14:55:27 RRSAgent has joined #i18n 14:55:27 logging to http://www.w3.org/2017/05/04-i18n-irc 14:55:31 Zakim has joined #i18n 14:55:36 trackbot, prepare teleconference 14:55:40 RRSAgent, make logs world 14:55:43 Zakim, this will be 4186 14:55:43 Meeting: Internationalization Working Group Teleconference 14:55:43 Date: 04 May 2017 14:55:43 ok, trackbot 14:55:54 Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-core/2017May/0001.html 14:55:59 Chair: Addison Phillips 14:56:02 ScribeNick: addison 14:56:14 agenda+ Agenda 14:56:19 agenda+ Action Items 14:56:23 agenda+ Info Share 14:56:31 agenda+ Radar Review 14:56:51 agenda+ Review and close Charmod-Norm issues 14:57:02 agenda+ OWL-Time and urgent reviews 14:57:20 agenda+ Support for bidi in strings 14:57:33 agenda+ Default base direction for documents 14:57:55 Regrets: Steven, Jck (?) 14:58:00 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/05/04-i18n-minutes.html addison 15:00:24 Jan has joined #i18n 15:01:06 Present+ Addison 15:01:12 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/05/04-i18n-minutes.html addison 15:01:44 najib has joined #i18n 15:02:25 Present+ Jan 15:02:28 David_ has joined #I18N 15:02:28 Present+ Richard 15:02:50 najib has left #i18n 15:04:07 Bert has joined #i18n 15:05:20 najib has joined #i18n 15:05:58 Present+ Bert 15:06:03 Present+ David 15:06:11 zakim, take up agendum 1 15:06:11 agendum 1. "Agenda" taken up [from addison] 15:06:12 agenda? 15:06:42 present+ 15:06:51 zakim, take up agendum 2 15:06:51 agendum 2. "Action Items" taken up [from addison] 15:06:53 https://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/open 15:07:28 action-552? 15:07:28 action-552 -- Addison Phillips to Write to json-ld about potential for a serialization form for natural language strings to address issues with dir and lang -- due 2016-09-29 -- OPEN 15:07:28 http://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/552 15:07:47 action-554? 15:07:47 action-554 -- Addison Phillips to Work to schedule a review of microformats -- due 2017-03-30 -- OPEN 15:07:47 http://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/554 15:08:07 action-611? 15:08:07 action-611 -- Addison Phillips to Contact martin to see if unicode-xml will be worked on soon so that wg can decide if alternate next steps are needed -- due 2017-04-27 -- OPEN 15:08:07 http://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/611 15:08:18 close action-611 15:08:18 Closed action-611. 15:08:28 present+ 15:09:29 action: addison: update unicode-xml to indicate current status 15:09:30 Created ACTION-616 - Update unicode-xml to indicate current status [on Addison Phillips - due 2017-05-11]. 15:10:05 action-612? 15:10:05 action-612 -- Addison Phillips to Create a bidi/lang recommendations document in order to go to tag -- due 2017-04-27 -- OPEN 15:10:05 http://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/612 15:10:22 action-614? 15:10:22 action-614 -- Addison Phillips to Ping anne about encoding tests (reviewing, etc.) -- due 2017-04-27 -- OPEN 15:10:22 http://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/614 15:11:01 addison: not sure what to expect from anne 15:11:09 richard: henri going through tests 15:11:12 ... and some others 15:11:19 .... couple of changes as a result 15:11:27 ... do they want to change or should I? 15:11:40 ... question is: see you/folks are finding time to look at tests 15:11:47 ... what do you see as next steps? 15:11:53 ... how should we be involved? 15:12:17 action-615? 15:12:17 action-615 -- Addison Phillips to Finalize floating time article for publication -- due 2017-05-04 -- OPEN 15:12:17 http://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/615 15:13:29 action: richard: give addison access to i18n-drafts 15:13:29 Created ACTION-617 - Give addison access to i18n-drafts [on Richard Ishida - due 2017-05-11]. 15:13:50 zakim, take up agendum 3 15:13:50 agendum 3. "Info Share" taken up [from addison] 15:14:24 welcoming Bert Bos 15:14:35 bert: more than 20 years ago created the WG 15:14:40 ... have been in the group before 15:14:47 ... but have been doing other things, such as CSS 15:14:59 ... html, xml, mathml, traction protection 15:15:05 ... that's teh DNT header 15:15:08 ... at W3C a long time 15:15:17 ... since this group is looking for help reviewing 15:15:31 ... sounded interesting. hope to learn a bit more about the things I'm reviewing and i18n 15:16:00 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/05/04-i18n-minutes.html addison 15:16:08 agenda? 