IRC log of dnt on 2017-06-19

Timestamps are in UTC.

16:00:06 [RRSAgent]
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logging to
16:00:08 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs world
16:00:09 [Moneill2]
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16:00:11 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be TRACK
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Meeting: Tracking Protection Working Group Teleconference
16:00:11 [trackbot]
Date: 19 June 2017
16:00:11 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot
16:01:21 [dsinger]
present+ dsinger
16:01:24 [dsinger]
zakim, who is here?
16:01:24 [Zakim]
Present: dsinger
16:01:26 [Zakim]
On IRC I see Moneill2, RRSAgent, Zakim, fielding, dsinger, rvaneijk, hober, mkwst, hadleybeeman, adrianba, Bert, walter, trackbot
16:01:40 [dsinger]
present+ moneill
16:01:49 [dsinger]
present+ fielding
16:01:51 [Moneill2]
16:01:52 [Brendan]
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present+ rvaneijk
16:02:20 [dsinger]
present+ aleecia
16:02:36 [dsinger]
present+ brendan
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present+ vincent
16:03:57 [dsinger]
scribenick: aleecia
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16:04:41 [Brendan]
Brendan can scribe
16:04:48 [dsinger]
scribenick: brendan
16:05:01 [Brendan]
dsinger - we have 2 things on agenda
16:05:05 [Brendan]
Resolution 22
16:05:09 [Brendan]
Final CTA
16:05:17 [Brendan]
Anything else to discuss?
16:05:24 [Brendan]
What to do next?
16:05:33 [Brendan]
Yes - Direct to recommendation.
16:05:46 [dsinger]
16:05:52 [Brendan]
3 rd topic - what to do next to get to recommendation.
16:05:58 [dsinger]
16:06:08 [Brendan]
Dsinger: In the mail you will see 2 copies of the mail from Mattias.
16:06:20 [fielding]
16:06:25 [Brendan]
Is there any follow-up to do. General consensus offline seems to be "we can live with it".
16:06:42 [wileys]
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16:06:42 [Brendan]
Fielding: OK with general direction, but need to make words better
16:06:56 [rvaneijk]
16:07:00 [Brendan]
Fielding will take action to massage the language.
16:07:27 [Brendan]
Any other editorial comments?
16:07:42 [fielding]
yes, that can move to privacy -- the pull request is fine
16:07:44 [Brendan]
rvaneijk - section 7 is fingerprinting, should it be moved to privacy?
16:08:33 [rvaneijk]
ack rvaneijk
16:08:36 [Brendan]
Dsigner: Consensus. OK, we'll move it.
16:08:43 [wileys]
What was just moved to security and privacy considerations? UGEs?
16:09:03 [rvaneijk]
@wileys: 7.10 fingerprinting risk
16:09:23 [Brendan]
Also we were going to change the API names?
16:09:40 [Brendan]
Mike: If we are going to change the names, then we need to have a discussion to take into account the MS implementation.
16:10:05 [Brendan]
The only change is confirm, the others were not existing.
16:10:29 [Brendan]
If we wanted to add a line of text, the confirm can return the results immediately, to support legacy implementation.
16:11:00 [Brendan]
dsinger: Roy, can you do an analysis?
16:11:24 [Brendan]
Fielding: it's relatively easy to replace APIs, it's much harder to replace.
16:11:58 [Brendan]
Mike: The implementation is different, because it's started at a different time.
16:12:25 [Brendan]
Do we have agreement to change names? Fielding: There was discussion on issue tracker, there was consensus to change.
16:12:36 [wileys]
With the understanding it breaks the MS IE implementation
16:12:43 [Brendan]
dsinger: Roy, make the changes.
16:13:03 [Brendan]
Fielding: Draft will be posted with all the changes, so that's cook.
16:13:12 [dsinger]
and if there are open technical questions, Roy will raise with the list
16:13:27 [Brendan]
dsinger: any other editorial or pending issues?
16:13:58 [Brendan]
Aleecia: I don't want to hold up the draft, but there's open issue on "should" vs "may"
16:14:10 [fwagner]
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16:14:25 [Brendan]
Dsinger: which specific issue?
16:14:40 [fielding]
16:15:07 [Brendan]
Aleecia: Has submitted text multiple times. This might be it.
16:15:17 [Brendan]
Aleecia: Confirmed, it's issue 35.
16:15:39 [Brendan]
6.5.8 "should" provide policy.
16:15:51 [dsinger]
Thread starting
16:15:54 [Brendan]
"should inform what changes between DNT 0 and DNT 1"
16:16:02 [wileys]
Still stand by MAY as the appropriate path as not legal jurisdictions require this element
16:16:14 [wileys]
not “all” legal jurisdictions
16:16:22 [dsinger]
sorry, thread starts
16:16:32 [Brendan]
Aleecia: I can live with what these as not diff, but prefer requiring diff.
16:16:44 [wileys]
It is supposed to be!
16:16:57 [Brendan]
dsinger - is UA responsible for UX? I thought it was site.
16:17:06 [Brendan]
Aleecia: Agree - it should be site not UA.
16:17:20 [wileys]
16:17:21 [Brendan]
Fielding: I think that this is non-blocking, discussing it in parallel is fine.
