IRC log of pwg on 2017-07-10

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:53:36 [RRSAgent]
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logging to
15:53:56 [Zakim]
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15:54:06 [wolfgang]
*I have no audio connection today (as I am not at my office) so that I may only act via IRC ;)
15:54:53 [wolfgang]
*Wolfgang waves back @dauwhe :)
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15:59:01 [Vlad]
15:59:02 [dauwhe]
Zakim, who is here?
15:59:02 [Zakim]
Present: laudrain, timcole, Vlad
15:59:04 [Zakim]
On IRC I see toshiakikoike, laudrain, mateus-teixeira, timcole, Vlad, Zakim, RRSAgent, wolfgang, mattg, Rachel, Karen, plinss, tzviya, dauwhe, astearns, bigbluehat
15:59:04 [wolfgang]
*is it possible to ask sth via IRC only?
15:59:22 [mateus-teixeira]
15:59:23 [ShaneM]
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15:59:29 [dauwhe]
present+ dauwhe
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15:59:53 [Rachel]
15:59:55 [tzviya]
16:00:04 [rkwright]
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16:00:35 [hagreen]
present+ harriett_green
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16:00:50 [garth]
present+ Garth
16:00:53 [wolfgang]
*thx, tzviya :)
16:00:57 [Avneesh]
present+ Avneesh
16:00:59 [tzviya]
rrsagent, this is PWG Weekly Meeting
16:00:59 [RRSAgent]
I'm logging. I don't understand 'this is PWG Weekly Meeting', tzviya. Try /msg RRSAgent help
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16:01:44 [leonardr]
present+ Leonard
16:02:01 [wolfgang]
*bots have a quite restricted vocab.
16:02:08 [Hadrien]
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16:02:36 [cmaden2]
present+ Chris_Maden
16:02:39 [pkra]
present+ Peter Krautzberger
16:02:50 [ShaneM]
present+ ShaneM
16:02:57 [tzviya]
chair: Tzviya
16:03:15 [tzviya]
zakim, pick a victim
16:03:15 [Zakim]
Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose mateus-teixeira
16:03:33 [pkra]
I can scribe
16:03:46 [laurentlemeur]
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16:03:49 [leonardr]
thanks Peter!
16:03:54 [laurentlemeur]
16:03:54 [leonardr]
(if you need help, let me know...)
16:03:57 [duga]
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16:04:06 [Avneesh]
16:04:13 [Bill_Kasdorf]
16:04:20 [tzviya]
16:04:23 [Hadrien]
16:04:29 [pkra]
tzviya: approval of previous minutes
16:04:29 [fchasen]
16:04:53 [pkra]
... => approved.
16:05:07 [HeatherF]
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16:05:29 [pkra]
harriet: new to the group, representing University of Illinois.
16:05:44 [clapierre]
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16:05:50 [wolfgang]
welcome, harriett!
16:05:55 [pkra]
... digital publishing initiative
16:05:58 [hagreen]
thank you!
16:06:37 [pkra]
tzviya: shane from specOps is here.
16:06:42 [pkra]
... we would like your input on testing etc.
16:06:47 [pkra]
... overview:
16:06:57 [ShaneM]
16:07:02 [pkra]
... WG was just chartered
16:07:19 [pkra]
... somewhat special since we carry on items from IDPF merger
16:07:23 [pkra]
... four deliverables:
16:07:44 [BillMcCoy]
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16:07:45 [Avneesh]
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16:07:51 [pkra]
... web publications and portable wp might end up be one specification with a layering
16:07:53 [BillMcCoy]
present+ BillMcCoy
16:07:56 [pkra]
... epub4 is next epub version
16:07:56 [mattg]
16:07:59 [leonardr]
<- as an Illini grad, go @dauwhe!
16:08:09 [pkra]
... dpub-aria is a continuation of the current spec
16:08:18 [pkra]
... all specs need testing, we need testable specs
16:08:26 [HeatherF]
Yay for iterative testing!
16:08:31 [clapierre]
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16:08:33 [pkra]
... given the amount of specs, we have a lot of work to do.
16:08:53 [George]
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16:09:09 [pkra]
shane: daunting tasks
16:09:23 [pkra]
tzviya: we're not necessarily talking about browser implementations
16:09:36 [George]
The telephone access code is what?
16:09:56 [garth]
USA: +1 (312) 757-3129
16:10:00 [pkra]
... e.g., Readium team largely here, will feed into testing via Readium. not expecting Firefox etc to implement anything.
16:10:03 [garth]
Access code: 994-278-485
16:10:26 [pkra]
... we we need to make sure that we clarify epub notion of reading system and user agent.
