13:58:17 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #wcag-act
13:58:17 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2017/06/19-wcag-act-irc
13:58:19 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
13:58:19 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #wcag-act
13:58:21 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be
13:58:21 <Zakim> I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot
13:58:22 <trackbot> Meeting: Accessibility Conformance Testing Teleconference
13:58:22 <trackbot> Date: 19 June 2017
13:58:25 <Wilco> agenda?
13:58:31 <Wilco> agenda+ Book and register for TPAC: Thurs-Fri is the ACT meeting
13:58:40 <Wilco> agenda+ Survey on availability for calls https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/93339/availability/
13:58:50 <Wilco> agenda+ Pull request 94 - Merge change log with version history
13:58:55 <Wilco> agenda+ ACT Review Process
13:59:00 <Wilco> agenda+ Negative tests
13:59:07 <Wilco> agenda+ Auto-WCAG Rules - create a conforming example
14:02:28 <anne_thyme> anne_thyme has joined #wcag-act
14:03:56 <Manoj> Manoj has joined #wcag-act
14:04:09 <MoeKraft> MoeKraft has joined #wcag-act
14:04:32 <Kathy> Kathy has joined #wcag-act
14:04:42 <agarrison> agarrison has joined #wcag-act
14:04:58 <agarrison> zakim, take up first
14:04:59 <Zakim> I don't understand 'take up first', agarrison
14:05:05 <shadi> scribe: Alistair
14:05:19 <shadi> scribenick: agarrison
14:05:24 <agarrison> zakim, take up next
14:05:24 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Book and register for TPAC: Thurs-Fri is the ACT meeting" taken up [from Wilco]
14:05:50 <cpandhi> cpandhi has joined #wcag-act
14:05:57 <agarrison> Shadi: TPAC meeting on Thurs / Friday for this group.
14:06:21 <agarrison> Shadi: Tech plenary is in SF in the USA.
14:06:32 <agarrison> Shadi: Please book now.
14:06:55 <agarrison> Shadi: Hope some of you will be able to attend.
14:07:03 <agarrison> zakim, take up next
14:07:03 <Zakim> agendum 2. "Survey on availability for calls https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/93339/availability/" taken up [from Wilco]
14:08:05 <agarrison> Shadi: Reminder - let us know your availability.
14:08:21 <agarrison> Shadi: Please keep it up to date.
14:08:30 <agarrison> zakim, take up next
14:08:30 <Zakim> agendum 3. "Pull request 94 - Merge change log with version history" taken up [from Wilco]
14:09:15 <shadi> https://github.com/w3c/wcag-act/pull/94
14:09:46 <shadi> https://github.com/w3c/wcag-act/pull/94/files
14:09:47 <agarrison> Shadi: Changes - versioning.
14:10:36 <agarrison> Shadi: It could have been that we more interested in moving to a change log, rather than semantic versioning.
14:12:01 <agarrison> Moe: Should be use a better adjective that hugh.
14:12:41 <agarrison> AG: Hugh should be huge.
14:12:42 <Wilco_> Wilco_ has joined #wcag-act
14:12:52 <MoeKraft> It is recommended that for significant changes, such as those that change the scope of a rule, a new rule is created and the old rule is deprecated.
14:13:03 <agarrison> Shadi: Any thoughts on this.
14:13:33 <agarrison> Shadi: Moe that looks simpler.
14:13:46 <cpandhi> + 1 to Moe's change
14:13:53 <agarrison> Shadi: Kathy - changes that Moe suggested are better.
14:15:11 <agarrison> Shadi: Alistair as you have concerns on how versioning is done, please look at that.
14:15:28 <maryjom> maryjom has joined #wcag-act
14:15:46 <agarrison> Shadi: Any other comments.
14:16:47 <agarrison> Alistair: I think the initial comment was people don't like versions to change to quickly.
14:17:41 <agarrison> Shadi: In the new concept, minor changes would be added to the change list.  But major changes would change the test number.
14:18:53 <maryjom> present+MaryJoMueller
14:19:48 <agarrison> Anne: Would a change to the rule change, by putting in a change to the process in the test, would change the number.
14:21:22 <agarrison> Alistair: But, what would happen if a person tests now, and then tests 3 months from now - and loads of ids have changed.
14:22:32 <agarrison> Wilco: If you break a rule up, then you'd have to give the sub-rules a different id.
14:22:38 <cpandhi> q+
14:22:54 <agarrison> Anne: What is an update and what is a significant change.
14:23:35 <agarrison> Anne: Wilco things only really big changes should change the id; and Shadi suggests smaller changes might change the id.
14:24:24 <agarrison> Anne: Initially the simplification is OK; but we need to be clear on when something needs a changed id number.
14:24:54 <shadi> ack ch
14:24:56 <agarrison> Anne: Tracking things over time is really important, so I wouldn't want to change ids too much.
14:24:59 <shadi> ack c
14:25:34 <agarrison> Charu: it is good to be able to have history; so we have to be clear about what would cause a significant change.
14:26:18 <agarrison> Charu: What if it was a bug fix, would that force a new id?
14:27:14 <agarrison> Shadi: We need a way of capturing changes to tests; and we need to properly understand "significant" in terms of something which would require a new id.
14:28:28 <agarrison> Wilco: It seems that that section about ids is common sense. If it comes at the cost of loosing your history.
14:28:55 <agarrison> Shadi: Sounds to me like we need more clarity in what to do.
14:29:19 <cpandhi> q
14:29:26 <agarrison> Wilco: take out the rule about create a new id if there are big changes.