16:17:46 [Brendan]
Aleecia: No harm in discussing it now?
16:18:35 [Brendan]
Aleecia: If I'm willing to give up "Should" and go for "May", is that fine?
16:18:39 [dsinger]
Shane’s response:
16:18:53 [Brendan]
Fielding: I can include that, not in any huge rush.
16:19:06 [dsinger]
ack w
16:19:40 [Brendan]
wileys: Thanks for linking my response. Some is appropriate in California, but rest of the world may differ.
16:20:03 [Brendan]
I still side on the "may" instead of "should" to account for varying global legal environments.
16:20:19 [Brendan]
Aleectia: I backed off "Must" because of IoT, where there's no UI.
16:20:55 [wileys]
This language belongs in a compliance document - not the TPE
16:20:56 [Brendan]
Discussion on Informed Consent.
16:20:59 [dsinger]
Roy will integrate all of Issue 35 that is editorial; continued discussion of SHOULD vs. MAY
16:21:14 [wileys]
Don’t disagree with the discussion - the TPE is just the wrong place for this
16:22:16 [Brendan]
wileys: The use of "should" is a compliance decision. It shouldn't be in TPE. The use of "may" is neutral, and enables the scenario in varying jurisdictions.
16:22:29 [fielding]
16:22:30 [Brendan]
The technical specification is not where we need to dictate compliance.
16:22:50 [Brendan]
Aleecia: Since technical spec is the only one we have, it's the only place we can put it.
16:22:51 [wileys]
16:23:10 [Brendan]
Mike: Can't see why there's objection to this.
16:23:15 [dsinger]
16:23:19 [fielding]
I just wanted to say that we could add examples and an explanation of how to use the compliance array.
16:23:22 [dsinger]
ack f
16:23:38 [Brendan]
Fielding: We could add examples on how people can use the compliance array.
16:23:58 [Brendan]
The reason for not making it normative is to constrain the space in which compliance would be implemented.
16:24:12 [Brendan]
We'd have to agree to one universal standard. This isn't the way of the world.
16:24:35 [Brendan]
discussion about examples / best practices.
16:24:37 [dsinger]
ack w
16:25:16 [Brendan]
wileys: we do still have a compliance doc, but we've decided not to go forward with.
16:25:37 [Brendan]
dsinger: Wileys - can you make example?
16:25:52 [Brendan]
Wileys: Maybe aleecia: Aleecia, you OK with making this examples?
16:26:00 [Brendan]
Aleecia: Yeah. I can live with.
16:26:15 [Brendan]
Dsigner: Please work to make normative may and non-normative examples?
16:26:35 [rvaneijk]
16:27:03 [Brendan]
Wileys: OK with "may" in the normative text, and non-normative examples.
16:27:58 [Brendan]
Fielding: It's already possible to include a compliance spec. Anyone can provide a compliance spec.
16:28:18 [Brendan]
dsigner: Aleecia, wileys, fielding - put something together?
16:28:41 [wileys]
That text should be placed in the compliance and scope document
16:28:59 [dsinger]
let’s try changing SHOULD to MAY, leave UX with the site not UA, add an example
16:29:00 [Brendan]
Aleecia - I was imagining two changes to text in 35: "should" to "may" and change the party responsible from UA to Site.
16:29:11 [wileys]
Attempts to pull C&SD text into the TPE doesn’t make sense
16:29:13 [Brendan]
Aleecia: plus add example.
16:29:36 [Brendan]
dsigner: while this is redundant, it's probably useful.
16:29:37 [wileys]
Examples of how the Compliance array is a great way to go in a technical specification
16:30:17 [Brendan]
dsinger: If this is done in a day or so, we can probably include by end of week
16:30:30 [Brendan]
dsigner: Make the incantations!
16:30:33 [rvaneijk]
from aleecia to everyone: Scribing here, from aleecia to everyone: Roy: ok with general direction but would like to fix working. from aleecia to everyone: David: you'll take the action to polish? from aleecia to everyone: Roy: yes from aleecia to everyone: ... will get that done this week. from aleecia to everyone: David: other things needed before 2nd CR? from aleecia to everyone: Rob: editorial, section on fingering printing could move from section 7.1[CUT]
16:31:35 [wileys]
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16:31:50 [Brendan]
Aleecia notes:
16:32:08 [Brendan]
to be sent via email.
16:48:45 [fielding]
Aleecia's notes are are at
16:48:55 [fielding]
zakim, list attendees
16:48:55 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been dsinger, moneill, fielding, rvaneijk, aleecia, brendan, vincent
16:49:29 [fielding]
present+ wiley
16:50:08 [fielding]
zakim, list attendees
16:50:08 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been dsinger, moneill, fielding, rvaneijk, aleecia, brendan, vincent, wiley
16:50:40 [fielding]
trackbot, end meeting
16:50:40 [trackbot]
Zakim, list attendees
16:50:40 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been dsinger, moneill, fielding, rvaneijk, aleecia, brendan, vincent, wiley
16:50:48 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, please draft minutes
16:50:48 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate trackbot
16:50:49 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, bye
16:50:49 [RRSAgent]
I see no action items