13:55:02 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #dxwg
13:55:02 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2017/06/26-dxwg-irc
13:55:04 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
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13:55:06 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be
13:55:06 <Zakim> I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot
13:55:07 <trackbot> Meeting: Dataset Exchange Working Group Teleconference
13:55:07 <trackbot> Date: 26 June 2017
13:55:29 <phila> regrets+ Ruben, Peter_Winstanley, Antoine, Colleen_Fallaw, Eric_Stephan
13:55:43 <phila> agenda: https://www.w3.org/2017/dxwg/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2017.06.26
13:55:50 <phila> chair: Karen
13:55:52 <phila> present+
13:56:04 <phila> RRSAgent, draft minutes
13:56:04 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/06/26-dxwg-minutes.html phila
13:56:11 <phila> RRSAgent, make logs public
13:56:35 <Dave_Browning> present+ Dave_Browning
13:56:52 <kcoyle> present+
13:56:53 <alejandra> alejandra has joined #dxwg
13:56:56 <LarsG> LarsG has joined #dxwg
13:57:08 <LarsG> present+
13:57:21 <kcoyle> Chair: Karen Coyle
13:57:49 <alejandra> present+
13:58:58 <SimonCox> SimonCox has joined #dxwg
13:59:10 <alejandra> the password has not been shared yet I think?
13:59:20 <alejandra> for webex, I mean
14:00:05 <mdaquin> mdaquin has joined #dxwg
14:00:53 <Roba> Roba has joined #Dxwg
14:01:15 <SimonCox> present+
14:01:31 <Thomas> Thomas has joined #dxwg
14:01:35 <Thomas> present
14:01:39 <mathieu> present+ mathieu
14:01:44 <Thomas> present+
14:01:46 <phila> regrets+ Luiz, Newton
14:01:46 <Roba> Am in ogc meeting and cant currently  dial in but will watch the irc
14:02:14 <Thomas> What's the webex pw?
14:02:35 <Thomas> thx
14:02:44 <phila> phila has changed the topic to: Dataset Exchange Weekly Call. See below for new PW
14:02:54 <Makx> present+
14:03:28 <Present__Ixchel> Present__Ixchel has joined #dxwg
14:03:34 <achille_zappa> achille_zappa has joined #dxwg
14:04:10 <Roba> * i think i lay be the only temporary newfoundlander
14:04:53 <annette_g> annette_g has joined #dxwg
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14:05:14 <Caroline_> Caroline_ has joined #DXWG
14:05:32 <Caroline_> Present+
14:06:09 <phila> scribe: LarsG
14:06:13 <phila> ScribeNick: LarsG
14:06:25 <phila> Topic: Preliminaries
14:06:31 <LarsG> Topic: Approve last week's meeting minutes
14:06:54 <LarsG> Resolved: approved last weeks minutes (NOTUC)
14:07:08 <LarsG> Topic: new attendees?
14:07:11 <annette_g> present+ annette_g
14:07:20 <LarsG> No new attendees
14:07:31 <RiccardoAlbertoni> RiccardoAlbertoni has joined #DXWG
14:07:33 <alejandra> Caroline_: new password is webexdxwg
14:07:40 <LarsG> Topic: Reports from sub-groups
14:07:47 <phila> s/Caroline_: new password is webexdxwg//
14:07:59 <MJ_Han> present+ MJ_Han
14:08:21 <LarsG> No reports from sub-groups
14:08:40 <LarsG> kcoyle: wants to know if DCAT group has met
14:09:10 <LarsG> alejandra: DCAT has exchanged a few emails but hasn't met yet.
14:09:11 <nandana> present+ nandana
14:09:14 <phila> q+
14:09:16 <LarsG> ... will keep us posted
14:09:30 <RiccardoAlbertoni> present+ RiccardoAlbertoni
14:09:35 <LarsG> kcoyle: so far we have approved three use cases
14:09:38 <phila> q-
14:09:48 <LarsG> ... today we discuss are modelling temporal coverage,
14:09:58 <LarsG> ... modelling spatial coverage
14:10:07 <LarsG> ... and data access restrictions.
