IRC log of sdwssn on 2017-05-30

Timestamps are in UTC.

19:57:44 [RRSAgent]
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19:57:44 [RRSAgent]
logging to
19:57:46 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs world
19:57:46 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #sdwssn
19:57:48 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be SDW
19:57:48 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot
19:57:49 [trackbot]
Meeting: Spatial Data on the Web Working Group Teleconference
19:57:49 [trackbot]
Date: 30 May 2017
19:57:55 [mlefranc]
*Hello, the webex link points to a webpage that says: The meeting has been cancelled. Is there a problem ?
19:58:33 [DanhLePhuoc]
I have the same problem
19:58:34 [tidoust]
tidoust has joined #sdwssn
19:58:46 [ahaller2]
Well, looks like. tidoust, can you please set up a new Webex link?
19:59:41 [ahaller2]
20:03:42 [RRSAgent]
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20:03:42 [RRSAgent]
logging to
20:03:44 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs world
20:03:47 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be SDW
20:03:47 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot
20:03:47 [trackbot]
Meeting: Spatial Data on the Web Working Group Teleconference
20:03:47 [trackbot]
Date: 30 May 2017
20:04:20 [Kjanowic]
Kjanowic has joined #sdwssn
20:04:27 [Kjanowic]
20:04:32 [tidoust]
20:04:47 [DanhLePhuoc]
present+ DanhLePhuoc
20:04:49 [Kjanowic]
I am getting 'The meeting has been cancelled' from Webex
20:04:52 [Kjanowic]
20:04:55 [Kjanowic]
20:05:25 [SimonCox]
SimonCox has joined #sdwssn
20:05:47 [ahaller2]
20:06:09 [SimonCox]
webex problem?
20:06:15 [ahaller2]
20:07:56 [ahaller2]
topic: Approving last meeting's minutes
20:08:07 [Kjanowic]
20:08:10 [SimonCox]
20:08:15 [ahaller2]
20:08:19 [mlefranc]
20:08:29 [DanhLePhuoc]
20:08:58 [ahaller2]
scribe: SimonCox
20:09:05 [ahaller2]
scribenick: SimonCox
20:09:13 [ahaller2]
topic: Patent Call
20:09:15 [SimonCox]
Patent call
20:09:40 [ahaller2]
topic: Discuss further responses to Public Review, and in response to Markus Stocker's feedback
20:10:19 [SimonCox]
Markus Stocker feedback resolved and merged.
20:10:41 [mlefranc]
20:10:47 [SimonCox]
Comments provided from Nick Car (GA) -
20:10:49 [ahaller2]
ack mlefranc
20:10:56 [SimonCox]
... re feature of interest
20:11:20 [Kjanowic]
20:11:24 [SimonCox]
mlefranc: "platform" used slightly differnet in WoT
20:11:41 [ahaller2]
ack Kjanowic
20:11:46 [SimonCox]
... WoT may need additional class
20:12:19 [SimonCox]
Kjanowic: sosa:Platform supports composition of sensors - e.g. smartphone
20:12:28 [SimonCox]
... or if need to talk about geometry
20:12:45 [ahaller2]
20:12:59 [SimonCox]
(WoT needs 'platform' for software platform)
20:13:09 [SimonCox]
20:13:53 [SimonCox]
is platform just *hardware* platform
20:14:17 [SimonCox]
mlefranc: also asking issue about sub-system
20:14:18 [Kjanowic]
20:14:19 [ahaller2]
ack SimonCox
20:14:51 [Kjanowic]
Sorry, Id did not mean that. We include virtual as well. My point was that it is not an API platform
20:14:53 [Kjanowic]
20:15:02 [ahaller2]
ack Kjanowic
20:15:40 [SimonCox]
in IT world platform=API
20:16:12 [SimonCox]
in SOSA we mean host for system, sensor, but not API platform. Not restricted to hardware
20:16:33 [DanhLePhuoc]
20:16:34 [ahaller2]
20:16:35 [Kjanowic]
20:16:37 [ahaller2]
ack DanhLePhuoc
20:16:55 [SimonCox]
ahaller2: don't need to change definition/annotation
20:17:27 [Kjanowic]
Wintel is a platform but not in our sense
20:17:51 [ahaller2]
20:18:10 [SimonCox]
DanhLePhuoc: must delegate to WoT group - they are still struggling around what is central point of modelling
20:18:23 [SimonCox]
... we don't need to change.
