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19:58:25 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2017/05/02-sdwssn-irc
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19:58:27 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
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19:58:29 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be SDW
19:58:29 <Zakim> ok, trackbot
19:58:30 <trackbot> Meeting: Spatial Data on the Web Working Group Teleconference
19:58:30 <trackbot> Date: 02 May 2017
19:58:46 <ahaller2> RRSAgent, make logs public
19:58:55 <ahaller2> present+ ahaller2
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19:59:31 <mlefranc> present+
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20:03:45 <KJanowic> so 8:00 UTC after all
20:03:49 <KJanowic> present+
20:04:18 <DanhLePhuoc> present+ DanhLePhuoc
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20:04:34 <SimonCox> present+
20:04:48 <RaulGarciaCastro> present+ RaulGarciaCastro
20:05:28 <ahaller2> scribe: mlefranc
20:05:31 <ahaller2> scribenick: mlefranc
20:05:45 <ahaller2> topic: Approving last meeting's minutes https://www.w3.org/2017/04/25-sdwssn-minutes
20:05:52 <ahaller2> +1
20:05:53 <mlefranc> +1
20:05:55 <SimonCox> +1
20:05:55 <RaulGarciaCastro> +1
20:06:11 <KJanowic> +1
20:06:19 <DanhLePhuoc> +1
20:06:22 <ahaller2> topic: Patent Call https://www.w3.org/2015/spatial/wiki/Patent_Call
20:06:53 <ahaller2> topic: Progress on Action 334 to start a wiki page that describes option on aligning new observation with DUL
20:07:07 <KJanowic> q+
20:07:10 <ahaller2> https://www.w3.org/2015/spatial/track/actions/334
20:07:14 <ahaller2> ack KJanowic
20:07:24 <KJanowic> https://www.w3.org/2015/spatial/wiki/Events_and_Situations#Events.2C_Actions.2C_and_Situations
20:08:27 <mlefranc> KJanowic: oldssn:Observation subclassof dul:Situation, now ssn:Observation is aligned with dul:event
20:08:39 <mlefranc> ... dul:situation subclassof event, which is disjoint from event
20:08:51 <ClausStadler> present+ ClausStadler
20:09:00 <mlefranc> ... meaning oldssn:Observation equivalent with ssn:Observation cannot hold
20:09:08 <mlefranc> ... so where do we break ?
20:09:25 <mlefranc> ... we decided that oldssn would be where we break,
20:09:45 <mlefranc> ... because ssn is going to be the standard, and withstand longer
20:10:27 <mlefranc> ... there are now more little subtelties
20:10:32 <mlefranc> ... for example platform
20:11:09 <mlefranc> ... about the predicates: sixth bullet point, ...
20:11:55 <mlefranc> ... alignement of properties with associatedWith don't bring anything, except everything becomes instance of dul:Entity
20:12:32 <mlefranc> ... solution proposed: we can used general concepts and intuition axioms: we avoid unguarded domain and range restrictions
20:12:54 <mlefranc> ... so although we can't say oldssn:Observation equivalent with ssn:Observation,
20:13:32 <mlefranc> ... we could say: for all those things that have some sosa:hasResult property and is not a oldssn:Observation, then it is a sosa:Observation
20:13:58 <mlefranc> ... so we create local alignments
20:13:59 <ahaller2> +1 for KJanowic axioms!
20:14:02 <ahaller2> q?
20:14:37 <ahaller2> q?
20:14:46 <KJanowic> and Result and Deployment (which are not covered or broken, respectively)
20:14:51 <mlefranc> ahaller2: in favour to add local alignments
20:14:59 <ahaller2> q?
20:15:05 <KJanowic> q+
20:15:11 <SimonCox> Is it possible that the difficulty with the DUL alignment is (a) a misalignment in the original SSN-DUL design, or (b) an underlying difficulty in DUL?
20:15:40 <KJanowic> This is the axiom:  \exists old-ssn: observationResult.T \sqcap \not old-ssn:Observation \sqsubseteq SOSA:Observation
20:15:44 <ahaller2> q?
20:15:50 <mlefranc> mlefranc: would like to see implementation
20:15:53 <ahaller2> ack KJanowic
20:16:02 <SimonCox> If either of these is true, then I am not so interested in DUL 'getting in the way' of SSN/SOSA moving forward ...
