14:59:45 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #social
14:59:45 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2017/05/23-social-irc
14:59:47 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
14:59:47 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #social
14:59:49 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be SOCL
14:59:49 <Zakim> ok, trackbot
14:59:50 <trackbot> Meeting: Social Web Working Group Teleconference
14:59:50 <trackbot> Date: 23 May 2017
15:00:01 <sandro> KevinMarks, would you be able to join these telecons if they were two hours later?
15:00:30 <rhiaro> present+
15:02:26 <sandro> present+
15:03:00 <KevinMarks> Yes, usually. This time is usually good but I have a meeting scheduled for now
15:03:04 <aaronpk> present+
15:03:08 <ben_thatmustbeme> present+
15:03:16 <ben_thatmustbeme> cannot talk, but can listen in
15:03:40 <ben_thatmustbeme> HOORAY REC for AS2 and Micropub!!
15:03:45 <sandro> KevinMarks, I thought you'd once said this time was bad for you.   Anyway, we need to switch the time, and I'm hoping going back to old time is good for everyone
15:05:02 <rhiaro> Fine by me, I'm back in the northern hemisphere for the forseeable future
15:05:42 <cwebber2> present+
15:06:03 <ben_thatmustbeme> if i could speak, i would gladly guest chair, but alas, conference room is taken, so i'm just listening in
15:06:25 <ben_thatmustbeme> i believe evan gave regrets last week
15:06:47 <sandro> https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2017-05-23
15:07:21 <sandro> chair: sandro
15:07:26 <aaronpk> scribenick: aaronpk
15:07:42 <sandro> PROPOSED: approve
15:07:42 <sandro>     https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2017-05-16-minutes
15:08:00 <aaronpk> TOPIC: approval of last week's minutes
15:08:02 <sandro> PROPOSED: approve https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2017-05-16-minutes
15:08:37 <sandro> +1
15:08:41 <ben_thatmustbeme> and approval of minutes
15:08:48 <ajordan_> ajordan_ has joined #social
15:08:49 <cwebber2> +1
15:08:50 <aaronpk> +1
15:08:50 <sandro> noting resolution to publish not properly formatted
15:09:00 <ajordan_> present+
15:09:02 <sandro> RESOLVED: approve https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2017-05-16-minutes
15:09:12 <ben_thatmustbeme> +1 i will fix the minutes for noting resolutions
15:09:27 <aaronpk> TOPIC: charter extension / recharter update
15:09:37 <aaronpk> sandro: hopefully you all saw the email i sent
15:10:02 <Loqi> Sandro made 1 edit to [[Socialwg]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=103033&oldid=103008
15:10:03 <aaronpk> ... I originally thought w3c management would just approve an extension. That didn't turn out to be the case, they want to ask the AC.
15:10:10 <aaronpk> ... the request to the AC went out on thursday
15:10:25 <ajordan_> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-socialweb/2017May/0007.html
15:10:30 <aaronpk> ... not much response yet, hopefully you all have a few people you can ask to vote
15:10:36 <aaronpk> ... we won't know for sure for 4 weeks when the vote ends
15:10:48 <aaronpk> TOPIC: next telcon
15:11:09 <aaronpk> sandro: next call is next week
15:11:23 <aaronpk> <aaronpk> we had talked about switching to a new time
15:11:37 <aaronpk> sandro: right. i'm hesitant to suggest a brand new time, but maybe we can propose to switch back to the old time
15:11:37 <sandro> PROPOSED: switch telecon time back to old time, two hours later than this
15:11:41 <ajordan_> +1
15:11:42 <sandro> +1
15:11:42 <cwebber2> +1
15:11:54 <rhiaro> +1
15:11:55 <aaronpk> ... the motivation for this being that cwebber2 has a conflicting WG meeting at this time
15:11:58 <aaronpk> <aaronpk> +1
15:11:58 <ben_thatmustbeme> +1
15:12:21 <sandro> RESOLVED: PENDING CONFIRMATION BY EVAN and TANTEK: switch telecon time back to old time, two hours later than this
15:12:29 <cwebber2> \o/
15:12:37 <sandro> meeting next week.
