13:45:13 RRSAgent has joined #dxwg 13:45:13 logging to http://www.w3.org/2017/06/05-dxwg-irc 13:45:28 Zakim has joined #dxwg 13:51:42 mbruemmer has joined #dxwg 13:52:19 mbruemmer has joined #dxwg 13:52:39 present__ixchel has joined #dxwg 13:53:27 present__ixchel has left #dxwg 13:54:18 present_Ixchel has joined #dxwg 13:55:38 Thomas has joined #dxwg 13:55:44 alejandra has joined #dxwg 13:55:49 Makx_Dekkers_ has joined #dxwg 13:56:21 SimonCox has joined #dxwg 13:56:29 chile has joined #dxwg 13:56:51 Jaroslav_Pullmann has joined #dxwg 13:56:52 Present+ Thomas 13:56:53 present+ chile 13:57:04 +Jaroslav_Pullmann 13:57:07 present+ mbruemmer 13:57:24 RubenVerborgh has joined #dxwg 13:57:29 present+ 13:57:59 Don't forget your nick, ruben :-) 13:58:02 present+ 13:58:12 @Thomas defaults to myself, normally 13:58:21 zakim, who is here? 13:58:21 Present: Thomas, chile, Jaroslav_Pullmann, mbruemmer, RubenVerborgh, kcoyle 13:58:23 On IRC I see RubenVerborgh, Jaroslav_Pullmann, chile, SimonCox, Makx_Dekkers_, alejandra, Thomas, present_Ixchel, mbruemmer, Zakim, RRSAgent, Colleen, kcoyle, nandana, phila, 13:58:23 ... rhiaro, trackbot 13:58:26 present+ 13:58:28 Chair: Karen Coyle 13:58:34 present- rhiaro 13:58:46 Ok; still somewhat new to this irc t hing 13:59:12 RRSAgent, make logs public 13:59:20 present+ alejandra 13:59:21 PWinstanley has joined #dxwg 13:59:24 present+ PWinstanley 13:59:24 chair: Karen 13:59:44 agenda: https://www.w3.org/2017/dxwg/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2017.06.05 13:59:58 roba has joined #dxwg 14:00:16 Australia on holiday next monday 14:00:39 but it is now tuesday here 14:00:39 present+ 14:00:49 MJ_Han has joined #dxwg 14:00:57 regrets+ Lars, Andrea, Newton, Caroline 14:01:25 scribe: Alejandra 14:01:29 scribeNick: alejandra 14:01:56 RRSAgent, draft minutes v2 14:01:56 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/06/05-dxwg-minutes.html phila 14:02:04 Topic: Preliminaries 14:02:07 First agenda item: approve meetings from last time 14:02:14 annette_g has joined #dxwg 14:02:20 No corrections 14:02:23 No additions / corrections 14:02:24 Present+ annette_g 14:02:33 RESOLUTION: Last week's minutes approved 14:03:16 Kcoyle: we will spend some time on discussing how we are going to organise ourselves 14:03:24 Topic: DCAT Editors 14:03:48 present+MJ_Han 14:03:53 kcoyle: discussing role of editors and contributors 14:04:33 I am up for editor 14:04:35 I'd like to be an editor 14:04:38 -> https://www.w3.org/TR/dwbp/ Data on the Web Best Practices had 3 editors and *loads* of contributors 14:04:40 Editor of what? 14:04:49 DCAT editor 14:04:52 DCAT, RubenVerborgh 14:05:17 phila has changed the topic to: DXWG Weekly telco 14:05:20 RiccardoAlbertoni has joined #DXWG 14:05:25 I'd be willing to paricipate also 14:05:29 *sorry, missed "topic", sounded more general* 14:05:33 As an editor 14:05:40 I can help edit - have done one before 14:06:30 Can help with DCAT too. 14:06:32 erics has joined #dxwg 14:07:03 4 editors is an OK number 14:07:36 potential editors: alejandra, thomas, Simon, Peter 14:08:31 RESOLUTION: DCAT editors will be Peter, Thomas, Simon, Alejandra 14:08:38 +1 14:08:41 +1 14:08:49 +1 14:08:50 +1 14:08:50 +1 14:08:52 RRSAgent, draft minutes v2 14:08:52 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/06/05-dxwg-minutes.html phila 14:08:59 +1 14:09:02 +1 14:09:04 +1 14:09:04 +1 14:09:15 meeting: DXWG Weekly Telco 14:09:19 RRSAgent, draft minutes v2 14:09:19 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/06/05-dxwg-minutes.html phila 14:09:42 https://docs.google.com/document/d/1z8UVjMEPoqp69ZHXk6asY6tCHHECglk4-3Lznd5dxS0/ 14:09:53 kcoyle: Next discussion - the proposal of use case template 14:10:23 kcoyle: another proposal on the reorganization of what the use cases are about and what the tasks are 14:10:26 present+ RiccardoAlbertoni 14:10:57 kcoyle: many use cases and requirements that people are considering DCAT requirements but may be better as requirements for Application Profiles 14:11:11 q+ 