20:17:21 <mlefranc> KJanowic: because we don't have domain and range axioms for properties, we can say: if someone uses a property that links x to y
20:17:50 <ahaller2> q+
20:18:05 <mlefranc> ... and x is not asserted to be a oldssn: something,
20:18:29 <mlefranc> ... then we could align x and y to the proper dul class
20:18:31 <ahaller2> ack ahaller
20:18:40 <mlefranc> * please check my minutes
20:18:55 <KJanowic> q+
20:19:23 <mlefranc> KJanowic: would be a partial alignment
20:19:44 <mlefranc> ... users of oldssn would need to remove part of their triples
20:20:32 <mlefranc> q+
20:20:36 <ahaller2> ack KJanowic
20:20:38 <ahaller2> ack mlefranc
20:20:41 <DanhLePhuoc> q+
20:21:22 <KJanowic> +1 to that!!!
20:22:00 <KJanowic> q+
20:22:22 <ahaller2> ack DanhLePhuoc
20:22:56 <mlefranc> ahaller2: we can have a note in the old observation class that says: instances of oldssn:Observation should migrate to ssn:Observation
20:23:15 <mlefranc> mlefranc: there may be side effects, we will have to wait for the wide review.
20:23:31 <ahaller2> q+
20:23:42 <mlefranc> ... don't really know actual oldssn implementations that heavily rely on the alignment to dul
20:24:09 <ahaller2> ack KJanowic
20:24:15 <mlefranc> DanhLePhuoc: I don't know if we addressed all the communities that have used ssn so far
20:24:25 <mlefranc> ... we need to wait for people to speak up
20:25:09 <DanhLePhuoc> +q
20:25:15 <mlefranc> KJanowic: I think it's better to help people to migrate
20:25:48 <mlefranc> ... three options for alignment: 1 no alignemnt 2 partial alignment, 3 migration
20:26:08 <ahaller2> ack ahaller
20:26:27 <SimonCox> so KJanowic suggest that it is OK to say 'these parts can be aligned, but those can't'
20:26:44 <mlefranc> ahaller2: if we don't align to dul anymore,
20:26:54 <KJanowic> I agree!
20:27:05 <KJanowic> Yes, this is why I favor breaking the old not the new
20:27:20 <ahaller2> q?
20:27:24 <ahaller2> ack DanhLePhuoc
20:27:42 <mlefranc> ... then for people that use the old ssn - dul alignment, it may happen that instance of new ssn:Observation becomes instance of dul:Situation
20:28:05 <KJanowic> +1 to Danh
20:28:09 <ahaller2> +1 to some note to tell you how to migrate
20:28:11 <mlefranc> DanhLePhuoc: let's do the alignment that is safe, and write a note about the gray area
20:28:56 <mlefranc> ... current alignment covers 70% of terms,
20:29:02 <KJanowic> This is exactly the partial alignment that the axiom does
20:29:16 <mlefranc> ... for the rest, people can use rules, or do something else
20:29:22 <mlefranc> +1
20:29:52 <KJanowic> Okay
20:30:44 <ahaller2> ACTION: Implement the proposed axiom to partially align observationResults of oldSSN to new SSN in the ontology files
20:30:44 <trackbot> Error finding 'Implement'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/2015/spatial/track/users>.
20:30:47 <ahaller2> q?
20:30:57 <ahaller2> topic: Progress on Action 335 and work plan for separate Note with Examples
20:31:12 <ahaller2> https://www.w3.org/2015/spatial/track/actions/335
20:31:44 <mlefranc> ahaller2: removed that from the document, wanted to discuss that here
20:32:16 <KJanowic> q+
20:32:26 <mlefranc> ... few mistakes spotted after the document was published in the TR space
20:32:35 <ahaller2> close ACTION-335
20:32:35 <trackbot> Closed ACTION-335.
20:32:40 <mlefranc> ... about figures for instance
20:32:40 <ahaller2> ack KJanowic
20:32:46 <mlefranc> q+
20:33:14 <mlefranc> KJanowic: aren't all alignemnt non-normative ?
20:33:21 <mlefranc> ahaller2: yes, but the one to o&m
20:33:40 <mlefranc> ... o&m implementation may become ssn implementation evidence
20:33:56 <mlefranc> ... the graphs must represent that
20:34:34 <mlefranc> KJanowic: but Phil told us that may not help to convince the director
20:34:46 <mlefranc> ahaller2: that's a gray area
20:35:21 <mlefranc> SimonCox: I can't advise on that
20:35:39 <mlefranc> ahaller2: we need Phil and Francois to help here
20:35:42 <ahaller2> q?
