15:02:51 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #social
15:02:51 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2017/05/02-social-irc
15:02:53 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
15:02:53 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #social
15:02:55 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be SOCL
15:02:55 <Zakim> ok, trackbot
15:02:56 <trackbot> Meeting: Social Web Working Group Teleconference
15:02:56 <trackbot> Date: 02 May 2017
15:02:57 <KevinMarks> I am thing to have to be irc only
15:02:59 <cwebber> present+
15:03:05 <eprodrom> present+
15:03:12 <eprodrom> scribe?
15:03:24 <ben_thatmustbeme> I can scribe, its been a few weeks
15:03:31 <KevinMarks> Present+
15:03:40 <ben_thatmustbeme> scribenick: ben_thatmustbeme
15:03:42 <sandro> present+
15:03:44 <ben_thatmustbeme> scribe: Ben Roberts
15:03:47 <ben_thatmustbeme> Chair: eprodrom
15:04:13 <cwebber> I'm here
15:04:21 <eprodrom> eprodrom has changed the topic to: https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2017-05-02
15:04:45 <cwebber> sandro, <KevinMarks> I am thing to have to be irc only
15:04:52 <cwebber> I guess yes :)
15:05:07 <ben_thatmustbeme> TOPIC: approval of minutes
15:05:23 <eprodrom> PROPOSED: approve https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2017-04-25-minutes as minutes for April 25 meeting
15:05:28 <cwebber> +1
15:05:57 <eprodrom> +1
15:06:02 <ben_thatmustbeme> +1
15:06:26 <ajordan> present+
15:06:27 <ajordan> oops
15:06:35 <sandro> +1
15:06:40 <ben_thatmustbeme> eprodrom: can we get some +1s on minutes?
15:06:42 <KevinMarks> I am today, as I had to take my father in law to the ophthalmologist
15:07:01 <eprodrom> RESOLVED: approve https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2017-04-25-minutes as minutes for April 25 meeting
15:07:26 <ben_thatmustbeme> TOPIC: next meeing?
15:07:34 <tantek> tantek has joined #social
15:08:06 <ben_thatmustbeme> eprodrom: from my point of view, at least helping chris with AP as well as just a chair here, it feels like we are doing a lot in these meetings, so i am in favor of having weekly meetings for now
15:08:07 <cwebber> +1 to meeting on the 9th
15:08:14 <cwebber> yep
15:08:15 <sandro> +1 meeting the 9th, given the current deadline pressure
15:08:28 <ajordan> +1
15:08:31 <cwebber> https://www.w3.org/community/swicg/
15:08:36 <cwebber> I think that was ajordan
15:08:40 <cwebber> oops
15:08:48 <cwebber> https://www.w3.org/community/swicg/2017/05/01/social-web-incubator-community-group-kick-off-call/ more specifically
15:08:49 <Loqi> Social Web Incubator Community Group kick-off call
15:08:49 <Loqi> Christopher Webber |  Posted on: May 1, 2017
15:08:49 <Loqi> Hello everyone,
15:08:49 <Loqi> We’re pl...
15:08:51 <ben_thatmustbeme> ajordan: also note that there is a community group meething this friday
15:09:10 <cwebber> ;)
15:09:15 <KevinMarks> I just signed up for that
15:09:16 <ben_thatmustbeme> eprodrom: unless anyone has issues with it, i will say we have a meeting next week as we are in a pressure sensative time
15:09:38 <ben_thatmustbeme> ... i will have to confirm with tantek that he's ok to chair, but i think we have the power to just decide that we have a meeting
15:09:53 <tantek> we already did last week
15:10:02 <Loqi> Cwebber2 made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2017-05-02]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=102896&oldid=102895
15:10:05 <eprodrom> https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2017-05-02 <- agenda
15:10:57 <tantek> present+
15:11:03 <ben_thatmustbeme> present+
15:11:38 <ben_thatmustbeme> TOPIC: SWICG telcons
15:12:23 <cwebber> https://www.w3.org/community/swicg/2017/05/01/social-web-incubator-community-group-kick-off-call/
15:12:24 <Loqi> Social Web Incubator Community Group kick-off call
15:12:24 <Loqi> Christopher Webber |  Posted on: May 1, 2017
15:12:24 <Loqi> Hello everyone,
15:12:24 <Loqi> We’re pl...