16:10:44 [leonardr]
16:10:45 [tzviya]
16:10:53 [tzviya]
ack l
16:10:53 [pkra]
... if reading system uses the same kernel as a browser but does something special, that might count as a different agent.
16:11:06 [rkwright]
16:11:19 [tzviya]
16:11:21 [pkra]
leonard: each of our documents have different testing requirements.
16:12:00 [tzviya]
ack rk
16:12:06 [pkra]
ric: from readium foundation perspective, there are several different variants
16:12:13 [pkra]
... SDK uses different engines
16:12:19 [pkra]
... chrome app, end of life this year
16:12:19 [George]
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16:12:29 [pkra]
... readium cloud reader => whatever browser
16:12:36 [pkra]
... all leveraging a browser engine underneath.
16:12:51 [pkra]
shane: web engine for presentation and user interface?
16:12:54 [pkra]
ric: yes, and scripting.
16:13:17 [pkra]
tzviya: to recap, somewhat different than usual W3C testing.
16:13:45 [pkra]
... note: FPWD targeted before TPAC.
16:13:56 [leonardr]
MN in winter - +1 to that :)
16:14:23 [pkra]
shane: we have a lot of work on testing.
16:14:55 [pkra]
... focused on accelerating
16:15:02 [pkra]
... breaking the problems down a bit:
16:15:19 [pkra]
... dpub-aria space is well understood, reasonable testing strategy that seems to work
16:15:31 [pkra]
... underlying a11y platforms is also well understood.
16:15:47 [George]
994 278 485 does not work
16:15:48 [pkra]
... feel free to take advantage of the smart people around that.
16:15:53 [leonardr]
16:16:07 [pkra]
... re epub, lots of platforms consume epub
16:16:25 [pkra]
... at w3c, we want to be inclusive of anyone that implement our specs
16:16:51 [pkra]
... how has epub testing been done historically?
16:16:53 [leonardr]
(yup - no hurry)
16:17:18 [pkra]
tzviya: IDPF had different implementation requirements, more "how do you plan to implement"
16:17:28 [laurentlemeur]
to tzviya, ok
16:17:39 [dauwhe]
16:17:42 [pkra]
duga: there is an epub test suite, maybe somewhat stale, tackling rendering and processing
16:17:57 [tzviya] tests reading systems - very manual
16:18:02 [pkra]
... epubcheck tool: checks epubs against specs, also a little stale but efforts to update underway
16:18:03 [duga]
16:18:13 [pkra]
16:18:16 [pkra]
thanks duga.
16:18:31 [tzviya] is test suite for epub files - overhaul in progress
16:18:34 [tzviya]
ack lr
16:18:35 [pkra]
leonard: from F2F, can you talk about W3C testing authoring vs consumption?
16:18:46 [pkra]
shane: authoring is not tested.
16:18:58 [cmaden2]
Is that true? HTML and CSS validators?
16:19:11 [pkra]
... W3C publishes guidelines for a11y, i.e., WCAG
16:19:16 [laurentlemeur]
to George, the US number is USA: +1 (312) 757-3129
16:19:20 [pkra]
... that's requirement on content but IIRC the only requirement.
16:19:21 [cmaden2]
The XML specs are content specifications.
16:19:33 [pkra]
leonard: how does this apply to HTML and CSS validation?
16:19:54 [pkra]
shane: we only provide tools for authors to check their content.
16:19:59 [leonardr]
Thanks @shaneM
16:20:22 [pkra]
tzviya: that's another difference from IDPF, historically provided validators, i.e., epubcheck.
16:20:38 [pkra]
... its success is not due to IDPF requiring it but people selling epub requiring it.
16:20:49 [pkra]
... to come back to testing specs.
16:21:00 [pkra]
... that's not something that's been done historically at IDPF / for epub
16:21:06 [pkra]
... it's a pretty manual process
16:21:08 [wolfgang]
I think a validator is decisive for a publishing format
16:21:10 [pkra]
... nothing automated about it.
16:21:38 [pkra]
shane: is it correct to say: epub3 is (or will be in epub4) a superset of HTML and CSS.
16:21:51 [pkra]
garth: both sub and superset.
16:21:53 [tzviya]
16:22:00 [leonardr]
16:22:00 [pkra]
... this might be less true as we define epub4.
16:22:09 [pkra]
... likelihood that we will leave more alone than in the past.
16:22:19 [rkwright]
Like SVG animation...
16:22:22 [George]
present+ George
16:22:49 [pkra]
tzviya: for web publications, while we haven't figured details out, it's modeled on top of web app manifest.
16:23:05 [pkra]
... i.e., a superset.
16:23:39 [George]
Tzviya sounds good
16:23:46 [pkra]
shane: there are already rich tools for testing html/css/js/dom implementations.
16:23:55 [ShaneM]
16:23:59 [pkra]
... webplatform tests are a large collection of tools.