14:10:15 <kcoyle> https://www.w3.org/2017/dxwg/wiki/Use_Case_Working_Space#Modeling_temporal_coverage
14:10:49 <LarsG> temporal coverage submitted by Andrea (who isn't here)
14:10:50 <SimonCox> Make sure to use https://www.w3.org/TR/owl-time/ :-)
14:11:13 <LarsG> ... DCAT say to use dct:temporal
14:11:23 <kcoyle> q?
14:11:26 <LarsG> ... SimonCox proposes owl-time
14:11:36 <Makx> q+
14:11:38 <alejandra> Can we add to the links the following ones: http://github.com/biocaddie/WG3-MetadataSpecifications
14:11:46 <achille_zappa> present+ achille_zappa
14:11:46 <alejandra> and https://developers.google.com/search/docs/data-types/datasets
14:11:53 <phila> q?
14:11:56 <SimonCox> https://www.w3.org/TR/owl-time/#time:hasEnd etc
14:12:03 <alejandra> where also temporal coverage have been considered
14:12:11 <LarsG> kcoyle: If people have more links, they can add that to the wiki page
14:12:16 <alejandra> q+
14:12:25 <kcoyle> ack m
14:12:28 <roba_> roba_ has joined #dxwg
14:12:41 <roba_> present+ Rob Atkinson
14:12:56 <LarsG> Makx: reacting to Andrea ADMS and DCAT-AP use schema:start and schema:end since owl-time looked too complicated
14:13:01 <phila> ack m
14:13:05 <phila> ack a
14:13:06 <kcoyle> ack a
14:13:08 <LarsG> ... many European data portals use that, too
14:13:14 <roba_> * online for next 30 mins
14:13:26 <LarsG> alejandra: Question about process: When I have comments or links
14:13:36 <Makx> q+
14:13:53 <LarsG> ... can I modify the UC directly in the Wiki or should it go through the UC editors?
14:14:02 <Jaroslav_Pullmann> Jaroslav_Pullmann has joined #dxwg
14:14:02 <mathieu> owl-time seems complicated but there can be more complex things to represent than just start and end dates
14:14:10 <Jaroslav_Pullmann> present+
14:14:32 <Jaroslav_Pullmann> I am sorry for being late, could you please pass me the new pwd?
14:14:43 <roba_> +1 to put to working use cases document.
14:14:45 <LarsG> Present__Ixchel: If it's something that hasn't been discussed yet, just add it so that it's there for the meeting. Otherwise send an email to the editors
14:14:51 <Jaroslav_Pullmann> thanks!
14:14:53 <LarsG> ... and they'll add it
14:14:55 <kcoyle> q?
14:15:03 <phila> s/I am sorry for being late, could you please pass me the new pwd?//
14:15:10 <LarsG> alejandra: Agrees with that process.
14:15:41 <LarsG> kcoyle: From XXX there is a link to the working space
14:16:14 <LarsG> kcoyle: there is no way to see which UCs we have discussed just by looking at the list
14:16:29 <phila> regrets+ Martin
14:16:44 <LarsG> Roba: plans to put a link to the consolidate use case
14:16:51 <LarsG> ... status is more complicated
14:17:02 <LarsG> ... some things may be solved, others not
14:17:17 <Jaroslav_Pullmann> q+
14:17:26 <LarsG> ... e. g. profile might be discussed but discovery of profiles not
14:17:45 <LarsG> kcoyle: You can split the UCs to have more atomic parts.