15:12:37 <sandro> q+
15:12:52 <ben_thatmustbeme> cwebber: we scheduled our first telcon for this friday on irc / mumble, been trying to drum up interest in various places, i recommend others do the same
15:13:02 <ben_thatmustbeme> ... its going to be a loose call and open up discussion
15:13:20 <ben_thatmustbeme> ... and what people would like to work on and guage next steps
15:13:44 <ben_thatmustbeme> tantek: is that enough advanced notice? i don't know of any rules for CGs, but its somewhat short notice
15:13:47 <KevinMarks_> KevinMarks_ has joined #social
15:14:00 <ben_thatmustbeme> cwebber: yes, its pretty short notice, but its been scheduled now
15:14:15 <ben_thatmustbeme> tantek: well its okay if its only a few people, just want to set expectations
15:14:27 <ben_thatmustbeme> cwebber: yes, its ok if its a smaller number of people there
15:14:41 <ben_thatmustbeme> tantek: what are you using for audio calls?
15:14:57 <ben_thatmustbeme> cwebber: its on mumble, it has clients on just about everything
15:15:11 <ben_thatmustbeme> ... i've had pretty good success with it just working (tm)
15:15:35 <ben_thatmustbeme> ... it also works well for people internationally well
15:16:00 <sandro> https://www.w3.org/community/swicg/
15:16:06 <ben_thatmustbeme> eprodrom: also for anyone who hasn't signed up for the CG, please do
15:16:07 <eprodrom> q?
15:16:09 <eprodrom> ack sandro
15:16:32 <ben_thatmustbeme> sandro: is there any way to reach the members of the CG to let them know about the meeting?
15:16:57 <ben_thatmustbeme> cwebber: the current method i'm using is to post to all the social web  type things
15:17:04 <KevinMarks_> Send them webmentions?
15:17:23 <ben_thatmustbeme> ... we don't have an email list, i don't have strong opinions on this, which is why it got email removed
15:18:06 <ben_thatmustbeme> cwebber: personally i don't have any objections to email
15:18:31 <ben_thatmustbeme> tantek: there was discussion of possibly even using github issues for meeting scheduling
15:18:53 <ben_thatmustbeme> cwebber: sounds like a good this to discuss in the first meeting
15:19:06 <ben_thatmustbeme> tantek: aaronpk actually POSSE's from his site to email
15:19:11 <ben_thatmustbeme> eprodrom: am i muted?
15:19:25 <ben_thatmustbeme> eprodrom: sounds like we have a plan for this friday, glad that that is happening
15:19:40 <ben_thatmustbeme> TOPIC: PR status updates
15:20:17 <ben_thatmustbeme> sandro: LDN came out and AS2 still needs another week or so, i don't think there is anything to say about it right now
15:20:25 <cwebber> go amy!
15:20:42 <ben_thatmustbeme> sandro: for people who don't know amy turned in her doctoral thesis and is on retreat
15:21:19 <ben_thatmustbeme> eprodrom: that leaves next steps for the other PRs, as far as AS2 is concerned we haven't had other issues come in... actually we have 2 new ones from the group
15:21:37 <ben_thatmustbeme> ... they look like they are just editorial, which i will review
15:21:44 <ben_thatmustbeme> ... do we have any for the other PRs?
15:22:16 <ben_thatmustbeme> cwebber: there are a couple of example issues i found that are very small, nothing that should be normative, planning on sending a PR this week (for AS vocab doc)
15:22:27 <Loqi> awesome
15:23:14 <ben_thatmustbeme> sandro: talk to your AC reps to get some more feedback on these specs
15:23:44 <ben_thatmustbeme> ... specifically for activity streams which has a deadline in the next week or so
15:23:49 <sandro> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/33280/socialweb/  Deadline May 11
15:24:05 <ben_thatmustbeme> TOPIC: our CRs
15:24:18 <ben_thatmustbeme> TOPIC: PR status updates
15:24:41 <ben_thatmustbeme> tantek: since aaronpk isn't here, there are a few micropub issues that came up, please take a look at them to help process them
15:25:04 <ben_thatmustbeme> tantek: oh there is a new implementation for micropub as well
15:25:31 <ben_thatmustbeme> tantek: micro.blog has taken micropub as their client connection API
15:26:03 <ben_thatmustbeme> ... so their client will work for any micropub servers, and existing micropub  clients will work for them
15:26:22 <ben_thatmustbeme> ... also micro.blog is not a w3c member, just a kickstarter project
15:27:32 <ben_thatmustbeme> ben_thatmustbeme: i opened issues on various issue trackers, to request support for it too
15:29:44 <eprodrom_> eprodrom_ has joined #social
15:31:56 <ben_thatmustbeme> TOPIC: current CR updates
15:32:01 <sandro> Here's the W3C Member Confidential link to one negative comment on MicroPub: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-archive/2017Apr/0338.html
15:32:29 <sandro> (Oh, wait, that's incomplete.)