15:12:40 <Loqi> strugee: tantek left you a message 3 days, 23 hours ago: looks like you found your answer re: Google and microformats? They definitely still do parse microformats, question is where they are with parsing mf2, since they have unofficially made positive remarks about it for a few years, and may just be waiting for some measure of critical mass (which has accelerated in the past 2 years)
15:12:58 <aaronpk> TOPIC: PR/REC status
15:13:16 <aaronpk> sandro: AS2 and Micropub are recommendations as of this morning! congratulations to everyone!
15:13:18 <ben_thatmustbeme> *and there was much rejoicing*
15:13:45 <aaronpk> ... thanks to amy for taking care of the publication process
15:14:00 <tantek> tantek has joined #social
15:14:16 <aaronpk> TOPIC: ActivityPub
15:14:41 <aaronpk> sandro: i should know this, but did we publish the revised CR?
15:14:45 <aaronpk> cwebber2: yep we did
15:15:04 <aaronpk> sandro: chris, how's the test suite?
15:15:05 <tantek> present+
15:15:21 <aaronpk> cwebber2: I ended up realizing there's another thing i needed to add to my implementation, the file upload process
15:15:32 <aaronpk> ... in order to do that i needed to release two libraries, the cryptography and web utilities
15:15:42 <rhiaro> cwebber - commander of yaks
15:15:47 <aaronpk> ... since i made the mistake of using a very underused language for the basis of this whole thing
15:15:56 <ben_thatmustbeme> sandro, i fixed the minutes to properly not the resolutions
15:15:56 <aaronpk> ... so things are moving along but i wish i could give a better update
15:16:42 <aaronpk> sandro: is there anything anyone else can do to help you move the test suite along?
15:16:53 <aaronpk> cwebber2: i'm not sure, i feel like i painted myself into a corner in terms of getting help
15:17:10 <aaronpk> sandro: let me ask the hard management question. does it make sense to back out of the corner and do it a different way?
15:17:17 <aaronpk> cwebber2: i don't know, why don't we approach this next week
15:17:23 <aaronpk> sandro: what stack did you use for the test systems you built?
15:18:00 <aaronpk> <aaronpk> a pretty simple PHP + MySQL stack
15:18:16 <aaronpk> chair: tantek
15:18:55 <aaronpk> tantek: so the activitypub update is that we published a new CR?
15:18:58 <aaronpk> sandro: yep
15:19:03 <aaronpk> tantek: thanks chris for making that happen
15:19:41 <aaronpk> tantek: are there any new issues since the CR that you'd like to discuss chris?
15:20:02 <Loqi> Benthatmustbeme made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2017-05-16-minutes]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=103034&oldid=102998
15:20:09 <aaronpk> cwebber2: there is one thing, but i don't feel like w'ell have a useful conversation on the call about it today
15:20:23 <aaronpk> tantek: that's fine, if you think you can prepare for a conversation next week, or even just resolve before next week that's great
15:20:34 <aaronpk> TOPIC: WebSub
15:20:45 <tantek> Zakim, who is here?
15:20:45 <Zakim> Present: rhiaro, sandro, aaronpk, ben_thatmustbeme, cwebber, ajordan_, tantek
15:20:48 <Zakim> On IRC I see tantek, ajordan_, Zakim, RRSAgent, KevinMarks, timbl, jankusanagi_, albino, ajordan, jungkees, saranix, tcit, rhiaro, ben_thatmustbeme, MMN-o, astronouth7303,
15:20:48 <Zakim> ... cwebber2, bwn, sandro, Gargron, mattl, wilkie, DenSchub, trackbot, csarven, nightpool, raucao, jet, bigbluehat, KjetilK, dwhly, bitbear, aaronpk, lambadalambda, Loqi
15:20:58 <ben_thatmustbeme> I can
15:21:03 <sandro> scribenick: sandro
15:21:06 <ben_thatmustbeme> lol
15:21:10 <cwebber2> btw, the thing that ended up slowing things down for this week wasn't actually the test suite itself, but rather the actual implementattion I was testing against, so rewriting the test suite in another language, I still would have been slow even if that hadn't happened
15:21:46 <sandro> tantek: test suite complete?