20:36:09 <KJanowic> q+
20:36:17 <mlefranc> SimonCox: at least things that are marked at risk can be dropped so that we can drop them later without going back to candidaterec track
20:36:33 <ahaller2> ack mlefranc
20:38:02 <mlefranc>  mlefranc: is it a good idea to have no examples ? recent discussions show that examples are crucial
20:38:24 <ahaller2> q?
20:38:44 <mlefranc> ahaller2: examples may be incorporated lated, the goal here is to freeze the change list
20:38:46 <ahaller2> ack KJanowic
20:39:22 <mlefranc> KJanowic: asking SimonCox about previous features at risk
20:39:33 <ahaller2> close Action 334
20:39:45 <ahaller2> close action-334
20:39:45 <trackbot> Closed action-334.
20:39:57 <mlefranc> close ACTION-334
20:39:57 <trackbot> Closed ACTION-334.
20:40:29 <mlefranc> SimonCox: new classes and properties in new OWL time ontology have no implementation yet,
20:40:54 <mlefranc> ... so we needed to mark those that have been discussed and introduced the latest: "at risk"
20:41:19 <mlefranc> ... to avoid that the whole documents fails passing the implementation evidence test
20:41:41 <KJanowic> thanks a lot!
20:41:45 <ahaller2> topic: What are properties/classes at risk (e.g. ssn:qualityOfObservation). Are there others?
20:42:32 <mlefranc> ahaller2: working draft will be early May, so we can start identifying classes and properties that are at risk
20:43:14 <ahaller2> q?
20:43:20 <RaulGarciaCastro> q+
20:43:23 <ahaller2> ack RaulGarciaCastro
20:44:24 <mlefranc> RaulGarciaCastro: if ssn:qualityOfObservation is marked at risk and has no implementation evidence, will it be removed, or become non-normative ?
20:44:54 <mlefranc> SimonCox: bits of the ontology may be non-normative
20:44:58 <mlefranc> q+
20:45:46 <mlefranc> ahaller2: if it's confusing in the working draft, why would you include them in the ontology ?
20:46:03 <mlefranc> SimonCox: or provide a second ontology that includes non-normative aixoms ?
20:46:09 <mlefranc> ahaller2: yes
20:46:19 <ahaller2> q?
20:46:23 <ahaller2> ack mlefranc
20:47:58 <ahaller2> q?
20:48:17 <KJanowic> q+
20:48:31 <mlefranc> mlefranc: let's be optimistic here, if some term that is marked at risk has no implementation evidence, we might be able to move them in a "non-normative" section
20:49:16 <DanhLePhuoc> +q
20:49:23 <mlefranc> ahaller2: we may mark some term at risk because we did not have enough time to discuss them
20:49:34 <ahaller2> ack KJanowic
20:50:00 <mlefranc> ... we will have to ask Phil and Francois about if we need to remove terms that are dropped from the ontology
20:50:57 <mlefranc> KJanowic: showing that we take wide review comments into account may be actually more important that we supposed yet
20:51:21 <mlefranc> ... we need to have more reviews, and show the Director that we took them into account
20:51:24 <KJanowic> sorry for jumping ahead
20:52:02 <mlefranc> ahaller2: maybe send emails to all ssn users individually
20:52:47 <ahaller2> q?
20:52:59 <mlefranc> ... for example recent email triggered issue https://www.w3.org/2015/spatial/track/issues/187
20:53:06 <ahaller2> ack DanhLePhuoc
20:53:13 <mlefranc> ...it's very important that we address these issues as fast as possible
20:53:43 <mlefranc> DanhLePhuoc: I sent review requests to iot.schema.org,
20:54:22 <ScottSimmons> ScottSimmons has joined #sdwssn
20:54:27 <DanhLePhuoc> https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/sdo-iot-sync/132-dZf0kTU
20:54:48 <mlefranc> ... and WoT-LD taskforce. Which is very crowded, I hope we will receive reviews soon
20:55:03 <mlefranc> ahaller2: of course reviewing takes some time
20:55:44 <mlefranc> DanhLePhuoc: in terms of implementation, if a new concept has a equivalentClass/equivalentProperty to the old one,
20:55:56 <mlefranc> q+
20:56:10 <ScottSimmons> present+ ScottSimmons
20:56:16 <mlefranc> ... then old ssn data that used that concept will become implementation evidence for the new term
20:56:44 <mlefranc> ahaller2: we will just mark classes and properties at risk if they had no impelmentation evidence
20:56:54 <mlefranc> q-
20:57:08 <ahaller2> ACTION: ahaller2 to mark classes/properties as at risk in the ED
20:57:10 <trackbot> Created ACTION-346 - Mark classes/properties as at risk in the ed [on Armin Haller - due 2017-05-09].