15:32:38 <ben_thatmustbeme> eprodrom_: is there anything we can talk about on websub without aaronpk or julien here?
15:32:54 <ben_thatmustbeme> tantek: i was hoping to get a websub test suite update today
15:33:11 <ben_thatmustbeme> eprodrom_: i think aaronpk said a 2 week schedule for it made sense
15:33:17 <ben_thatmustbeme> tantek: and i see 3 open issues
15:33:39 <ben_thatmustbeme> eprodrom_: on to AP
15:33:41 <tantek> https://github.com/w3c/websub/issues/
15:34:06 <ben_thatmustbeme> cwebber: we have seen some implementation work from mastodon and ??
15:34:52 <ben_thatmustbeme> ... in terms of a test suite, i have some working code, and i have discussed with eprodrom_ and its a bit too prompty, and its  going to be some work to simplify it
15:35:02 <cwebber> https://w3c.github.io/activitypub/#changes-11-april-to-2-may
15:35:10 <ben_thatmustbeme> ... things are not there yet, but there is progress
15:35:27 <ben_thatmustbeme> ... we had a CR scheduled for today, put the link to changes
15:35:34 <ben_thatmustbeme> ... in irc
15:35:52 <ben_thatmustbeme> ... mainly a new CR because there have been a lot of changes
15:35:56 <cwebber> https://github.com/w3c/activitypub/issues/219
15:35:57 <Loqi> [cwebber] #219 Make adding to outbox collection on client to server section a MUST?
15:36:08 <ben_thatmustbeme> ... but before issuing another CR, we may want to talk about a few of these issues
15:36:27 <ben_thatmustbeme> ... for 219 its a question of it should be a MUST to post ...
15:36:38 <ajordan> q+
15:36:53 <ben_thatmustbeme> ... i'm not completely convinced if those are reason enough
15:37:34 <ben_thatmustbeme> eprodrom_: couple of tricky bits here, one is access control, if i publish something that is only visible to certain people, what does it mean to publish it to that outbox collection
15:37:51 <ben_thatmustbeme> ... do they have different views of the
15:38:11 <ben_thatmustbeme> cwebber: we already have working about filtering the outbox based on ACLs
15:38:29 <ben_thatmustbeme> eprodrom_: the only other issue i could see is with third party confirmation
15:38:51 <ben_thatmustbeme> ... like a captca, or a confirmation you were tagged
15:39:00 <ben_thatmustbeme> eprodrom_: a SHOULD would likely be fine
15:39:13 <ben_thatmustbeme> sandro: what happens if someone violates the should?
15:39:34 <ben_thatmustbeme> ... does it break implementations?
15:39:58 <ben_thatmustbeme> cwebber: it wouldn't break federation but it just wouldn't federate
15:40:04 <ben_thatmustbeme> sandro: isn't that broken?
15:40:18 <ben_thatmustbeme> eprodrom_: its like if something gets posted to the server but doesn't get posted publicly
15:40:34 <ben_thatmustbeme> tantek: do we know of a specific use-case for that?
15:40:40 <ben_thatmustbeme> q+
15:40:58 <ben_thatmustbeme> sandro: the reason for should would allow for flexibility for other things?
15:41:09 <ben_thatmustbeme> cwebber: another example would be for transient messages
15:41:16 <ajordan> q-
15:41:41 <ben_thatmustbeme> eprodrom_: a common case is uploading files for processing, like video files get transcoded on the server, they may not appear immediately
15:41:52 <sandro> I like SHOULD, given this need for flexibility
15:41:53 <ben_thatmustbeme> q-
15:42:12 <ben_thatmustbeme> eprodrom_: we can't think of it as a bad thing if it did happen
15:42:27 <eprodrom_> q?