20:18:27 [ahaller2]
ack Kjanowic
20:18:33 [SimonCox]
... wot still a moving target
20:19:06 [SimonCox]
... haven't agreed thing-description in JSON, JSON-LD yet ... difficult to align until they have stablised
20:19:12 [mlefranc]
20:19:12 [DanhLePhuoc]
20:19:16 [Kjanowic]
20:19:21 [DanhLePhuoc]
20:20:07 [SimonCox]
topic: to explain sub-system relationships
20:20:16 [ahaller2]
ack mlefranc
20:20:40 [SimonCox]
mlefranc: best explained through examples
20:21:01 [SimonCox]
... subsystem vs ishostedby
20:21:16 [SimonCox]
... also isSampleOf and hasSubSystem
20:21:33 [SimonCox]
20:22:44 [ahaller2]
create ISSUE What is the difference between subsystem vs ishostedby
20:22:45 [Kjanowic]
20:23:06 [DanhLePhuoc]
20:23:08 [mlefranc]
ISSUE What is the difference between subsystem vs ishostedby
20:23:19 [SimonCox]
ISSUE: What is the difference between subsystem vs ishostedby
20:23:20 [trackbot]
Created ISSUE-202 - What is the difference between subsystem vs ishostedby. Please complete additional details at <>.
20:23:46 [ahaller2]
20:23:49 [ahaller2]
ack SimonCox
20:23:59 [Kjanowic]
20:26:18 [SimonCox]
isSampleOf is to get a sub-feature which is intended to be 'representative of' a bigger thing in the context of observations
20:27:37 [SimonCox]
ACTION: SimonCox to add text to explain role of sampling in SSN examples room/ice sheet
20:27:38 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-364 - Add text to explain role of sampling in ssn examples room/ice sheet [on Simon Cox - due 2017-06-06].
20:27:46 [ahaller2]
20:27:46 [Kjanowic]
This is a dangerous example btw "<Room145/east> a sosa:Sample , sosa:FeatureOfInterest , sosa:Platform ;"
20:27:49 [ahaller2]
ack Kjanowic
20:29:02 [SimonCox]
Kjanowic: danger of mixing sample/foi/platform in examples
20:29:29 [SimonCox]
... don't conflate too many things in examples as it is a rare case
20:30:04 [SimonCox]
... need to be careful about conflating sampling locations
20:30:15 [Kjanowic]
Sorry for jumping ahead
20:30:21 [ahaller2]
topic: Progress on - Extend canonical examples with coastal water body example using rdfs:subclassing and punning
20:30:23 [Kjanowic]
but it relates to sample vs system and foi
20:30:51 [Kjanowic]
yes, absolutely
20:31:06 [Kjanowic]
but the example is, correct?
20:31:17 [ahaller2]
20:31:21 [ahaller2]
ack Kjanowic
20:32:20 [ahaller2]
20:33:58 [Kjanowic]
<Room145/east> a sosa:Sample , sosa:FeatureOfInterest , sosa:Platform ; rdfs:label "East wall of room #145."@en ; rdfs:comment "This wall hosts PCB Board 1 with DHT22 temperature and humidity sensor #4578."@en ; sosa:hosts <PCBBoard1> .
20:34:31 [ahaller2]
20:34:34 [ahaller2]
ack ahaller
20:34:43 [Kjanowic]
Thanks Maxime for providing these examples
20:35:26 [Kjanowic]
yes to very simple examples
20:35:49 [SimonCox]
ahaller2: are these examples too complex? need v simple examples at beginning
20:35:51 [ahaller2]
20:36:02 [SimonCox]
... build up to these more complex examples
20:36:19 [ahaller2]
ACTION: ahaller2 to create simple SOSA example with smartphone and sensors
20:36:19 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-365 - Create simple sosa example with smartphone and sensors [on Armin Haller - due 2017-06-06].