20:57:48 <mlefranc> ahaller2: I will send email to original users of SSN
20:57:57 <ahaller2> ACTION: ahaller2 to invite original users of SSN via personal email to review the document
20:57:57 <trackbot> Created ACTION-347 - Invite original users of ssn via personal email to review the document [on Armin Haller - due 2017-05-09].
20:58:22 <ahaller2> q?
20:58:28 <mlefranc> ... evidence that we covered public review comments is important
20:58:58 <ahaller2> topic: Feedback from Sergio José Rodríguez Méndez and https://www.w3.org/2015/spatial/track/issues/187 raised in response
21:01:10 <ahaller2> https://hal.archives-ouvertes.fr/hal-01467853
21:02:15 <mlefranc> ahaller2: the SAN ontology is parallel to core SSO in SSN, but for actuators
21:02:42 <mlefranc> ... we're ok to introduce effect class ?
21:02:43 <KJanowic> btw,weused san as input for out actuator work in SOSA
21:02:48 <ahaller2> q?
21:02:57 <roba> roba has joined #sdwssn
21:02:58 <KJanowic> q+
21:03:18 <ahaller2> ack KJanowic
21:03:39 <mlefranc> KJanowic: we used that actuator pattern, we have proof for that in the wiki
21:04:23 <mlefranc> ... do we really want to introduce Effect now, we know that Stimulus can't have instances
21:04:52 <mlefranc> ... every term needs implementation evidence or discussion to explain why they can't have
21:04:58 <ahaller2> q?
21:05:05 <KJanowic> okay
21:05:13 <mlefranc> ... if we don't need to have implementation evidence, then ok to introduce them. Else, no
21:05:29 <mlefranc> q+
21:05:54 <KJanowic> Can you asign an action to me? also for the dul axiomatization?
21:05:56 <ahaller2> ACTION: KJanowic to send email to Phil and Francois to clarify the need for implementation evidence for superclasses and documentation classes
21:05:57 <trackbot> Created ACTION-348 - Send email to phil and francois to clarify the need for implementation evidence for superclasses and documentation classes [on Krzysztof Janowicz - due 2017-05-09].
21:06:00 <ahaller2> q?
21:06:14 <ahaller2> ack mlefranc
21:06:15 <mlefranc> Fig 2. in https://hal.archives-ouvertes.fr/hal-01467853/document ---> Sensor produces Result vs Actuator consumes Input
21:07:32 <KJanowic> IMHO, it is too late to introduce major changes. we need to move on
21:09:01 <ahaller2> q?
21:09:09 <KJanowic> [I have to leave now]
21:09:43 <ahaller2> q?
21:10:12 <ahaller2> topic: Should ssn:hasProperty and ssn:isPropertyOf be included in SOSA?
21:10:58 <ahaller2> scribe: roba
21:11:01 <ahaller2> scribenick: roba
21:11:13 <mlefranc> https://www.w3.org/2015/spatial/wiki/Linking_Systems_and_Features_of_Interest
21:12:27 <roba> RaulGarcioCastro: foi is related to system only via Observtion class.
21:13:11 <roba> ...proposal is to move property to SOSA to allow sensors to be related to features without Observation
21:13:59 <mlefranc> https://www.w3.org/2015/spatial/wiki/Link_between_FeatureOfInterest_and_xxxProperty#What_is_an_instances_of_ssn:Property_.3F
21:14:06 <roba> mlefranc: question is whether observableProperty is a "general" property such as speed, or a feature property :"speed of this car"
21:15:01 <SimonCox> q+
21:16:01 <roba> ...withous hasProperty SOSA cannot support this,
21:16:52 <roba> armin: agree - users of SOSA must use the spedific property as documented. This doesnt solve the competency question
21:17:04 <SimonCox> http://registry.it.csiro.au/def/environment/_property
21:17:08 <roba> ...naming of properties is "pretty bad"
21:17:12 <ahaller2> q?
21:17:15 <ahaller2> ack SimonCox
21:18:25 <roba> SimonCox: when looking at sets of properties - are they individuals or properties of classes? QUDT has both.. bigger debate than here
21:18:52 <RaulGarciaCastro> It is not about moving Property
21:18:59 <RaulGarciaCastro> Property can stay at SSN
21:19:26 <roba> ... re move Property to SOSA - judgement re weight of SOSA
21:19:44 <mlefranc> q+
21:20:04 <roba> ...too much of a change at this point
21:21:26 <roba> ...type of property without knowing the feature of interest - but can also use features such as "the World" - properties cannot exist without Features in the OGC reference model.