14:11:21 ack Jaroslav_Pullmann 14:11:48 Jaroslav_Pullmann: discussing the proposal for the use cases structures 14:12:22 Jaroslav_Pullmann: status of use cases: new, open, stable, closed 14:12:58 Jaroslav_Pullmann: describe the problem statement - current situation and missing aspect that should be considered and what is the motivation for an improvement 14:13:06 Jaroslav_Pullmann: optinally, consider existing approaches 14:13:41 Jaroslav_Pullmann: next mandatory part is 'requirements' 14:14:52 q+ 14:15:00 ack RubenVerborgh 14:15:02 kcoyle: continues discussing the template structure - links to related use cases 14:15:11 RubenVerborgh: organization might require some tweaking 14:15:16 q+ 14:15:23 RubenVerborgh: separation might be artificial in some cases 14:15:33 RubenVerborgh: as some use cases are cross-cutting 14:15:49 in particular: overlap between DCAT distribution and profiles / conneg 14:16:08 seems I am muted, give me a second 14:17:18 kcoyle: Now discussing re-organization 14:18:59 My only pledge was to keep URLs to use cases persistent. 14:19:06 Jaroslav_Pullmann: did we reach an agreement on extending the template? 14:19:10 kcoyle: yes 14:19:35 Jaroslav_Pullmann: it will often be the case that we will need to close duplicate use cases and continue one of the threads 14:19:39 q+ 14:19:41 *ah woops, sorry for jumping ahead, thought that was settled* 14:19:54 +1 to having less repetition 14:20:03 kcoyle: moving to reorganization section 14:20:21 Jaroslav_Pullmann: Main category are deliverables - 3 deliverables at first 14:20:30 Jaroslav_Pullmann: DCAT 1.1. core 14:21:16 Jaroslav_Pullmann: catalog, datasets, distributions (representations of either static or dynamic datasets) - I agree that some elements are cross-cutting 14:21:43 Jaroslav_Pullmann: conneg and distribution may overlap 14:21:43 q+ 14:21:50 q? 14:21:50 q+ 14:21:57 Jaroslav_Pullmann: so, we need to discuss the focus of the use case 14:22:16 ack a 14:22:45 q+ 14:22:52 alejandra: if we have aspects from the use case, for a different section, should we add a new one? 14:22:54 q+ 14:23:16 ack erics 14:23:18 kcoyle: Editors will be able to decide this after they have a look at the document 14:23:23 ack Jaroslav_Pullmann 14:24:12 erics: I had a similar question - in DWBP there were cross-cutting use cases, so perhaps consider a section with these cross-cutting use cases across the major focus areas 14:24:14 ack SimonCox 14:24:29 roba has joined #dxwg 14:24:35 SimonCox: I'd like to pull us back to the Use cases - the status flags are unclear to me 14:24:52 SimonCox: the use cases should yield requirements 14:24:53 q+ 14:25:07 SimonCox: does the status mean that the requirement has been satisfied? 14:25:41 q? 14:25:51 roba: we need to decide if we put up the use cases and then the WG decides if they are in scope 14:26:06 roba: we also need to deal with the duplication 14:26:17 roba: stable means that those are the ones that we pay attention to 14:26:39 roba:I suggest we put cross-cutting use cases first 14:26:47 The easiest way to detect duplication is through the requirments 14:26:47 roba: and then we deal with the others later 14:26:52 ack Thomas 14:27:17 +q to say not sure that duplication should be avoided at this stage 14:27:40 SimonCox: to identify the duplications we need to look at the requirements level, which is what it needs to be carried through 14:27:46 Jaroslav_Pullmann has joined #dxwg 14:27:54 +Jaroslav_Pullmann 14:28:05 sorry I was offline for a moment 14:28:15 q+ 14:28:16 roba: we need to work out how much the group expects the editor to identify the duplication or we go through each use case one by one and the group decides 14:28:22 I'd also prefer to gather use cases without considering duplication, and deal with de-duplication later. The requirements are what matter. 