15:22:01 <sandro> aaronpk: yes, and impl report live, and mine and julien's are in there
15:22:12 <sandro> .. need to do more outreach
15:22:38 <sandro> .. and we have a resoluton to publish update, which I haven't done
15:22:54 <sandro> ... a non-clock-restarting
15:23:27 <sandro> sandro: I'm inclined to wait until near the end of June
15:24:00 <sandro> .. so we can incorporate editorial improvements
15:24:25 <sandro> tantek: last date to PR
15:24:45 <sandro> sandro: technically up through June 30
15:25:23 <sandro> sandro: we just have to vote to exit CR before the end of the charter
15:25:45 <sandro> tantek: staff could make editorial changes
15:26:27 <sandro> tantek: Who has an impl and has not submitted impl report, any of the three parts
15:26:37 <ben_thatmustbeme> I was working on a new hub, but nowhere near done yet
15:26:39 <sandro> tantek: just publish, just subscribe, just act as hub
15:26:46 <sandro> q+
15:26:54 <rhiaro> I'm here..
15:27:33 <tantek> rhiaro do you support WebSub on your site? E.g. publishing / posting notifications?
15:28:04 <sandro> sandro: I wonder about divvying up the work of testing against existing implementations
15:28:28 <sandro> sandro: If none of these things pass the test suite we're going to have a moment
15:28:43 <rhiaro> Nope
15:28:43 <rhiaro> sorry
15:28:44 <sandro> tantek: is there a way to test google's hub?
15:29:15 <sandro> q-
15:29:28 <sandro> tantek: As a publisher, it took me minutes to implement.
15:29:46 <sandro> tantek: If you're a publisher, please consider implementing it
15:30:00 <sandro> tantek: is there a swicg this week?
15:30:09 <sandro> cwebber2: Yes, as soon as it's scheduled
15:30:53 <sandro> tantek: let's bring it up there
15:31:01 <sandro> sandro: we talked about it, but okay to do more
15:31:15 <ben_thatmustbeme> I am asking on general IRC chats now too
15:31:19 <sandro> aaronpk: I see a bunch of folks have tried using the test suite, but not submitting reports
15:31:33 <sandro> sandro: I don't suppose you can tell where in the funnel they're dropping out?
15:31:37 <sandro> aaronpk: nope
15:32:41 <sandro> tantek: Any specific big hubs we want tested?  google?   github?
15:32:55 <sandro> sandro: github says PuSH compatible, but not sure
15:33:15 <sandro> tantek: I'll ask Brett and Brad if they have a moment to try the test suite
15:33:17 <aaronpk> github docs: https://developer.github.com/v3/repos/hooks/#pubsubhubbub
15:34:07 <sandro> tantek: anyone else?
15:34:21 <sandro> sandro: maybe sleuth via libraries?      mastodon, gnusocial
15:34:42 <sandro> aaronpk: new issue, but no need to discuss
15:34:56 <sandro> tantek: any sign of normative changes?
15:35:08 <sandro> aaronpk: 410 GONE would be normative, if we decided to incorporate it
15:35:23 <sandro> ... reason to leave in CR
15:35:31 <aaronpk> https://github.com/w3c/websub/issues/106
15:35:31 <Loqi> [Alkarex] #106 Suggestion: Use HTTP 410 Gone
15:35:58 <sandro> sandro: how much would this break?
15:36:45 <sandro> aaronpk: it's a new feature.  if the subscriber returns 410 Gone, the hub should delete subscription.    It wouldn't break anything, really?
15:36:51 <sandro> sandro: any harm done?