15:42:29 <ben_thatmustbeme> tantek: whenever you change  a should to a must makes it more fragile
15:43:03 <ben_thatmustbeme> ... its best to start with MUST and drop to a SHOULD only if it breaks for someone
15:43:26 <ben_thatmustbeme> ... only go SHOULD if there is a specific use-case
15:43:53 <ben_thatmustbeme> cwebber: there is one case where it would break, which is transient activiites, which we have mentioned in other places in the spec
15:44:17 <ben_thatmustbeme> cwebber: rather we permit it, like for game activities that stick around
15:44:29 <ben_thatmustbeme> ... but we don't have really clear examples of it happening
15:44:54 <ben_thatmustbeme> sandro: you can say its a MUST except for transient activities or other things that might come along
15:45:34 <ben_thatmustbeme> eprodrom_: it doesn't actually have a time constraint,  if its delayed some amount of time, thats fine
15:45:48 <cwebber> > The server MUST then add this new Activity to the outbox collection, unless there is a specific reason that this object will never appear in the outbox, such as the object being transient or be used for side effects only.
15:45:56 <ben_thatmustbeme> ... even transient activiites can appear and then disappear, there is not requirement that they stay there
15:46:08 <ben_thatmustbeme> tantek: i like that interpretation
15:46:26 <ajordan> q+
15:46:33 <ben_thatmustbeme> eprodrom_: i think thats a common understanding of what a feed is, things don't get added right away, things change, things get removed without warning
15:46:49 <eprodrom_> PROPOSED: close issue https://github.com/w3c/activitypub/issues/219 with proposed text including "MUST"
15:46:50 <Loqi> [cwebber] #219 Make adding to outbox collection on client to server section a MUST?
15:46:54 <eprodrom_> +1
15:47:01 <eprodrom_> ben_thatmustbeme: thanks
15:47:18 <eprodrom_> ack ajordan
15:47:51 <ben_thatmustbeme> ajordan: is the proposed text we are dissing the one cwebber just posted to IRC?
15:47:52 <tantek> +1
15:48:06 <ben_thatmustbeme> cwebber: no, thats a more expanded version
15:48:17 <ben_thatmustbeme> ajordan:so we are discussing the one on github?
15:48:20 <ben_thatmustbeme> cwebber: yes
15:48:27 <ben_thatmustbeme> ajordan: can we add a note to that effect?
15:48:33 <ajordan> +1
15:48:52 <ben_thatmustbeme> ... as an implementor i wouldn't see that as obvious
15:49:11 <eprodrom_> PROPOSED: close issue https://github.com/w3c/activitypub/issues/219 with proposed text including "MUST" with explanatory note for exceptions
15:49:12 <Loqi> [cwebber] #219 Make adding to outbox collection on client to server section a MUST?
15:49:34 <ben_thatmustbeme> +1 not sure this needs a proposal any more, just resolve and adding note is up to editor discression
15:49:44 <eprodrom_> +1
15:50:01 <ajordan> +1
15:51:04 <ben_thatmustbeme> eprodrom: i think the concern is a client that posts a note and then immediately reads the outbox and expects it to be there
15:51:18 <cwebber> +1
15:51:18 <ben_thatmustbeme> ... we should explain that there are several reasons why it might not be there
15:51:40 <ben_thatmustbeme> tantek: in the interest of interop, i'm in favor of fewer caveats
15:51:48 <sandro> +1
15:51:55 <tantek> +1
15:52:06 <eprodrom> RESOLVED: close issue https://github.com/w3c/activitypub/issues/219 with proposed text including "MUST" with explanatory note for exceptions
15:52:06 <Loqi> [cwebber] #219 Make adding to outbox collection on client to server section a MUST?
15:52:22 <tantek> technically caveats not exceptions but ok
15:52:45 <tantek> (something appears briefly still apears, or something that appears later still appears, in the outbox)
15:53:24 <ben_thatmustbeme> sandro: we might want to talk about posibilities of extending the group
15:53:52 <ben_thatmustbeme> cwebber: i can wrap up AP quick i think
15:53:53 <cwebber> https://github.com/w3c/activitypub/issues/202
15:53:54 <Loqi> [mray] #202 SVG version tutorial Illustrations
15:54:28 <ben_thatmustbeme> ... i wanted to make sure before we approve the CR, we are okay with these images added
15:54:36 <cwebber> https://github.com/w3c/activitypub/issues/196
15:54:36 <Loqi> [annando] #196 How to differentiate between posts and private (direct) messages?