14:28:33 q? 14:28:50 Thomas: I was wondering if we are not focusing too much now on the use cases 14:29:05 Thomas: but we need to make sure in the future that the requirements are described through the use cases 14:29:28 q? 14:29:35 ack annette_g 14:29:56 I am seeing use cases that are similar to what I want to contribute, but I still would want to describe my use case. Otherwise, would I need to negotiate with the author of the similar use case to merge? 14:30:01 annette_g: we've got the use cases divided into 3 deliverables, but it seems to me that Profile/Conneg use cases might be a single group 14:30:29 +1 to tags (to an extent, they are already present now) 14:30:32 q? 14:30:35 this would address my concerns on cross-cutting 14:30:45 we cannot pretend that conneg is entirely separate from the rest 14:30:46 annette_g: but maybe grouping is not the way to do it - I tend to maximise the use cases that are considered for a single deliverable 14:30:50 q- 14:30:52 +1 to grouping/tagging requirements cf. grouping UCs 14:30:56 q? 14:31:01 q+ 14:31:10 ack r 14:31:10 RiccardoAlbertoni, you wanted to say not sure that duplication should be avoided at this stage 14:31:25 RiccardoAlbertoni: I am not sure why we are focusing so much at duplication at this stage, as it can be very good now and it can be solved later one 14:31:30 RiccardoAlbertoni: later on 14:31:41 RiccardoAlbertoni: if we have more use cases, we have better ground for the requirements 14:31:46 +1 to riccardo 14:31:49 q? 14:31:51 +1 to RiccardoAlbertoni comment about multiple forms of use cases 14:31:52 +1 14:32:05 we can do de-duplication on the requirements 14:32:14 Jaroslav_Pullmann: we are not worried about duplication at the moment 14:32:22 phila: tx 14:32:39 s/later one/later on/ 14:33:00 q+ to talk about assumptions not in UCs 14:33:05 q? 14:33:08 s/optinally/optionally/ 14:33:11 ack Jaroslav_Pullmann 14:33:26 Jaroslav_Pullmann: we want to have focus deliverables 14:33:38 Jaroslav_Pullmann: cross-referencing is done via text 14:33:55 ack Thomas 14:34:14 Thomas: we shouldn't shift the problem to text managing 14:34:15 q+ 14:34:39 ack phila 14:34:39 phila, you wanted to talk about assumptions not in UCs 14:35:21 phila: UCs documents usually forget to say 'we are assuming X, etc' - we don't need to make explicit all assumptions 14:35:40 I agree - need some pragmatism. But remember that the main purpose of UC is to generate requirements. It is the requirements which must be satisfied by the technology 14:35:40 +1 for Phil 14:35:44 q? 14:35:47 ... it allows to keep the number of UCs manageable 14:35:49 ack Jaroslav_Pullmann 14:35:53 example on using tags: https://www.europeandataportal.eu/de/content/show-license 14:35:54 +1 to Simon 14:35:57 q+ 14:36:08 ack j 14:36:08 +1 to Simon 14:36:10 ack Jaroslav_Pullmann 14:36:33 Jaroslav_Pullmann: the use cases will always have multiple dimensions 14:36:46 ... refers to the example of using tags 14:37:08 ... allowing a selective view of particular use cases 14:37:09 https://www.europeandataportal.eu/de/content/show-license 14:37:24 ... we can switch on and switch off relevant use cases 14:37:59 nope 14:38:01 kcoyle: has anyone contributed their use cases? 14:38:02 no 14:38:03 No 14:38:11 I have another! 14:38:14 will do 14:38:15 kcoyle: can we get all the use cases contributed as soon as possible? 14:38:20 I have more to add too 14:38:23 didn't we set a one month deadline last week? 14:38:30 I have some more to add 14:38:31 I am sitting on five to ten of them 14:38:39 Jaroslav_Pullmann: do we have a resolution on the reorganization proposal? 14:38:45 Need to find time to write them up 14:39:13 PROPOSAL: the group will consider this reorganization of use cases 14:39:27 +1 14:39:30 +1 14:39:32 +? 14:39:35 +1 14:39:36 +1 14:39:37 -> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1z8UVjMEPoqp69ZHXk6asY6tCHHECglk4-3Lznd5dxS0/edit#heading=h.xs8j1li7rrbq 'This reorganization' 14:39:39 +1 14:39:42 +1 14:39:43 +1 14:39:43 +1 14:39:56 +1 14:40:06 +1 14:40:07 waht does 'consider' mean? 14:40:33 'we'' think about it and decide later'? 14:40:36 q+ 14:40:36 PROPOSAL: the group will accept the reorganization 14:40:54 +1 14:40:55 +1 14:40:58 +1 14:41:08 -! 