:59 <addison> addison: need to find a browser to do it?
15:45:04 <addison> chaals: yes
15:45:30 <addison> jck: arguably, what html should be doing is accepting what it gets and passing
15:45:58 <addison> ... keep in utf-* until it interfaces with i.e. smtp
15:46:06 <addison> ... html is trying to secondguess
15:47:35 <addison> addison: utility is to page authors, not necessarily about sending
15:47:53 <addison> chaals: don't think html got syntax right
15:48:10 <addison> ... they were inventing stuff at that time
15:48:26 <addison> ... comment for real serious use case and really want
15:48:37 <addison> ... at least in a draft, possibly marked "at risk" when goes in
15:48:46 <addison> ... saying we want is good, but need impleentation
15:49:35 <addison> jck: concern about ascii-only problem that goes back to at least html2
15:50:46 <addison> action: jck: stimulate non-ascii email advocates to provide feedback on EAI support in HTML
15:50:46 <trackbot> Created ACTION-637 - Stimulate non-ascii email advocates to provide feedback on eai support in html [on John Klensin - due 2017-07-20].
15:51:01 <addison> chaals: expect call for consensus on 5.2 next week
15:51:23 <addison> ... also plan to start 5.3
15:51:36 <addison> ... from the 5.2 doc so can ship next year
15:51:52 <addison> ... do you anticpate an objection?
15:52:27 <addison> addison: don't expect to object
15:52:36 <addison> chaals: a formal statement would be helpful to me
15:52:54 <addison> action: addison: provide a formal statement on i18n position on eai in html
15:52:54 <trackbot> Created ACTION-638 - Provide a formal statement on i18n position on eai in html [on Addison Phillips - due 2017-07-20].
15:53:11 <addison> chaals: easiest place to comment is on the issue
15:53:24 <addison> ... can post a pointer there
15:53:48 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/07/13-i18n-minutes.html addison
15:53:53 <addison> agenda?
15:54:15 <addison> zakim, take up agendum 4
15:54:15 <Zakim> agendum 4. "Radar" taken up [from addison]
15:54:27 <addison> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/projects/1
15:56:39 <addison> action-622?
15:56:39 <trackbot> action-622 -- Bert Bos to Forward poe/ordl comments on behalf of bert -- due 2017-06-08 -- OPEN
15:56:39 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/622
15:58:08 <addison> Topic: AOB?
15:58:11 <addison> Topic: Info Share
15:58:20 <addison> richard: unicode in xml was published today
15:58:27 <addison> ... about an hour ago as a retired note
15:58:36 <addison> ... so at bottom of our list of our TRs
15:58:49 <addison> richard: have a new github repo called string-metadata
15:58:56 <addison> ... a hefty PR in there
15:59:36 <addison> addison: will take up
16:00:23 <chaals> [Note that HTML 5.2 includes input type="datetime-local" which is a floating time zone. I'll see if it makes sense to comment on the question]
16:01:52 <r12a> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:01:52 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/07/13-i18n-minutes.html r12a
16:11:34 <r12a> present+ Jan
16:14:17 <r12a> s/do on list/do in issue list/
16:14:25 <chaals-o> chaals-o has joined #i18n
16:15:13 <r12a> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:15:13 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/07/13-i18n-minutes.html r12a
16:19:33 <r12a> rrsagent, bye
16:19:33 <RRSAgent> I see 3 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2017/07/13-i18n-actions.rdf :
16:19:33 <RRSAgent> ACTION: addison: update floating times q+a to address confusing section at end [1]
16:19:33 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2017/07/13-i18n-irc#T15-10-54
16:19:33 <RRSAgent> ACTION: jck: stimulate non-ascii email advocates to provide feedback on EAI support in HTML [2]
16:19:33 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2017/07/13-i18n-irc#T15-50-46
16:19:33 <RRSAgent> ACTION: addison: provide a formal statement on i18n position on eai in html [3]
16:19:33 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2017/07/13-i18n-irc#T15-52-54
16:19:39 <r12a> zakim, bye
16:19:39 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees have been Bert, addison, David, JcK, Steven, chaals-o, Jan
16:19:39 <Zakim> Zakim has left #i18n