15:16:11 David_ has joined #i18n 15:16:13 zakim, take up agendum 4 15:16:13 agendum 4. "Radar Review" taken up [from addison] 15:16:21 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/projects/1 15:18:47 Bert: will take ORDL 15:21:16 http://w3c.github.io/i18n-activity/projects/ 15:22:22 richard: changing tests for unicode bidi in css 15:22:25 ... in writing modes 15:22:34 ... bidi isolation didn't work according to test results page 15:22:39 ... couple of other values 15:22:45 ... but do seem to work, checked FF 15:22:50 ... and chrome seems same 15:23:01 ... still behind with Edge 15:23:05 https://www.w3.org/International/tests/repo/results/writing-modes-bidi#inline 15:23:14 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/05/04-i18n-minutes.html addison 15:23:47 richard: did work on JS course for EdX 15:23:51 ... sent comments 15:24:02 ... not a lot to say but a few things 15:24:12 ... talking about strings in later section 15:24:58 addison: need to add the text about supplementary charasters, drafting reply to your email 15:25:07 q+ 15:25:14 ack najib 15:26:00 najib: have some tests for rare cases 15:26:06 ... of isolation 15:26:17 http://w3c.github.io/i18n-activity/reviews/ 15:26:45 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/issues/399 15:28:19 agenda? 15:28:59 zakim, take up agendum 8 15:28:59 agendum 8. "Default base direction for documents" taken up [from addison] 15:29:42 David has joined #I18n 15:29:52 https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-core/2017May/0002.html 15:30:06 richard: two links, first is to a ttml issue 15:30:12 ... there should be an 'auto' value 15:30:27 ... largely about usefulness of auto for insertion of text 15:30:33 ... but another way it can be useful 15:30:43 ... can be useful as "overall direction" for the document 15:30:51 ... currently we say that the default should be ltr 15:31:07 ... so if you run across ARabic and don't mark it, it will look wrong 15:31:18 ... default auto would use strong character in text to determine 15:31:45 q+ 15:32:01 addison: inherits down 15:32:14 richard: use xsl model for establishing direction in ttml 15:32:29 ... region auto 15:32:49 ... only have to supply span in cases where rtl paragraphs or spans don't start with a strong 15:32:57 ... suggested this to webvtt I think? 15:33:02 ... think they accepted 15:33:10 ... mati thought it sounded logical 15:33:13 ack najib 15:33:25 najib: agree on the intention 15:33:30 ... it depends on the text in question 15:33:35 ... if the text is in an html page 15:33:46 ... page normally begins with title 15:34:01 ... title may not have same text as normal paragraph 15:34:10 http://www.w3c.org.ma/Press/securewebauthwg.ar.html 15:34:23 ... have many texts that being with "W3C... (something)..." 15:34:33 ... so always start with a first strong of "W" 15:34:48 richard: those are cases that have to be addressed 15:34:55 ... if ttml is by default auto 15:35:05 ... dont' have to add rtl at doc top in every doc 15:35:21 ... in sitution like w3c---something--- have to do something 15:36:46 addison: concerned about layout effects of this 15:37:09 richard: could do a couple of things, 15:37:17 ... in spec-dev could say make default auto 15:37:26 ... or say ltr-or-auto 15:37:31 ... with discussion of pros-cons 15:37:48 ... true for new formats. for ttml not probably usable 15:38:08 ... xsl model, overall direction for region derives from writing-mode 15:38:32 ... css no longer includes text direction in writing-mode 15:38:42 ... writing-mode has no allowance for auto 15:38:55 ... already have vast number of values for writing-mode 15:39:04 ... but wanted to bring up question 15:39:38 David: support this 15:39:52 ... if ltr default and we change 15:40:00 ... won't break anything I think 15:42:01 addison: suggest we go to larger community? 15:42:35 action: richard: create a short document about making direction default recommendation to be 'auto' and send to www-international@ for review 15:42:36 Created ACTION-618 - Create a short document about making direction default recommendation to be 'auto' and send to www-international@ for review [on Richard Ishida - due 2017-05-11]. 15:42:47 agenda? 15:43:06 zakim, take up agendum 6 15:43:06 agendum 6. "OWL-Time and urgent reviews" taken up [from addison] 15:43:54 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/issues?utf8=%E2%9C%93&q=is%3Aissue%20is%3Aopen%20label%3Aowl-time 15:44:21 scribenick: Bert 15:45:10 addison: Most key thing is OWL time describes a whole bunch of things, non-gregorian calendars, etc. 15:45:26 ... Fine from LOD POV, but 15:45:52 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/issues/405 15:45:55 ... looks problematic from i18n. 15:46:32 ... Time zones don't use IANA IDs. 15:46:48 ... And maybe there's a false assumption about how TZs work, in terms of offset. 15:47:11 r12a: Is that in one of their examples? 