07:57:30 RRSAgent has joined #auto 07:57:30 logging to http://www.w3.org/2017/05/10-auto-irc 07:57:32 RRSAgent, make logs public 07:57:32 Zakim has joined #auto 07:57:34 Zakim, this will be 07:57:34 I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot 07:57:35 Meeting: Automotive Working Group Teleconference 07:57:35 Date: 10 May 2017 08:00:21 kaz has joined #auto 08:07:00 hira has joined #auto 08:19:20 urata_ has joined #auto 08:20:26 AdamC has joined #auto 08:20:56 wonsuk has joined #auto 08:31:27 ahaller2_ has joined #auto 08:35:33 ahalle___ has joined #auto 08:46:21 Agenda bashed, going to be hectic with various conflicts. speakerphone 08:46:33 Topic: RSI 08:46:49 [recap, dev progress, temperature of others] 08:48:19 Ted gives recap on state wrt VISS staying on track, focus on other "domains" and a public proof of concept 08:50:34 [ted has his phone connected to webex in case people join before speakerphone arrives] 08:52:44 scribenick: ted__ 08:54:02 Present+ Hira 09:00:06 Present+ Peter, PatrickL, PatrickB, Wonsuk, Adam, Kevin, Lovene, Urata, Bernard, Ted 09:00:32 RSI demo being setup 09:01:56 Present+ Paul 09:03:54 PatrickB starts intro presentation 09:05:03 [repeat of Burlingame, @@@minutes with link to slides] 09:07:42 https://www.w3.org/2016/10/20-21-auto-member-minutes 09:07:56 [another copy of slides sent to member-automotive@w3.org] 09:08:36 https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-automotive/2017May/0015.html 09:09:27 PatrickB: decision to focus on HTTP so as to be able to allow phones to connect via BT 09:10:00 Wonsuk: based on BT standard? 09:10:14 Got it, TKS 09:10:20 PatrickL: BT + serial port profile since it is the most stable 09:11:02 Wonsuk: usual pairing and a follow up step? 09:11:30 PatrickB: install app on phone, pair with BT as usual, then second permission for the phone 09:11:55 PatrickL: yes you then allow the device to access the apis from the head unit 09:12:09 PatrickB: after that reconnects are automatic 09:12:20 PatrickL: preshared key 09:12:55 ... that installation of that application on that phone is paired with that car 09:13:04 Ted: you can pair with more than one car? 09:13:09 PatrickL: yes 09:13:39 ... TLS protecting the device / car interactions 09:14:40 PatrickL: I would like to discuss standardization of the tokens and pairing 09:15:01 Ted: I should ask colleagues, Dom in particular 09:15:13 junichi-hashimoto has joined #auto 09:16:28 PatrickB: we presented this to the group in October, joined W3C and made a Member Submission 09:16:40 ... other domains pending 09:16:53 PatrickLue has joined #auto 09:16:53 ... we are working on demo server for media at present 09:17:03 Java RSI Client Implementation: https://github.com/luennemann/RSIMedia 09:17:03 rrsagent, draft minutes 09:17:03 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/05/10-auto-minutes.html ted__ 09:17:16 PatrickB: we have 5-6 contributorrs already on github 09:17:21 + Media Client 09:18:13 PatrickB: VW has this in production vehicles, initially a modest number of cars with intent of widening it to other models in the coming year 09:21:17 https://www.w3.org/Submission/2016/01/ 09:21:40 protocol, cdn, media (services), media library, mixer 09:22:00 additional pending: notifications (likely), navigation (more difficult) 09:23:52 [additional history summary for Lovene's benefit] 09:24:14 Paul: Philippe Colliot (PSA) hopefully can join us today or tomorrow 09:24:53 Ted: we also have work from Qing An Alibaba around LBS plus Genivi hopefully can fill in on nav 09:25:04 PatrickL: navigation is also incredibly complicated 09:25:12 (order of statements out of sync) 09:26:52 PatrickB: talking to eg Spotify they do not want to write something for a measely 10M cars when they are focused on billions of other devices 09:27:06 ... they would be willing to write the bridge 09:27:32 (earlier Ted noted iHeart said they find ViWi/RSI media workable for them) 09:28:19 Ted: it is just a thin wrapper around their proprietary API 09:28:30 PatrickB: if they are not willing to write that wrapper we can 09:29:07 ... auto industry is very fragmented. some of these content providers have done one off solutions and have found it painful including the long term contracted maintenance commitment 09:29:38 Peter: Spotify did it once for WindowsCE and understand that was painful as well 09:29:47 ... I agree with the statement of the problem 09:33:25 PatrickL: we want to have something easily usable by content providers to be in another ecosystem similar to Apple carplay and Android auto 09:35:23 [pending additional domain explained off the record] 09:36:39 Wonsuk mentions a similar effort at W3C for this other domain 09:37:17 PatrickL contrasts, mostly on user interaction 09:37:57 VW's additional submission is