14:17:52 <phila> ack ma
14:17:52 <kcoyle> ack M
14:17:57 <LarsG> ... important for people to see what is resolved
14:18:37 <alejandra> I think that is good
14:18:46 <alejandra> to add things to use cases that have not been discussed
14:18:55 <LarsG> Makx: has put something in alejandra's UC. Has marked with his name but wants to know if that's OK
14:19:08 <LarsG> Present__Ixchel: Good idea.
14:19:22 <kcoyle> q?
14:19:23 <alejandra> I agree on pinging the original author
14:19:25 <LarsG> ... If you want the orig author to look at it again, send a mail to the author
14:19:34 <LarsG> ... and the list
14:19:47 <LarsG> Jaroslav_Pullmann: Finds Makx's approach a good idea.
14:19:56 <LarsG> ... People can use the comment section
14:20:18 <LarsG> ... Status intended to be used as a progress indicator
14:20:32 <LarsG> ... has started to create a mind map for the UC (has lost overview)
14:20:45 <LarsG> ... prepares a graphical view of the UCs
14:20:50 <LarsG> ... will share the URL
14:20:55 <kcoyle> q?
14:21:01 <kcoyle> ack
14:21:18 <kcoyle> ack J
14:21:35 <LarsG> kcoyle: should we mark this UC as good, can we vote?
14:21:42 <phila> -> https://www.w3.org/2017/dxwg/wiki/Use_Case_Working_Space#Modeling_temporal_coverage
14:21:48 <annette_g> q+
14:22:01 <phila> -> https://www.w3.org/2017/dxwg/wiki/Use_Case_Working_Space#Modeling_temporal_coverage Modelling Temporal Coverage
14:22:14 <kcoyle> https://www.w3.org/2017/dxwg/wiki/Use_Case_Working_Space#Modeling_temporal_coverage
14:22:21 <alejandra> q+
14:22:35 <LarsG> ... question is: Is it a valid UC that reflects requirements?
14:22:41 <SimonCox> q+
14:22:42 <phila> q+
14:22:46 <roba_> q+
14:22:52 <phila> q-
14:22:53 <kcoyle> ack annette_g
14:22:59 <LarsG> annette_g: There are more complicated cases
14:23:08 <alejandra> q-
14:23:28 <kcoyle> ack alejandra
14:23:46 <LarsG> ... they should be expanded through discussion
14:23:48 <kcoyle> ack SimonCox
14:24:00 <LarsG> alejandra: Edge cases not so important
14:24:16 <phila> q+
14:24:32 <LarsG> SimonCox: Title is wrong. More about serialisation (how to serialise beginning and end)
14:24:41 <roba_> modelling is covered by scope of http://w3c.github.io/sdw/qb4st/
14:25:25 <LarsG> ... the description points out that in DCAT a URI is used to describe the time. That is considered cumbersome
14:25:27 <Jaroslav_Pullmann> q+
14:25:39 <LarsG> ... it's about the representation, not the content
14:25:46 <LarsG> ... per se
14:26:05 <LarsG> ... that is an old problem, when the issue is about modelling and when about syntax/representation
14:26:19 <LarsG> kcoyle: Suggests to change the title
14:26:29 <kcoyle> ack roba_
14:26:48 <phila> q-
14:27:00 <LarsG> roba_: It's neither syntax nor modelling, but more about a summary: DCAT proposes simplified view. Author might
14:27:14 <LarsG> ... be simple, but provenance more deeply modelled
14:27:45 <Present__Ixchel> q+
14:27:49 <kcoyle> ack J
14:27:52 <LarsG> ... spatio-temporal extent can be done through QB4ST as begun in SDW
14:28:22 <LarsG> Jaroslav_Pullmann: agrees. This is more about representation (date format) and might break down into simple properties
14:28:32 <LarsG> ... part of an overall modelling context
14:29:01 <kcoyle> q?
14:29:03 <alejandra> +q
14:29:08 <LarsG> ... and that way put into a bigger relation
14:29:55 <LarsG> Present__Ixchel: speaking from the user perspective. It's about understanding the different kind of temporal coverage. E. g. start and end of
14:30:30 <kcoyle> q?