20:36:21 [SimonCox]
20:36:44 [ahaller2]
ack SimonCox
20:37:06 [Kjanowic]
I like this idea!
20:37:33 [Kjanowic]
20:37:44 [SimonCox]
ACTION: SimonCox to add examples from O&M converted to SOSA/SSN
20:37:44 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-366 - Add examples from o&m converted to sosa/ssn [on Simon Cox - due 2017-06-06].
20:37:49 [ahaller2]
20:37:52 [ahaller2]
ack Kjanowic
20:38:22 [ahaller2]
20:39:02 [mlefranc]
20:39:06 [SimonCox]
Kjanowic: need variety in samples to capture audience
20:39:11 [ahaller2]
ack ahaller
20:39:32 [Kjanowic]
Okay, I see your point.
20:39:42 [SimonCox]
Everyone seems to agree that multiple examples are better
20:40:06 [SimonCox]
ahaller2: single example in SOSA, more in SSN?
20:40:14 [ahaller2]
20:40:16 [ahaller2]
ack mlefranc
20:40:16 [SimonCox]
... need small document in sosa
20:40:18 [SimonCox]
20:40:44 [Kjanowic]
20:40:51 [SimonCox]
are we talking about (a) examples listed against definition in ontology, or (b) fully worked instances in document
20:41:06 [ahaller2]
ack SimonCox
20:41:24 [Kjanowic]
but liked it in the end
20:42:55 [SimonCox]
mlefranc: in document - at beginning of each section included links to worked examples in later chapter
20:43:27 [SimonCox]
ahaller2: in ontology document how to use skos:example? one or many?
20:43:43 [SimonCox]
... multiple examples are helpful in ontology document
20:44:15 [SimonCox]
... wide review seems to indicate that multiiple examples useful
20:44:22 [ahaller2]
20:44:25 [ahaller2]
ack Kjanowic
20:44:29 [SimonCox]
... all worked examples should be mentioned in ontology annotations
20:45:29 [SimonCox]
Kjanowic: would be good to ensure that ontology document is balanced, similar number of skos:example for each class
20:46:09 [SimonCox]
... like mlefranc suggestion that each of us makes extended example using as may classes as possible
20:46:29 [SimonCox]
... this will verify that we share understanding of the ontology
20:46:48 [ahaller2]
ACTION: ahaller SimonCox mlefranc Kjanowic DanhLePhuoc to create one example each that uses as many classes/properties as possible
20:46:48 [trackbot]
Error finding 'ahaller'. You can review and register nicknames at <>.
20:46:53 [Kjanowic]
20:46:56 [Kjanowic]
like a scenario
20:47:04 [ahaller2]
20:47:27 [mlefranc]
20:47:41 [ahaller2]
ACTION: armin SimonCox mlefranc Kjanowic DanhLePhuoc to create one example each that uses as many classes/properties as possible
20:47:41 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-367 - Simoncox mlefranc kjanowic danhlephuoc to create one example each that uses as many classes/properties as possible [on Armin Haller - due 2017-06-06].
20:48:00 [ahaller2]
20:48:33 [SimonCox]
ahaller2: Canonical examples around water bodies?
20:48:44 [ahaller2]
20:49:24 [ahaller2]
20:49:47 [ahaller2]
topic: Progress on - Fix hierarchy in pull request around measurement capabilities
20:50:15 [SimonCox]
ahaller2: has been closed
20:51:04 [ahaller2]
20:51:17 [Kjanowic]
20:52:10 [mlefranc]
ok with the new tructure
20:52:11 [SimonCox]
ahaller2: location and forecasting was in own section, too prominent
20:52:24 [Kjanowic]
20:52:24 [SimonCox]
... but not much content?
20:52:41 [ahaller2]
ack Kjanowic
20:52:47 [SimonCox]
... now moved to subsections 6.3 6.4
20:53:39 [SimonCox]
Kjanowic: location is not part of SSN - shoudl be delegated
20:53:54 [SimonCox]
... when we didn't have any real horizontal modules
20:54:23 [SimonCox]
... suggest moving the things which are not SSN components into yet another chapter after the examples
20:54:43 [ahaller2]
20:54:47 [Kjanowic]
20:54:52 [mlefranc]
20:55:06 [SimonCox]
ahaller2: since we haven't actually modeled them as part of SOSA/SSN they need to be moved to annex?