15:37:17 <sandro> aaronpk: We're in the sitation right now, if the sub is deleted, the hub keeps trying to deliver
15:37:40 <sandro> aaronpk: it's a little inefficient
15:37:55 <sandro> .. some are already doing it
15:38:20 <sandro> sandro: anything saying you must ignore 410
15:38:23 <sandro> aaronpk: no
15:38:56 <sandro> sandro: it's kind of naturally a part of web architecure
15:39:31 <sandro> sandro: I think we could do this non-breaking
15:39:42 <sandro> tantek: to me this feels like a new feature
15:40:06 <sandro> sandro: somewhere between should and may
15:40:22 <sandro> tantek: i'd like May
15:40:43 <sandro> tantek: Even a MAY is a new feature
15:41:21 <sandro> aaronpk: We already had two independent subscribers implement this feature, on their own.   And when we opened it, one of the hubs added support.
15:41:32 <sandro> aaronpk: seems like a good idea, all around.
15:42:22 <sandro> tantek: Sandro, if you can make a case to the director, that this is just clarifying web architecture, then okay.    Let's not restart clock.
15:42:23 <sandro> +1
15:42:41 <sandro> tantek: I like that it's not a break change
15:44:29 <ben_thatmustbeme> I dropped link to websub.rocks in IRC for diaspora, friendica, hubzilla, indieweb, mastodon, pump.io, and gnusocial
15:44:43 <tantek> thank you ben_thatmustbeme !
15:44:56 <sandro> PROPOSED: Adopt the option HTTP 410 Gone behavior in WebSub, if Director says we can do it without restarting CR clock
15:45:04 <ajordan> ben_thatmustbeme++
15:45:05 <Loqi> ben_thatmustbeme has 72 karma in this channel (223 overall)
15:45:06 <tantek> +1
15:45:08 <ajordan> +1
15:45:09 <aaronpk> +1
15:45:10 <sandro> +1
15:45:10 <rhiaro> +1
15:45:17 <cwebber2> +1
15:45:23 <ben_thatmustbeme> +1 /option/optional/
15:45:25 <sandro> RESOLVED: Adopt the optional HTTP 410 Gone behavior in WebSub, if Director says we can do it without restarting CR clock
15:45:32 <sandro> RRSAgent, pointer?
15:45:32 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2017/05/23-social-irc#T15-45-32
15:46:26 <sandro> topic: PostTypeDiscover
15:46:35 <sandro> tantek: no progress yet
15:46:36 <rhiaro> okie dokie!
15:46:41 <sandro> topic: Social Web Protocols
15:46:47 <sandro> tantek: want to update it, Amy?
15:47:03 <rhiaro> We didn't do a blanket one
15:48:06 <sandro> PROPOSED: Approve publication of new WD of social-web-protocols any time there's a status change of any of our other documents
15:48:13 <aaronpk> +1
15:48:14 <tantek> +1
15:48:17 <sandro> +1
15:48:21 <ajordan> +1
15:48:29 <rhiaro> +1
15:48:37 <cwebber2> +1
15:48:54 <sandro> RESOLVED: Approve publication of new WD of social-web-protocols any time there's a status change of any of our other documents
15:49:13 <sandro> topic: SWICG
15:49:13 <tantek> q?
15:49:37 <sandro> cwebber2: Not much to say.  We had a good meeting last week.
15:49:42 <cwebber2> https://beta.doodle.com/poll/rnnsf2y2fgmiq8zb#table
15:49:53 <ben_thatmustbeme> +1 (late)
15:49:54 <sandro> .. urgent to settle time.     22 votes on earlier poll, not so many yet on this one
15:50:22 <sandro> wednesday much better for me
15:50:34 <sandro> cwebber2: anyone have a strong preference between dates
15:51:09 <sandro> 11am ET Wed vs Noon Friday
15:52:06 <sandro> sandro: still ten people who answered the previous
15:52:40 <sandro> cwebber2: so this week, do we do Friday again, then decide then and there
15:52:56 <sandro> tantek: wednesday has one more vote
15:53:04 <sandro> cwebber2: but that's too soon
15:53:14 <ben_thatmustbeme> this friday was basically already scheduled, was it not?