14:30:31 <SimonCox> q+
14:30:34 <LarsG> ... data acquisition. It's about bringing data together using their temporal contexts
14:30:39 <kcoyle> ack Present__Ixchel
14:31:20 <SimonCox> q-
14:31:25 <phila> ack a
14:31:27 <Makx> q+
14:31:38 <LarsG> alejandra: Agrees. We also need to discuss the capabilities of DCAT. Obvious cases are dataset creation and modification. But also acceptance on DataCite.
14:31:40 <phila> +1 to alejandra I was going to same something similar
14:31:42 <Jaroslav_Pullmann> q+
14:31:54 <LarsG> ... We need a very flexible way to handle different kinds of dates
14:32:01 <kcoyle> ack Makx
14:32:58 <LarsG> Makx: Wonders if it's useful to change the scope of a UC. The UC builds on a real need and is a simple requirement.
14:33:14 <LarsG> ... There are also a wider issue of modelling temporal aspects
14:33:15 <kcoyle> q?
14:33:19 <LarsG> ... but not in this UC
14:33:23 <Thomas> Agreed, Makx
14:33:38 <kcoyle> ack J
14:33:45 <LarsG> Jaroslav_Pullmann: relevance of the data is also important when searching for data in a catalogue.
14:33:58 <LarsG> ... Some dates are fixed (distribution etc.).
14:34:16 <LarsG> ... DCAT already has the catalogue record element for such things.
14:34:37 <LarsG> ... Makx's focus is the temporal data itself, not of the dataset
14:34:47 <LarsG> kcoyle: Do we need another UC?
14:34:55 <SimonCox> types of dates - will it be a closed list?
14:34:56 <LarsG> Jaroslav_Pullmann: Yes, maybe a meta-UC
14:35:05 <roba_> q+
14:35:27 <mathieu> q+
14:35:33 <LarsG> kcoyle: There is  a problem putting too much into a single UC
14:35:41 <LarsG> ... better to have simple specific UCs
14:35:47 <LarsG> ... Who can do that?
14:36:16 <LarsG> alejandra: DataCite has specific types of dates.
14:36:21 <Jaroslav_Pullmann> q+
14:36:34 <LarsG> ... that's an existing approach we can follow
14:36:50 <LarsG> ... E. g. when the data was collected. That goes into processes
14:37:05 <kcoyle> q?
14:37:06 <Makx> keep this one as it is, please
14:37:13 <riccardoAlbertoni> riccardoAlbertoni has joined #dxwg
14:38:06 <mathieu> q-
14:38:13 <kcoyle> ack roba_
14:38:21 <LarsG> roba_: This UC is about what we want to put into simple properties in DCAT. Should have a simple model.
14:38:31 <LarsG> ... We probably don't need another UC for that
14:38:51 <LarsG> ... but should have one simple UC (as a meta-UC) and one more deeply into modelling
14:39:17 <kcoyle> q?
14:39:22 <LarsG> ... We can add another UC to the working space and map that to the existing
14:39:26 <riccardoAlbertoni> +1 to kcoyle  "adding further use cases on time issues" and keep this uc simple.
14:39:40 <LarsG> Jaroslav_Pullmann: Would this be a UC like "temporal aspects in DCAT"?
14:39:59 <LarsG> ... and then bring everything temporal into that
14:40:12 <LarsG> kcoyle: we shouldn't be too abstract
14:40:28 <Makx> +1 to keeping things practical
14:40:31 <LarsG> ... when we look at UCs at a high level they have much in common
14:40:41 <LarsG> ... but we need to keep it practical
14:41:18 <LarsG> Jaroslav_Pullmann: thought we could have one for all temporal dimensions in DCAT (API availability) all rooted in one meta-UC
14:41:42 <LarsG> kcoyle: Jaroslav_Pullmann shouldn't hesitate to create one if needed
14:42:00 <Jaroslav_Pullmann> q+
14:42:02 <Makx> I vote for keeping it
14:42:03 <LarsG> kcoyle: shall we edit the UC first or can we vote directly?