16:24:54 [pkra]
... these can be used to assess epub readers automatically
16:25:11 [pkra]
... if an epub reader is just something that supports the format and uses the webplatform
16:25:21 [pkra]
... then it's more about extending tests within this framework.
16:25:41 [rkwright]
16:25:53 [pkra]
... this is the way forward in the W3C
16:26:12 [pkra]
... for format, it's mainly processing structure, not throwing errors
16:26:35 [pkra]
... whether manual or automatic might be open to discussion.
16:27:29 [pkra]
... manual is onerous but is ok and can be necessary
16:27:59 [pkra]
... some automated via format checks (manifests => associated files => feed them into existing processors)
16:28:05 [pkra]
... on epub side, we can use the tests you have.
16:28:22 [pkra]
... essentially, epub is a profile of the web platform.
16:28:43 [tzviya]
ack rk
16:28:48 [pkra]
... so you can define that profile and define tests that implementor has to pass in addition to web platform tests
16:29:36 [pkra]
rick: from F2F, do we need to test aspects of specs that are not part of the packaging structure, i.e., do we need to run html tests, do we need to create epubs that encapsulate all the web platform tests?
16:29:39 [dauwhe]
16:29:50 [pkra]
... or just those that are part of the packaging or specs we produce.
16:30:02 [pkra]
shane: I suspect it's up to the group.
16:30:06 [pkra]
see what I did there, shane?
16:30:18 [pkra]
... depends on the architecture of the reader
16:30:33 [pkra]
... e.g., Readium built on platform browsers who already run these tests.
16:30:36 [leonardr]
16:30:52 [pkra]
... would find approval in W3C to state that you use browsers that are known to run all tests
16:31:32 [tzviya]
ack da
16:31:37 [pkra]
rick: went through test suite, some don't use readium at all, just testing underlying browser engine (e.g., fetching a file and rendering)
16:32:09 [tzviya]
ack l
16:32:12 [pkra]
dauwhe: for testing browser features, the history of epub shows that we have challenges. every reading systems has mangled some CSS, so we do need to test.
16:32:35 [pkra]
leonard: also, security.
16:33:06 [pkra]
tzviya: shane, any recommendations to get started with these tests?
16:33:13 [pkra]
... not many people have experience with W3C test
16:33:23 [pkra]
shane: start with assertions, testable statements.
16:33:33 [pkra]
... people tend to start with a wiki to capture them
16:33:41 [pkra]
... then work out how that might be tested
16:33:50 [pkra]
... that usually reveals how this could be tested
16:34:31 [pkra]
... once you have some momentum there, then work on a general strategy
16:34:55 [pkra]
... at that point bring in somebody like shane
16:35:47 [tzviya]
rrsagent, make logs public
16:36:04 [pkra]
... e.g., fetching requests, there are tests, including lots of edge cases.
16:36:19 [pkra]
tzviya: any suggestions?
16:36:25 [pkra]
shane: e.g., benjamin.
16:36:38 [pkra]
... also browser vendor people are available to W3C.
16:37:15 [pkra]
... I will do some reflection and come back with suggestions.
16:37:49 [pkra]
... it's a social critical task.
16:37:59 [pkra]
... for us
16:38:18 [pkra]
tzviya: ok, we will follow up.
16:38:44 [pkra]
tzviya: agenda item: packaging format update
16:38:49 [garth]
16:38:53 [pkra]
garth: see link.
16:38:55 [tzviya]
topic: web packaging update
16:38:59 [pkra]
... briefly discussed at F2F
16:39:13 [pkra]
... the new web packaging effort seems to be alive
16:39:26 [pkra]
... brady and garth met with some of Googlers
16:39:28 [BillMcCoy]
16:39:36 [pkra]
... they are open to working with us
16:39:44 [pkra]
... to see how it can fit our needs as well
16:39:46 [leonardr]
16:40:11 [pkra]
... it is being bifurcated, formatting and signing taking to IETF while browser and packaging will remain in W3C.
16:40:27 [HeatherF]
16:40:30 [HeatherF]
Which working group?
16:40:32 [pkra]
... IETF in Prague this month, the work will be presented there.
16:40:48 [pkra]
... after that we might get an update from them
16:40:50 [HeatherF]
16:40:56 [tzviya]
ack b
16:40:59 [pkra]
... might have news late this month.
16:41:07 [leonardr]
@heatherF - I'm wondering the same thing because AFAIK it's not be taken up by anyone...