20:56:03 [ahaller2]
ack Kjanowic
20:56:26 [SimonCox]
Kjanowic: the other horizontal modules contain axioms
20:56:45 [SimonCox]
... for forecasting and locations there is no axioms so no module
20:56:56 [SimonCox]
... rather this is how to link out to other
20:57:18 [SimonCox]
... alternatively: we could build an actual alignment
20:57:30 [SimonCox]
... its a scenario or best practice
20:57:48 [ahaller2]
20:57:50 [SimonCox]
20:57:51 [ahaller2]
ack mlefranc
20:58:20 [SimonCox]
mlefranc: should not be pushed into annex. New section "modeling issues'
20:58:21 [Kjanowic]
I like Maxime's proposal
20:58:24 [ahaller2]
20:58:26 [Kjanowic]
have a modleing section
20:58:29 [ahaller2]
ack SimonCox
20:59:18 [SimonCox]
would 'alignment module' include stub classes for geometry etc
20:59:40 [SimonCox]
Kjanowic: yes - to clarify that sensors are not geometries, etc
21:00:27 [ahaller2]
ISSUE: Location and Forecasting are not modules at the moment, either they need alignments or move to a seperate section
21:00:27 [trackbot]
Created ISSUE-203 - Location and forecasting are not modules at the moment, either they need alignments or move to a seperate section. Please complete additional details at <>.
21:00:43 [ahaller2]
21:01:13 [ahaller2]
scribe: mlefranc
21:01:17 [ahaller2]
scribenick: mlefranc
21:01:26 [Kjanowic]
I will have to leave soon so I cannot scribe
21:01:29 [ahaller2]
topic: Implementation of proposal for alignment as of for ssn:Observation
21:02:04 [mlefranc]
Kjanowic: do it for next week
21:02:33 [ahaller2]
21:02:42 [ahaller2]
21:02:48 [ahaller2]
topic: Progress on Action-356 to create a list of axioms that do not need implementation evidence
21:03:38 [SimonCox]
21:03:49 [ahaller2]
21:04:16 [mlefranc]
ahaller2: about implementation evidence: need to update ssn-usage document
21:04:48 [mlefranc]
ahaller2: plug new implementation evidence in ssn-usage directly
21:05:07 [ahaller2]
21:05:58 [mlefranc]
21:06:21 [ahaller2]
ACTION: ahaller2 update ssn-usage with links to working draft classes/properties and add new classes/properties where necessary
21:06:23 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-368 - Update ssn-usage with links to working draft classes/properties and add new classes/properties where necessary [on Armin Haller - due 2017-06-06].
21:06:32 [ahaller2]
21:06:34 [mlefranc]
mlefranc: also, draw a graph that show the dependencies (existential relations) between terms
21:06:34 [ahaller2]
ack mlefranc
21:06:37 [DanhLePhuoc]
21:07:14 [Kjanowic]
21:07:56 [DanhLePhuoc]
21:08:12 [ahaller2]
21:08:14 [ahaller2]
ack DanhLePhuocn
21:08:18 [ahaller2]
ack DanhLePhuoc
21:08:45 [Kjanowic]
Yes, this was a task we discussed sometime ago
21:09:09 [mlefranc]
DanhLePhuoc: entailment regime make that class system is instantiate whenever someone instantiates sensor (under ssn)
21:09:26 [mlefranc]
... also with owl:inverseOf
21:09:46 [Kjanowic]
21:09:48 [mlefranc]
ahaller2: reflect that in ssn-usage document ?