14:29:28 <cpandhi> q+
14:29:37 <shadi> ack c
14:30:14 <agarrison> Charu: Issue we see in our rules.  One of complaints is, a result is changed through a bug fix.
14:30:37 <agarrison> Charu: People's reports being changed is something they don't like.
14:31:11 <agarrison> Charu: What we do is to have a rule set.  Then we release one or two rule sets per year.
14:33:34 <agarrison> Alistair: Bug fixes in tests are a good thing.
14:33:54 <MoeKraft> q+
14:34:03 <agarrison> Shadi: If you test a point x and y you don't know if the content changed; or the rule changed.
14:34:18 <agarrison> Shadi: So we need the log.
14:34:33 <shadi> ack m
14:34:39 <agarrison> Shadi: You'd need to go to the change log to see if a test has changed.
14:35:05 <MoeKraft> Significant changes, for example those that change the scope of a rule, may require the creation of a new rule and deprecation of the current rule.
14:35:07 <agarrison> Moe: Thinking about to Wilco's suggestion.  Maybe we want to soften the second paragraph.
14:35:23 <agarrison> Moe: The change is "may"
14:35:48 <agarrison> Moe: Its not prescriptive.
14:35:58 <agarrison> Shadi: Thoughts.
14:36:07 <agarrison> Wilco: I like the change.
14:37:24 <Wilco_> +1 to example
14:37:49 <cpandhi> +1 to example
14:37:55 <agarrison> Alistair: With the word "may" you would need an example.
14:38:42 <agarrison> Alistair: Example: if you split a test as you have discovered it is too broad.  The two new tests would then each get a new id, and the old broad test would be deprecated.
14:39:08 <agarrison> Shadi: Do we need an example of a minor change.
14:39:17 <agarrison> Wilco: Don't think its necessary.
14:39:49 <agarrison> Anne: When developers read through ACT framework they wanted more examples, and two examples when possible.
14:40:05 <agarrison> Anne: We would like a minor change example.
14:40:31 <agarrison> Alistair: Let the minor change example be a bug fix.
14:40:55 <agarrison> Wilco: I'll put the major and minor examples in.
14:41:12 <agarrison> Moe: Pull request added.
14:41:37 <agarrison> Shadi: Any other comments.
14:41:56 <agarrison> Shadi: Will you notify mailing lists of the changes.
14:42:10 <agarrison> zakim, take up next
14:42:10 <Zakim> agendum 4. "ACT Review Process" taken up [from Wilco]
14:42:15 <shadi> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/conformance-testing/wiki/ACT_Review_Process
14:42:32 <agarrison> Shadi: Take a moment to look through it.
14:46:10 <agarrison> Shadi: Have we all read it?
14:46:48 <agarrison> Shadi: We want enough incentives so that the community starts to review their own tests.
14:47:12 <agarrison> Shadi: You ask them to get a certain number of implementations.
14:47:54 <agarrison> Shadi: Once the contributor can show this validation, then it is easier.
14:48:12 <agarrison> Shadi: Basic idea behind this.
14:48:29 <agarrison> Shadi: What do people think?
14:48:52 <agarrison> Shadi: Is it workable, or too optimistic.
14:49:58 <agarrison> Alistair: How do people show the rule to someone who implements it.
14:50:25 <agarrison> Shadi: They would put the rule in the GitHub repo with a flag marked untested.
14:50:55 <agarrison> Shadi: You keep on updating your rule in GitHub.
14:51:12 <cpandhi> q+
14:51:15 <agarrison> Shadi: We have the rule, test cases and implementations.
14:52:45 <agarrison> Alistair: What if loads of people place rules which are similar.  How do they work together.  Then how many rules might we expect.
14:52:56 <Wilco_> On this point, what we discussed previously was that we might publish 'draft' rules that haven't been implemented in enough places yet, as a way to get that ball rolling
14:52:57 <shadi> ack c
14:53:04 <agarrison> Shadi: People would have to try to collaborate.
14:53:17 <agarrison> Charu: In GitHub we can have beta rules.
14:54:05 <agarrison> Charu: We could have loads of tests in there... there needs to be a way for people to comb through rules.
14:54:49 <agarrison> Shadi: We could weed out certain tests through formats.
14:55:39 <agarrison> Shadi: What if different companies submitted overlapping tests - they each have their reasons for having their own tests.
14:55:58 <agarrison> Shadi - discussion would have to be peer-to-peer.
14:56:17 <agarrison> Shadi: 4 more minutes.
14:56:56 <agarrison> Shadi - Let's give people more time to work through this - shall we use mailing list, GitHub.
14:57:06 <agarrison> Wilco: Let's use mailing list.
14:57:54 <agarrison> Shadi: You could help move this forward. What would incentivise you to put rules forwards.
14:59:34 <agarrison> Wilco: Worth us checking back with our colleagues.
15:00:01 <agarrison> Alistair: How do we discuss the tests on GitHub.
15:00:23 <Kathy> present+ Kathy
15:00:37 <agarrison> Shadi: Implementations would be what we'd be interested in.
15:01:06 <agarrison> Kathy: Our testing is different from the tests that aXe can run.
15:02:37 <agarrison> Shadi: Either we have a group that checks rules centrally; or you try and get people to implement your rules in other tools.
15:03:38 <shadi> trackbot, end meeting
15:03:38 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
15:03:38 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been MaryJoMueller, Kathy
15:03:46 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
15:03:46 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/06/19-wcag-act-minutes.html trackbot
15:03:47 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
15:03:47 <RRSAgent> I see no action items