based on existing convention (quasi-standard) 09:41:22 [ted prepares to depart for Genivi panel, group will continue on RSI or possibly VIAS] 09:42:45 paul has joined #auto 09:43:22 peterw has joined #auto 09:43:54 OK 09:44:17 kaz has joined #auto 09:46:01 == peterw taking notes on irc 09:51:19 peterw2 has joined #auto 09:51:55 == Patrick the RESTFULness very important for the RSI approach 09:52:00 RSI has graph interface 09:52:07 like FB 09:53:23 Restfulness supports microservices architecture 09:54:55 patrick guidelines to obtain tokens needed 09:58:56 http://wamp-proto.org/ 09:59:52 http://openid.net/connect/ 10:01:06 Junichi has joined #auto 10:04:58 peterw3 has joined #auto 10:06:03 paul DLNA for media 10:06:30 == RSI approach high level business drivn 10:11:14 https://wiki.openmobilealliance.org/display/OI/OMA+Report+on+Automotive+Opportunity 10:13:51 KevG has joined #auto 10:16:15 PatrickB has joined #auto 10:16:22 https://wiki.openmobilealliance.org/display/OI/OMA+Report+on+Automotive+Opportunity 10:18:01 urata2 has joined #auto 10:21:28 peterw8 has joined #auto 10:25:35 IoT architectures are somewhat similar 10:52:07 junichi-hashimoto has joined #auto 11:00:54 coffee break? 11:03:21 ted__ has joined #auto 11:03:31 rrsagent, draft minutes 11:03:31 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/05/10-auto-minutes.html ted__ 11:12:16 PatrickL: what does the group think should be the next step towards standardizing the protocol 11:12:48 ... we are trying to bring use cases into our regular calls, show it works, make it open source so people can try it out 11:19:50 Ted explains BG process and reports, suggests next step 11:20:47 Please reconnect WebEX 11:22:57 Paul: it is difficult to get participation, people are too busy with their day jobs 11:23:13 ... I also want to avoid fracturing such a small group 11:24:05 ... people can start playing with the mock server and creating their own. we should do some outreaach, involve people like Roger 11:26:02 Please turn off mute in your phone. 11:26:56 Ted: another advantage to getting this going in the BG is lower barrier of entry, legally and financially 11:27:24 Bernard: you guys need to be better about messaging, updating the BG page where people land and want to learn what is going on 11:28:04 Ted: I am guilty of not being able to put in enough time in that due to my other day job at W3C (Head of Systems) and also not the best at messaging 11:28:52 ... people from this group (or their organizations) are more than welcome to contribute to blog articles, news feeds etc. I will try to be better 11:29:06 Paul: we are revitalizing what is taking place in the BG 11:29:21 Paul: let's agree on a name and get going 11:29:47 PatrickL: define the name, put on github, encourage people to join 11:29:56 Paul: using repec 11:30:55 Zakim has left #auto 11:30:57 Paul: I would like to see what JLR's interest is here. You have been heavily involved in W3C VISS and VSS 11:31:10 Kevin: generally supportive 11:31:19 Adam: similar model to web sockets 11:32:15 Kevin: nothing has changed in our commitment to the group 11:33:04 Paul: one problem has been the time of the meeting 11:36:47 PatrickB: we should try to have more public discussions 11:41:43 ... benefit is more promotion, suggest #w3cauto 11:42:53 auto has joined #auto 11:43:35 Schedule meeting to work for all 11:43:45 Move specs to respec 11:43:58 put more info on website 11:45:54 make effort to publicize 11:47:35 [discussion on specific organizations we would like to engage, history of pass participants] 11:58:52 Thank you for setting up webex environment. let us reconnect again after lunch :) 12:04:42 kaz has joined #auto 12:09:23 yingying has joined #auto 12:36:15 ahaller2_ has joined #auto 12:36:52 ahaller2 has joined #auto 12:48:08 AdamC has joined #auto 12:49:16 ahaller2_ has joined #auto 12:50:16 urata has joined #auto 12:51:00 ted__ has joined #auto 13:02:29 Topic: VISS 13:02:59 PatrickL: I want to understand the issues you are facing 13:03:33 Adam: if for example you don't include the path in getVSS method you get the entire tree 13:03:59 ... what we wanted to do is perhaps emit path but what to do if you're given null 13:04:23 ... do we feel having WebIDL and JSON schema in the same spec is a good idea? 13:06:15 Wonsuk: if there is no path property that could mean the client wants the whole vss tree 13:06:27 ... in webidl there is no null option 13:07:21 Adam: saying filters=null is the issue 13:07:28 Ted: isn't filterrs optional? 