15:47:15 addison: Yes 15:47:49 ... The standard for time zone in general is IANA. Dateandtime.com has their own, not IANA. 15:48:00 ... The example uses abbreviations. 15:48:22 r12a: Level of coverage? 15:48:35 addison: I'm not sure about the level of coverage. 15:48:45 r12a: The example is not a real site... 15:48:47 https://www.timeanddate.com/time/zones/aest 15:49:24 addison: Sorry, it's the domain ^^^ 15:49:36 r12a: No objection from moe to sending this comment. 15:49:43 s/moe/me/ 15:49:56 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/issues/404 15:50:09 r12a: As separate comments? 15:50:12 addison: Yes 15:50:51 addison: Need links to Gregorian calendar for "general" 15:50:55 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/issues/403 15:51:35 addison: Time units week, etc. can take decimal value: "6.7 weeks" 15:51:49 ... Not entirely clear what those periods are. 15:52:03 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/issues/402 15:52:15 r12a: Comment sounds good to me. 15:52:51 addison: Week number from ISO, but different countries count weeks differently. 15:53:15 r12a: Several countries have different first days for the week, Sunday/Monday. 15:53:29 addison: This is also about what is the first week. 15:53:32 Or Friday 15:53:35 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/issues/401 15:54:21 r12a: "First week of the year is the week containing the first Thursday". Is that an attempt to get around that? 15:54:45 ... Might be good to add some of that detail to your comment. 15:55:19 addison: Description of time zone: they say it's a region and an offet, but it is really a bit more than that. 15:55:22 s/Or Friday// 15:55:28 ... And the possibility of future changes. 15:55:40 r12a: You might want to point to them to one of our documents, 15:55:52 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/issues/400 15:56:02 probably www.org/TR/timezone 15:56:25 addison: Last issue is conversion to Gregorian. 15:56:51 ... Most times have a defined relation to Gregorian. 15:57:24 agenda? 15:57:30 ... Any comments or objections to these six issues? 15:57:56 zakim, take up agendum 7 15:57:56 agendum 7. "Support for bidi in strings" taken up [from addison] 15:58:03 addison: Do we want to talk about bidi strings today? We have 3 minutes. 15:58:09 r12a: Happy to. 15:58:14 https://aphillips.github.io/i18n-discuss/notes/i18n-action-612.html 15:58:59 addison: I pointed to our other docs about lang. and base direction. 15:59:12 ... Added quick pros and cons. 16:00:00 ... Example of Payment API spec added dictionary pattern. 16:00:00 q+ 16:00:45 r12a: Biggest comment is that Tantek will probably say there is a third option: use control characters from Unicode. 16:01:02 addison: That doesn't solve the language problem. 16:01:21 r12a: But it is worth mentioning. 16:01:36 addison: As a "Solution 3" that we don't recommend? 16:01:53 r12a: Not sure it's a solutuion 3. 16:02:07 could be just an additional paragraphy 16:02:12 rrsagent, draft minutes 16:02:12 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/05/04-i18n-minutes.html r12a 16:02:58 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/05/04-i18n-minutes.html addison 16:03:06 najib has left #i18n 16:03:30 present- Richard 16:03:33 rrsagent, draft minutes 16:03:33 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/05/04-i18n-minutes.html r12a 16:03:39 Note: Leonie's request was about ARIA 16:04:13 ok 16:04:18 will you reply? 16:04:42 s/ trackbot, prepare teleconference// 16:06:08 s/but do seem to work/but now do seem to work/ 16:07:33 s/use xsl model/TTML uses xsl model/ 16:07:41 rrsagent, draft minutes 16:07:41 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/05/04-i18n-minutes.html r12a 16:08:44 behnam has joined #i18n 16:09:19 s/xsl model, overall direction/actually, in the TTML case they use the xsl model, overall direction/ 16:09:59 s/actually, in the TTML case they use the xsl model, overall direction/xsl model, overall direction/ 16:10:03 rrsagent, draft minutes 16:10:03 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/05/04-i18n-minutes.html r12a 16:11:04 s/already have vast number/TTML use the XSL model and so already have vast number - adding auto would increase that substantially/ 16:11:06 rrsagent, draft minutes 16:11:07 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/05/04-i18n-minutes.html r12a 16:13:01 addison: yep 16:13:13 s/paragraphy/paragraph/ 16:13:16 rrsagent, draft minutes 16:13:16 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/05/04-i18n-minutes.html r12a 17:12:58 behnam has joined #i18n 17:13:40 behnam has joined #i18n 17:40:17 behnam has joined #i18n 21:56:49 behnam_ has joined #i18n