15:55:16 <tantek> q?
15:55:20 <ben_thatmustbeme> ... the other issue is this is too complex to discuss, this whole thing as flagging things as direct messages, if we do the CR now, this will come up again
15:55:25 <cwebber> https://w3c.github.io/activitypub/#changes-11-april-to-2-may
15:55:31 <tantek> and 219?
15:55:33 <ben_thatmustbeme> q+
15:55:46 <tantek> q?
15:55:55 <eprodrom> ack ben_thatmustbeme
15:56:36 <ben_thatmustbeme> ben_thatmustbeme: if there are possibly normative changes, should we wait on CR?
15:56:40 <tantek> with the set of changes in https://w3c.github.io/activitypub/#changes-11-april-to-2-may I think we should do a CR today
15:56:53 <ben_thatmustbeme> cwebber: what do you think sandro? can we wait?
15:57:04 <ben_thatmustbeme> sandro: it can wait another week
15:57:25 <ben_thatmustbeme> tantek: its not clear that we will have a solution next week either
15:57:52 <ben_thatmustbeme> ben_thatmustbeme:  i'm not saying we shouldn't do a CR, just asking that
15:58:10 <eprodrom> PROPOSED: new CR for ActivityPub with changes https://w3c.github.io/activitypub/#changes-11-april-to-2-may and changes to issue 219 and vector graphics
15:58:11 <cwebber> +1
15:58:12 <tantek> +1
15:58:15 <ajordan> +1
15:58:16 <ben_thatmustbeme> +1
15:58:26 <sandro> +1
15:58:26 <eprodrom> +1
15:58:43 <eprodrom> RESOLVED: new CR for ActivityPub with changes https://w3c.github.io/activitypub/#changes-11-april-to-2-may and changes to issue 219 and vector graphics
15:59:00 <tantek> https://github.com/w3c/websub/issues/97
15:59:00 <Loqi> [aaronpk] #97 Discussion for Host-Meta feature At Risk
15:59:38 <ben_thatmustbeme> tantek: websub, aaronpk looked for implementations that publish it and or depend on it, its sort of a last call for implementations of it
15:59:51 <ben_thatmustbeme> and his plan is to not implement a test for it
16:00:04 <ben_thatmustbeme> ... otherwise its assumed this at-risk feature is getting killed
16:00:13 <ben_thatmustbeme> TOPIC: extending the WG?
16:00:33 <ben_thatmustbeme> eprodrom: tantek, sandro, and I have been talking about if its possible for extending this group
16:00:48 <tantek> q?
16:00:54 <tantek> q+
16:00:58 <ben_thatmustbeme> ... there has been some push for activity streams, there has been a lot of interest with mastodon, and lots of implementation work
16:01:04 <eprodrom> ack tantek
16:01:06 <geppy> geppy has joined #social
16:01:08 <ben_thatmustbeme> ... i'd like to discuss this next week
16:01:29 <ben_thatmustbeme> tantek: i agree the last month has shown tremendous implementation update in all of our specs
16:02:11 <ben_thatmustbeme> ... from the mastodon phenomenon, to micro.blog, to LDN getting funding for impelmentations, i think we can make a case for that to recharter, we just have to figure out what that means
16:02:22 <tantek> s/funding for/more
16:02:26 <eprodrom> Thanks all
16:02:32 <ben_thatmustbeme> eprodrom: thanks everyone for your time
16:02:40 <tantek> ben_thatmustbeme++ for scribing
16:02:40 <Loqi> ben_thatmustbeme has 68 karma in this channel (208 overall)
16:02:49 <ajordan> ben_thatmustbeme++
16:02:49 <Loqi> ben_thatmustbeme has 69 karma in this channel (209 overall)
16:02:53 <ajordan> thank you!
16:03:31 <ben_thatmustbeme> trackbot end meeting
16:03:31 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
16:03:31 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been cwebber, eprodrom, KevinMarks, sandro, ajordan, tantek, ben_thatmustbeme
16:03:39 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
16:03:39 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/05/02-social-minutes.html trackbot
16:03:40 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
16:03:40 <RRSAgent> I see no action items