14:42:09 <roba_> q+
14:42:17 <annette_g> +1 for keeping it but adding what's missing
14:42:21 <kcoyle> ack Jaroslav_Pullmann
14:42:29 <LarsG> Jaroslav_Pullmann: agrees with Makx that we should edit the UC first
14:42:34 <Makx> what is missing?
14:42:47 <roba_> agree with keeping it but rename it - its not modelling..
14:43:04 <roba_> q-
14:43:08 <kcoyle> PROPOSE: accept ID29 and edit it to be specifically about start and end dates; and modify title to remove modeling
14:43:09 <SimonCox> q+
14:43:33 <LarsG> SimonCox: does that mean start and end date of the data set (the record)?
14:43:52 <Makx> this is the data itself
14:44:11 <Makx> no this is not want the UC is about
14:44:18 <roba_> record is overloaded term..  be careful
14:44:27 <LarsG> Jaroslav_Pullmann: it's about the adding to the catalogue (the record) not the contents of the data set.
14:45:05 <Makx> q+
14:45:13 <roba_> i think we are talking about the temporal coverage of the data - but we need to narrow down the semantics - observation time or phenomemon time
14:45:17 <LarsG> SimonCox: the date of an observation is not always the same as what we are interested in (e. g. geological discovery vs. geological event)
14:45:44 <kcoyle> q?
14:45:46 <LarsG> ... there are properties for that
14:45:56 <kcoyle> acvk SimonCox
14:46:01 <kcoyle> ack SimonCox
14:46:05 <kcoyle> ack m
14:46:42 <kcoyle> PROPOSE: accept ID29 and edit it to be specifically about start and end dates of the dataset; and modify title to remove modeling
14:46:43 <alejandra> +1
14:46:46 <LarsG> Makx: wants to clarify: it's about the year the (budget) data applies to, not about when the dataset was created
14:46:52 <Jaroslav_Pullmann> q+
14:47:11 <annette_g> q+
14:47:17 <kcoyle> ack j
14:47:19 <alejandra> +q
14:47:30 <phila> s/PROPOSE:/PROPOSED:/
14:47:42 <kcoyle> ack annette_g
14:47:42 <LarsG> Jaroslav_Pullmann: So it's about the temporal context of the data (phenomenon time), not about observation time
14:47:45 <LarsG> SimonCox: Yes
14:48:16 <SimonCox> q+
14:48:17 <Thomas> q+
14:48:29 <LarsG> annette_g: Thought this would be more about deep thoughts about start and end dates. We shouldn't remove those from the UC or the discussion
14:48:43 <kcoyle> ack alejandra
14:48:50 <Makx> disagree with extending use cases too much
14:49:18 <LarsG> alejandra: the UC talks about start and end date. But when you work with time series you want intermediate points, too. That's also part of temporal coverage
14:49:24 <Makx> intermittent periods is covered because dct:coverage is repeatable
14:49:31 <LarsG> ... similar things in other UCs
14:49:39 <LarsG> kcoyle: we need more UCs on that topic
14:49:45 <kcoyle> ack Sim
14:50:12 <LarsG> SimonCox: we need to be more clear about specific requirements vs cross-domain reqs
14:50:30 <LarsG> ... [other WG had 13 different kinds of dates]
14:50:47 <LarsG> ... that was a very specialised application (weather forecasting)
14:50:57 <LarsG> ... and there might be scientific cases in the future
14:51:10 <LarsG> ... which leaves us with the dilemma that DCAT is
14:51:28 <LarsG> ... general purpose which needs to be applicable in several
14:51:50 <LarsG> ... domains but also needs to be applied to specific communities' needs