13:08:35 Adam: yes but either we stick with webidl or do not. webidl is for interacting with an api within the browser, whereas here we're talking to a service 13:10:05 Peter: i don't want to check json objects for path sometimes but not others 13:11:31 junichi-hashimoto has joined #auto 13:13:08 https://github.com/w3c/automotive/issues/174 13:14:57 Ted: problem arises since we're trying to use WebIDL for a service 13:15:12 Paul: reason is for easier binding to VIAS 13:16:05 s/reason is for easier binding to VIAS/what are the reasons for sticking with it?/ 13:16:20 Ted: perhaps for easier binding to VIAS 13:16:28 Adam: I don't think that is relevant 13:16:52 Ted: then it is simply influenced by tooling (respec) and consistency with other w3c spec patterns 13:23:04 wonsuk has joined #auto 13:23:32 [discussion of dropping webidl since we are not doing an ecmascript api] 13:26:05 ahaller2 has joined #auto 13:34:36 Ted consults Philippe Le Hegaret via irc 13:36:11 https://www.w3.org/TR/webdriver/ 13:36:24 ok to drop webidl, will confer also with Mike Smith 13:37:19 plh suggests, correctly, we are perhaps misusing webidl and can cause ourselves problem in the future 13:37:48 tentative resolution: ditch webidl and see if Ted can get suggestions from Mike or others 13:38:02 web driver was given as a possibly pertinent examplep 13:40:22 hira has joined #auto 13:42:09 [back to filters] 13:42:26 PatrickL: I would be inclned to have two interfaces insteaad of this compound one 13:44:07 hira_ has joined #auto 13:44:35 ...separating getVSS and filter 13:44:56 Adam: interesting, thanks that might solve some other issues 13:47:56 PatrickL: document for the data structure again? 13:48:04 Adam broadcasts VSS spec 13:48:47 PatrickL: any experience generating C++ object model from YAML? 13:49:39 Paul: the fidl view might be helpful, Urata might have done something too 13:49:44 Urata: to csv 13:50:18 Paul: Franca people would be familiar, try Gunnar since you don't know Klaus 13:50:44 PatrickL: I like the documentation in YAML 13:52:57 Wonsuk points out VSS parser which is extensible 13:55:51 PatrickL: that is pretty powerful and documentation in the core truth (YAML). I could see taking JSON or another form to build out a mock server automatically 13:56:11 Lovene: would you be able to open your tooling as well? 13:56:33 PatrickL: possibly including adding to the VSS parser 13:57:35 ... I need JSON for some of my purposes 13:57:49 Paul: reason for YAML was to go lower in stack to C++ and Franca 14:01:05 ahaller2 has joined #auto 14:09:31 https://github.com/w3c/automotive/issues/200 14:09:58 ttl in ms in our spec, usually in seconds 14:13:13 agree for ttl in seconds 14:15:41 https://github.com/w3c/automotive/issues/142 14:16:17 Adam: we should be able to set lock for everything within door via wildcard, no concern of number of doors nor look at vss beforehand 14:20:26 Ted: 409 Conflict could work fine here especially to be consistent with rest of spec. alternates for door not being closed example 412 Precondition Failed 416 Requested Range Not Satisfiable or 417 Expectation Failed 14:21:18 Urata: in the explicit example, iterating through doors, the server has to try each interaction separately 14:22:14 ... you can have separate response codes and consider the overall failed if any fails 14:22:21 ahaller2 has joined #auto 14:22:36 PatrickB: yes but perhaps rollback state for the others 14:23:41 Kevin: you might want to leave the lockable doors locked 14:24:05 PatrickB: 202 accepted could signify partial success instead of 200 OK for all 14:24:19 ... or other in 2NN range 14:24:49 Adam: we don't give 200s since we're not REST at present 14:25:12 Kevin: success is JSON fragment or failure response 14:26:36 Ted: ideal would be to know which failed but that would complicate the failed response 14:27:41 PatrickB: we tend to send back a 200 for ok, 400 for client side and 500 if issue is with ECU 14:28:23 how about simply to prohibit "wildcard set"? 14:30:21 Kevin: on failure, partial or full, you would need to iterate to find state of each 14:35:22 Junichi: you can end up in a deadlock state especially if multiple clients are interacting. I would prefer to keep it simple 14:36:44 PatrickB: you have to queue requests to be able to process them separately 14:36:47 hira__ has joined #auto 14:37:12 ... last wins 14:38:26 Kevin: that is problematic when it isn't a binary true/false but incremental change 14:48:04 fyi, once we investigated 'set' method. there may be more complicated race conditions https://w3c.github.io/automotive/vehicle_data/security/#set-set-method 15:16:41 ahaller2 has joined #auto 16:10:43 ahaller2 has joined #auto 17:58:44 ahaller2 has joined #auto 18:52:48 ahaller2 has joined #auto 19:46:56 ahaller2 has joined #auto 20:07:46 ahaller2 has joined #auto 20:43:06 ahaller2 has joined #auto 21:03:58 ahaller2 has joined #auto 21:39:17 ahaller2 has joined #auto 21:55:19 ahaller2 has joined #auto 23:04:06 ahaller2 has joined #auto 23:37:35 ahaller2 has joined #auto 23:54:34 ahaller2 has joined #auto