14:41:13 -1 14:41:15 i guess we can look at the results and then change our minds via a new proposal :-) 14:41:17 +1 14:41:25 +1 14:41:32 ack annette_g 14:42:00 annette_g: we discussed about doing it a little different 14:42:27 annette_g: one suggestion was combining those UCs that are to do with APs 14:42:29 q+ 14:42:49 annette_g: another option is to use the tags for grouping 14:43:09 annette_g: the last grouping from the document is looking rather small 14:43:21 annette_g: it seems to me that they cross-cut those too 14:43:29 q+ 14:43:51 annette_g: I think that tags would be better 14:44:07 ack j 14:44:10 Jaroslav_Pullmann: both approaches are proposed to be applied in parallel 14:44:11 ack Jaroslav_Pullmann 14:44:42 Jaroslav_Pullmann: we have both: tags and the grouping 14:44:46 {Jaroslav_Pullmann breaking up too much?} 14:44:56 alejandra: why don't consider the 3 deliverables as other tags? 14:45:20 q? 14:45:37 one reason for reordering is to deduplicate easier - we shouldnt worry too much about final order perhaps. 14:45:58 Jaroslav_Pullmann: we want to harmonize UCs 14:46:02 ack alejandra 14:46:02 @alejandra : isn't that the same in the end? 14:46:08 ack a 14:46:24 alejandra: The separation in the 3 deliverables is in the tags 14:46:32 alejandra: one use case could be tagged with multiple tags 14:46:42 ... We can tag each UC/Req with the relevant deliverable(s) 14:46:56 RRSAgent, draft minutes v2 14:46:56 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/06/05-dxwg-minutes.html phila 14:47:33 @roba: I don't think we should try to deduplicate use cases; we can deduplicate requirements 14:47:37 Jaroslav_Pullmann: we were using the google doc for discussion, then we move this reorganization will be more apparent 14:47:52 Jaroslav_Pullmann: reorganizing this in the wiki page 14:48:03 q+ 14:48:06 kcoyle: I understood that we should use tags rather than reorganization 14:48:07 yes 14:48:08 +1 to tagging 14:48:10 ack phila 14:48:11 annette_g: yes 14:48:18 +1 to tagging 14:48:21 +1 to tagging 14:48:31 we should have a dynamic document 14:48:40 phila: there are bits where the javascript will take the requirements and generate a list of the use cases that yielded them 14:48:40 q+ 14:48:41 +1 to phila 14:48:51 phila: there are tables that are autogenerated 14:48:57 +1 to phila 14:49:22 q+ 14:49:23 +1 to phila 14:49:25 phila: it is a web document 14:50:02 q? 14:50:06 ack roba 14:50:12 tagging can help with curation 14:50:17 roba: I think we may be getting ahead of ourselves, we have a list of candidate use cases with duplication in them - group them to facilitate discussion is the first step 14:50:46 roba: if we had a technology where we could tag them and get dynamic grouping, then we could do it 14:50:50 like this? https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1EmojqR3nQo3ioj-qG_C0UeGJ0prcNZFom9th0AzaN0c/edit?usp=sharing 14:50:52 +1 to Rob 14:51:19 roba: but to organize the document to coherently look at them to reduce the number of use cases, it is the first step 14:51:26 +1 to Rob 14:51:28 +1 rob - keep it manageable and proceed for now 14:51:48 +1 to Rob 14:52:11 kcoyle: we should get all the use cases and continue the work, maybe we leave it to the UC editors to organize them 14:52:13 I'm still concerned about focus on UCs as the end point. The UCs are there to expose requirements. 14:52:50 q? 14:52:57 kcoyle: yes, requirements are at the core of what will define our work in the future 14:52:59 +1 to Simon; requirements is what we're looking for 14:53:08 ack Jaroslav_Pullmann 14:53:12 I thought we voted last time that we were given a month? 14:53:22 kcoyle: can we stop here with the discussion then? 14:53:35 Jaroslav_Pullmann: I'm convinced that we will end up with some grouping 14:53:50 Jaroslav_Pullmann: so we need some simple structure, we can go on with our work and we'll see 14:53:55 Deadline for use cases is still end of June, correct? 14:53:55 https://www.w3.org/2017/dxwg/wiki/Use_Case_Working_Space#Dataset_Versioning_Information 14:54:28 Can I reiterate request for persistent URLs for use cases? 