14:52:18 <annette_g> q+
14:52:47 <LarsG> ... We need to find the right balance
14:52:49 <kcoyle> ack Thomas
14:53:23 <LarsG> Thomas: doesn't think we can capture all semantics in one simple model
14:53:41 <LarsG> ... the dataset describer needs to use what works for them
14:54:11 <kcoyle> ack annette_g
14:54:17 <LarsG> ... In specialist datasets there are dates that care for phenomenon time
14:55:04 <LarsG> annette_g: we shouldn't try to make DCAT work for all scientific communities, but it should be easier to use if for the scientific community (uptake has been slow)
14:55:27 <kcoyle> PROPOSED: accept ID29 and edit it to be specifically about start and end dates of the dataset; and modify title to remove modeling
14:55:40 <Makx> +1
14:55:45 <roba_> +1
14:55:45 <SimonCox> +1
14:55:46 <annette_g> +1
14:55:46 <Caroline_> +1
14:55:47 <Thomas> +1
14:55:48 <mathieu> +1
14:55:50 <Jaroslav_Pullmann> +1
14:55:51 <achille_zappa> +1
14:55:51 <riccardoAlbertoni> +1
14:55:54 <phila> +1
14:55:57 <Dave_Browning> +1
14:56:00 <nandana> +1
14:56:11 <LarsG> +1
14:56:13 <Present__Ixchel> it's ID27
14:56:15 <alejandra> q+
14:56:19 <MJ_Han> +1
14:56:30 <kcoyle> s/29/27
14:56:34 <Present__Ixchel> +1
14:57:04 <LarsG> alejandra: if we remove modelling, does that mean that we only talk about start and end dates?
14:57:20 <alejandra> +1
14:57:24 <roba_> Can we review UC1 to see if it covers general modelling of aspects, including time and suggest improvements please
14:57:30 <LarsG> kcoyle: we can add modelling back again if necessary, but for now, yes
14:57:30 <roba_> review offline
14:57:58 <MJ_Han> In Requirements, spatial should be temporal.
14:58:03 <LarsG> kcoyle: yes, roba_ , we can do that on the list or at the Oxford F2F
14:58:40 <phila> Topic: Research Data
14:59:23 <LarsG> phila: Talked to WG chairs of RDA and then with people at CODATA (umbrella body for science unions)
14:59:40 <LarsG> ... much potential interest in this WG but also in the general
14:59:58 <LarsG> ... idea of research data as shared information on the web
15:00:10 <LarsG> ... phila plans to continue with this
15:00:32 <LarsG> ... RDA und CODATA watch this WG in order to make the web
15:00:42 <LarsG> ... a large information space
15:00:43 <annette_g> +1 exciting stuff!
15:00:48 <SimonCox> As phila mentioned, I'm involved with RDA and CODATA so will keep links intact
15:01:02 <LarsG> kcoyle: next week we'll discuss more UCs
15:01:36 <LarsG> phila: If we discuss the outputs of this group in a subgroup, keep the mailing list in the loop to have it public
15:01:40 <Caroline_> +1 to discuss in public :)
15:01:46 <Caroline_> bye! thank you!
15:01:50 <roba_> bye all
15:01:52 <annette_g> bye!
15:01:57 <riccardoAlbertoni> bye...
15:01:57 <SimonCox> good night
15:01:58 <Dave_Browning> bye
15:02:01 <Present__Ixchel> bye
15:02:08 <phila> RRSAgent, draft minutes v2
15:02:08 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/06/26-dxwg-minutes.html phila
15:02:34 <Jaroslav_Pullmann> present-
15:02:46 <kcoyle> Thanks Lars for scribing!!
15:02:54 <phila> RRSAgent, draft minutes v2
15:02:54 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/06/26-dxwg-minutes.html phila
15:45:02 <phila> RRSAgent, bye
15:45:02 <RRSAgent> I see no action items