15:53:46 <sandro> cwebber2: current wiki page says based on results of poll
15:54:55 <sandro> tantek: this all sounds okay, aaron and cwebber2
15:55:23 <sandro> cwebber2: consider it resolved for Wednesday, skipping this week
15:55:36 <ben_thatmustbeme> ben_thatmustbeme has changed the topic to: Next: SWICG telcon: https://www.w3.org/wiki/SocialCG/2017-05-31   SWWG telcon: https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2017-05-23 Logs: https://chat.indieweb.org/social
15:55:55 <aaronpk> scribenick: aaronpk
15:56:01 <aaronpk> sandro: this is CG issue 4 but affects our specs
15:56:10 <aaronpk> ... i was trying to convince w3c to let me install mastodon
15:56:22 <tantek> Issue 4?
15:56:22 <aaronpk> ... they won't, becausse there's no way to follow their normal practice of gently sunsetting the service
15:56:34 <aaronpk> ... unless there's a way to move people off the service, they don't want to run the service
15:56:46 <aaronpk> ... if sites respect HTTP forwarding then we're all set, which is what i wrote up in issue 4
15:56:49 <cwebber2> q+
15:56:53 <aaronpk> ... so i'm trying to figure out what things support forwarding
15:57:06 <aaronpk> ... activitypub never mentions HTTP redirects. so you could say you would follow them or not
15:57:08 <rhiaro> hey hey! https://www.w3.org/blog/news/archives/6321
15:57:09 <Loqi> 23 May 2017
15:57:09 <Loqi> “drawingThe JSON data model and vocabulary for representing common online social objects, activities, and the ...
15:57:17 <aaronpk> ... websub does talk about it but i'm still not clear on how much you can get away with
15:57:37 <tantek> URL to issue?
15:57:43 <sandro> https://github.com/swicg/general/issues/4
15:57:43 <Loqi> [sandhawke] #4 Forwarding
15:58:04 <aaronpk> ajordan: what we've done in the past is we didn't put anything in the spec about you MUST respect http caching headers, but we said something in the activitypub spec about this is http so caching should be respected
15:58:16 <aaronpk> ... so we could do the same for http redirects
15:58:48 <aaronpk> cwebber2: if you don't respect http caching you might make things painful for people but things won't break. but redirects might break things if you don't add it
15:58:55 <aaronpk> ... it's probably a good idea, but i haven't thought through it all yet
15:59:35 <aaronpk> ... the main point where i started to get unsure which is where sandro was suggesting that to avoid it being unintentional that you have 30 days before you make it permanent, that seems like complicated code
15:59:46 <sandro> q?
16:00:29 <cwebber2> q-
16:00:40 <aaronpk> https://w3c.github.io/websub/#content-distribution
16:00:50 <aaronpk> oops wrong URL https://w3c.github.io/websub/#subscription-migration
16:01:17 <aaronpk> <aaronpk> websub has tests for this, and some guidance for how to redirect
16:01:36 <aaronpk> tantek: can we get our specs to support websub?
16:01:49 <aaronpk> sandro: it would be easy to add rel=hub and have a notification go out to the hub
16:02:03 <aaronpk> ... politically, i'm not sure. maybe if there was some use for it, not just "that'd be cool"
16:02:59 <aaronpk> tantek: the other place to consider would be the w3c news page
16:03:14 <tantek> https://www.w3.org/blog/news/
16:03:18 <tantek> and https://www.w3.org/blog/
16:04:38 <cwebber2> thanks o/
16:05:07 <aaronpk> tantek: if there are no other issues we'll adjourn for the day
16:06:55 <aaronpk> trackbot, end meeting
16:06:55 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
16:06:55 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been rhiaro, sandro, aaronpk, ben_thatmustbeme, cwebber, ajordan_, tantek
16:06:59 <cwebber2> aaronpk++
16:06:59 <Loqi> aaronpk has 81 karma in this channel (1322 overall)
16:07:03 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
16:07:03 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/05/23-social-minutes.html trackbot
16:07:04 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
16:07:04 <RRSAgent> I see no action items
16:07:05 <tantek> thanks scribes!