16:41:22 [pkra]
billM: re coordination with web platform WG
16:41:46 [pkra]
... latest conception of spec in recharter of web platform WG has drifted quite a bit
16:42:03 [pkra]
... connection with web app manifest
16:42:14 [pkra]
... we might need further coordination on that that's broader than publishing
16:42:44 [tzviya]
ack l
16:43:22 [tzviya]
ack h
16:43:25 [pkra]
... not clear if co-chairs have signed off on moving to IETF
16:43:30 [pkra]
leonard: spoke to our IETF reps, IETF does not seem to have taken this up
16:43:40 [pkra]
HeatherF: what group is supposed to be discussing this?
16:43:51 [pkra]
leonard: that's the question. couldn't find a group.
16:44:07 [pkra]
... maybe we can ask Jeffrey what IETF group is taking this up.
16:44:10 [pkra]
garth: will do.
16:44:33 [pkra]
tzviya: topic manifest
16:44:35 [tzviya]
topic: Manifest
16:44:55 [pkra]
dauwhe: one of our issues has 72 comments.
16:45:09 [pkra]
... struggling to focus some of the conversation.
16:45:12 [tzviya]
16:45:30 [pkra]
... some premature discussion on serialization.
16:45:40 [pkra]
... somewhat worried about re-inventing the wheel.
16:45:46 [pkra]
... e.g. navigation
16:46:05 [pkra]
... web publication and the web works, we should build on that
16:46:16 [pkra]
... instead of stuff that's only implemented in a very narrow world.
16:46:20 [garth]
16:46:42 [pkra]
tzviya: agreed. some issues are getting into very technical details.
16:47:05 [pkra]
... but we need to focus on broad FPWD not specifics if json is best
16:47:19 [pkra]
... we need to get the broad scope of that down.
16:47:33 [pkra]
dauwhe: I think we are wrestling with some fundamental issues
16:48:02 [pkra]
... trying to write something down in the broadest way possible, forces us to work through these issues.
16:48:06 [pkra]
... they will be very impactful later on.
16:48:07 [tzviya]
16:48:30 [pkra]
.... e.g., idea of dauwhe going through issues, splitting off smaller bites
16:48:41 [pkra]
... that seems like a reasonable next step.
16:48:54 [pkra]
tzviya: and don't hesitate to close issues.
16:49:03 [timcole]
16:49:10 [pkra]
garth: issue with high-level stuff in manifest
16:49:19 [pkra]
... if we break them down, do we risk rat-holing on the technical issues
16:49:40 [pkra]
... as opposed to driving towards agreement on the 5/6 items that should end up in manifest.
16:49:50 [tzviya]
16:49:52 [leonardr]
16:50:05 [pkra]
dauwhe: makes sense. Maybe try to move that issue more towards on consensus on the big picture.
16:50:16 [tzviya]
ack ti
16:50:17 [pkra]
... on required vs nice to have bits.
16:51:08 [pkra]
tim: re spawning more issues. providing a venue for discussion details like serialization.
16:51:30 [pkra]
... if we break it off now, it can continue for as long as it needs to, say a year.
16:51:35 [pkra]
... you don't want your main issue to go on that long.
16:51:45 [pkra]
... but those one's can.
16:51:57 [tzviya]
ack tz
16:52:22 [pkra]
tzviya: note that we don't have to resolve issues before starting to write.
16:52:49 [pkra]
... dauwhe, maybe getting something down on pixels will be better to make progress.
16:52:55 [tzviya]
ack l
16:52:56 [pkra]
dauwhe: agreed.
16:53:25 [pkra]
leonard: some of the long threads came to good points of agreements.
16:53:37 [pkra]
... e.g., what is (not) required for manifest.
16:53:46 [pkra]
... I think there's good work already.
16:54:07 [pkra]
... happy to help sorting out spin-off issues
16:54:37 [pkra]
tzviya: any other groups want to get started?
16:55:23 [tzviya]
topic: Accessibility TF
16:55:40 [pkra]
avneesh: send out call of participation
16:55:46 [garth]
Doc of tasks from NYC:
16:55:50 [pkra]
... about a dozen interests, mostly US.
16:56:08 [pkra]
... we can only formulate our plan once we talk to wcag.
16:56:31 [pkra]
... we've reached out, some delays due to vacations.
16:56:38 [pkra]
... but we need to prepare well.
16:57:03 [pkra]
... once we do that, we need to figure out the timeline and sort out what goes where (on which WG )
16:57:44 [pkra]
tzviya: rich from WCAG reached out on interest in co-chairing personalization TF
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16:58:14 [pkra]
avneesh: we have to work out priorities. There are groups where we need to participate vs we need to drive.
16:58:18 [clapierre]
16:58:23 [tzviya]
ack cl
16:58:33 [pkra]
tzviya: agreed but they are actively looking for a co-chair.
16:58:54 [pkra]
clapierre: tentatively interested.
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17:05:44 [tzviya]
rrsagent, make minutes
17:05:44 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate tzviya
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