21:10:38 [mlefranc]
... separate section (table) for the instance that are implemented "behind entailement"
21:10:40 [ahaller2]
21:10:42 [ahaller2]
ack Kjanowic
21:11:31 [ahaller2]
21:11:54 [Kjanowic]
21:12:32 [ahaller2]
topic: Implementation Evidence Progress
21:13:05 [mlefranc]
ahaller2: @tidoust, please explain the agenda again
21:13:18 [tidoust]
-> Timeline to reach REC
21:13:20 [mlefranc]
tidoust: worried about candidate recommendation phase
21:14:00 [mlefranc]
...meant to be 15th may
21:14:23 [mlefranc]
... still have time to work on the implementation, need to finalize CR
21:14:54 [mlefranc]
... still need the "exit criteria" in the spec
21:14:56 [tidoust]
-> Exit criteria for Time Ontology
21:15:43 [mlefranc]
... also need the whole group to accept to switch to CR
21:16:10 [mlefranc]
... and how the wide reviews were handled
21:16:28 [ahaller2]
21:16:46 [mlefranc]
21:17:10 [SimonCox]
I need to leave now
21:17:24 [ahaller2]
ACTION: ahaller write Disposition of Wide Review comments in Wiki, add exit criteria to document and ask Ed for Plenary meeting to get into RecTrack
21:17:25 [trackbot]
Error finding 'ahaller'. You can review and register nicknames at <>.
21:17:29 [ahaller2]
21:17:35 [ahaller2]
ack mlefranc
21:18:28 [Kjanowic]
21:18:40 [mlefranc]
tidoust: still work on non-normative sections in document while CR
21:19:49 [ahaller2]
ack Kjanowic
21:20:07 [mlefranc]
... can work tomorrow and wait for a few days, 2 weeks, for a consensus (list and director)
21:20:17 [mlefranc]
... but it needs to happen soon
21:20:53 [mlefranc]
Kjanowic: what about use of MUST BE and SHOULD BE ?
21:21:42 [mlefranc]
... quantification, in text box, we use MUST BE
21:21:55 [mlefranc]
... the axioms and the text are not in sync
21:22:31 [mlefranc]
... only is forall quantifiers, exists is for existential quantifiers, need to check consistence in the figure
21:26:39 [ahaller2]
change axiom language, must be -> only, at least one -> exists one
21:26:43 [Kjanowic]
\forall --> only
21:26:49 [Kjanowic]
\exists --> some
21:27:08 [Kjanowic]
cardinality --> exactly 1 or at least 1 or at most 5
21:27:09 [Kjanowic]
21:28:03 [mlefranc]
Kjanowic: *discussing the wording for every axiom in the spec and the figures*
21:28:37 [mlefranc]
ahaller2: need to be done before vote tomorrow
21:29:19 [ahaller2]
action: ahaller to change language for axioms to match best practice
21:29:19 [trackbot]
Error finding 'ahaller'. You can review and register nicknames at <>.
21:29:28 [ahaller2]
action: armin to change language for axioms to match best practice
21:29:29 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-369 - Change language for axioms to match best practice [on Armin Haller - due 2017-06-06].
21:29:36 [ahaller2]
21:29:55 [ahaller2]
21:30:05 [ahaller2]
topic: Discuss ISSUE-201, Hash URIs for System Capabilities
21:30:12 [Kjanowic]
I have to leave now
21:30:35 [mlefranc]
21:30:50 [ahaller2]
ack mlefranc
21:32:48 [mlefranc]
mlefranc: why do we use slash-based URIs anyways ?
21:34:16 [ahaller2]
ACTION: mlefranc to harmonise hash URIs to slash URIs for horizontal modules
21:34:16 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-370 - Harmonise hash uris to slash uris for horizontal modules [on Maxime Lefran├žois - due 2017-06-06].
21:34:26 [ahaller2]
topic: Outreach - Requested Talks and Siemens Plugfest
21:34:39 [mlefranc]
... only important if one can get different documents from the same namespace
21:35:12 [mlefranc]
DanhLePhuoc: plan to demo something next plugfest in July
21:35:19 [ahaller2]
... next plug fest in Duesseldorf
21:35:37 [mlefranc]
... plan to use SSN for anything relevant to sensor and actuator
21:35:50 [mlefranc]
ahaller2: can use that for implementation evidence ?
21:35:53 [mlefranc]
DanhLePhuoc: yes
21:36:04 [ahaller2]
21:36:37 [ahaller2]
21:37:38 [ahaller2]
RRSAgent, make logs public
21:37:43 [ahaller2]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
21:37:44 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate ahaller2
21:44:39 [tidoust]
RRSAgent, draft minutes v2
21:44:39 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate tidoust