14:54:38 kcoyle: deadline for providing the use cases is end of June 14:55:11 Before we finish, reminder for everyone to indicate their intention to attend the F2F meeting please 14:55:31 q? 14:55:33 kcoyle: discussing use case on dataset versioning 14:55:37 q+ 14:55:37 q+ 14:55:41 q+ 14:55:47 ack phila 14:55:54 +1 to the use case 14:56:14 phila: definitely support the use case, this brings me to mention that if the UC Editors find it helpful, they can look at the report of the workshop we had last year 14:56:27 +1 to the use case that covers dataset and distributions 14:56:31 ack Jaroslav_Pullmann 14:56:46 -> https://www.w3.org/2016/11/sdsvoc/report SDSVoc Workshop report 14:56:51 Jaroslav_Pullmann: I support the versioning, but there is much discussion about what a dataset is 14:57:03 q? 14:57:11 ack roba 14:57:11 Jaroslav_Pullmann: discussion on the notion of dataset, as it clarifies what is going to be versioned 14:57:25 roba: I support the use case, I have some issues on how the requirement is expressed 14:57:37 roba: I personally think that the requirement is not an extension to DCAT 14:58:03 +1 to Rob - Reqs shouldn't include solutions 14:58:04 Versioning is much more complicated than in this use case. I have one on my list that identifies at least four types of versioning. 14:58:09 roba: it sounds to me as putting the solution forward too early on 14:58:17 q? 14:58:40 kcoyle: can we accept the use case with the caveat that the requirements need to be reworded? 14:58:43 +1 to accepting a use case topic but not necessarily the content 14:58:48 q+ 14:58:54 +1 14:58:55 Jaroslav_Pullmann: we could put it in the Open state with a comment on it 14:59:03 ack annette_g 14:59:34 PROPOSED: accept UC ID4, with possible rewording of requirements 14:59:36 annette_g: just looking at the description, I didn't get the sense that we needed to do it in a specific way, but pointing out that there is some ways of dealing with it somewhere else 14:59:40 PROPOSED: Accept the versioning Use Case, modulo rewording the requirements not to include the solution https://www.w3.org/2017/dxwg/wiki/Use_Case_Working_Space#Dataset_Versioning_Information 14:59:51 roba: the requirement says 'an extension to DCAT' 15:00:09 +1 15:00:13 +1 15:00:14 +1 15:00:17 +1 15:00:18 +1 15:00:19 +1 15:00:20 +1 15:00:21 +1 15:00:24 +1 15:00:26 +1 15:00:28 +1 15:00:28 +1 15:00:37 +1 15:00:48 RESOLUTION: Accept the versioning Use Case, modulo rewording the requirements not to include the solution https://www.w3.org/2017/dxwg/wiki/Use_Case_Working_Space#Dataset_Versioning_Information 15:00:53 q+ 15:01:28 (though still not fully clear what 'Accept' means in relation to a UC) 15:01:43 apologies, I do not agree with the versioning use case 15:01:43 -> https://w3c.github.io/dxwg/dcat/ Skeleton DCAT doc alejandra SimonCox Thomas PWinstanley 15:02:01 Thx phil 15:02:06 RRSAgent, draft minutes v2 15:02:06 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/06/05-dxwg-minutes.html phila 15:02:11 thanks and bye 15:02:14 take care everyone 15:02:18 Colleen has left #dxwg 15:02:22 bye 15:02:29 bye! 15:02:37 RRSAgent, draft minutes v2 15:02:37 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/06/05-dxwg-minutes.html phila 15:02:38 bye 15:02:41 Bye 15:02:48 RRSAgent, draft minutes v2 15:02:48 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/06/05-dxwg-minutes.html phila 15:03:27 -Jaroslav_Pullmann 15:03:56 zakim, bye 15:03:56 leaving. As of this point the attendees have been Thomas, chile, Jaroslav_Pullmann, mbruemmer, RubenVerborgh, kcoyle, SimonCox, alejandra, PWinstanley, roba, annette_g, MJ_Han, 15:03:56 Zakim has left #dxwg 15:03:59 ... RiccardoAlbertoni, ? 15:04:03 RRSAgent, draft minutes v2 15:04:03 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/06/05-dxwg-minutes.html phila 15:04:27 present+ Ixchel 15:04:31 RRSAgent, draft minutes v2 15:04:31 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/06/05-dxwg-minutes.html phila