21:21:45 <ahaller2> q?
21:21:48 <ahaller2> ack mlefranc
21:23:12 <roba> mlefranc: O&M and SSN were well aligned - the only question is whether hasProperty and isProperty to SOSA would enable SOSA to cover some important cases
21:23:47 <mlefranc> q+
21:24:03 <roba> ahaller2: discussion was these names were confusing - would prefer new name
21:24:13 <ahaller2> q?
21:24:17 <ahaller2> ack mlefranc
21:25:04 <roba> mlefranc: ok to rename, "quality" would be perceived as disjoint from "quantity"  - first step is to move, second step is to renames
21:25:18 <roba> s/renames/rename/
21:25:33 <ahaller2> q?
21:26:29 <SimonCox> BTW - we have some implementation evidence on SOSA samples, sampling, sampler (and sample-sample relationships!) emerging by our friends at Geoscience Australia
21:26:34 <ahaller2> q?
21:27:15 <roba> ahaller2: action item to create a PR - to  Raul. - for discussion
21:27:35 <ahaller2> ACTION: RaulGarciaCastro to issues pull request to move isPropertyOf hasProperty to SOSA, and propose different names/labels
21:27:35 <trackbot> Created ACTION-349 - Issues pull request to move ispropertyof hasproperty to sosa, and propose different names/labels [on Raúl García Castro - due 2017-05-09].
21:27:38 <ahaller2> q?
21:29:53 <roba> discussion of examples - updating PR against feedback (please paste in link to the feddback being discussed)
21:31:37 <ahaller2> ACTION: mlefranc to aggregate his examples from an earlier pull request and introduce them in the beginning of each section with the Observation/Actuation/Sampling figures
21:31:37 <trackbot> Created ACTION-350 - Aggregate his examples from an earlier pull request and introduce them in the beginning of each section with the observation/actuation/sampling figures [on Maxime Lefrançois - due 2017-05-09].
21:31:47 <ahaller2> q?
21:31:50 <ahaller2> topic: Work plan for implementation evidence http://w3c.github.io/sdw/ssn-usage/
21:32:14 <ahaller2> q?
21:32:36 <roba> ahaller2: who do we know is doing an implementation?
21:32:41 <DanhLePhuoc> q+
21:33:06 <roba> SimonCox: will help GA by review. After Review will be update of an operational system.
21:33:10 <ahaller2> ACTION: Simon to collaborate with Nicholas Car from Geoscience Australia on the SOSA implementation in their operational system
21:33:10 <trackbot> Created ACTION-351 - Collaborate with nicholas car from geoscience australia on the sosa implementation in their operational system [on Simon Cox - due 2017-05-09].
21:33:22 <ahaller2> ack DanhLePhuoc
21:33:53 <roba> DanhLePhuoc: will implement one NOAA dataset
21:34:11 <DanhLePhuoc> NOAA
21:34:27 <ahaller2> ACTION: DanhLePhuoc to coordinate one implementation evidence around SOSA/SSN in the NOAA dataset
21:34:27 <trackbot> Error finding 'DanhLePhuoc'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/2015/spatial/track/users>.
21:34:28 <ahaller2> q?
21:34:31 <mlefranc> q+
21:34:37 <roba> ...20K+ weather observations
21:36:04 <roba> ahaller2: will update historical climate dataset - small subset of terms
21:36:26 <roba> ...timeline is about 6 weeks
21:36:46 <ahaller2> ACTION: ahaller2 to implement SSN new in lab.environment.data.gov.au
21:36:47 <trackbot> Created ACTION-352 - Implement ssn new in lab.environment.data.gov.au [on Armin Haller - due 2017-05-09].
21:37:16 <roba> ClausStadler: not sure if my project will be available in time
21:37:19 <DanhLePhuoc> q+
21:37:34 <ahaller2> ack mlefranc
21:39:08 <ahaller2> ack DanhLePhuoc
21:40:41 <mlefranc> Modules to be covered once or twice: actuations / input-output / systems and subsystems / platforms and deployments / systemcapabilities, operatingranges, survivalranges
21:40:57 <ahaller2> ACTION: DanhLePhuoc to talk to people in Siemens to have an implementation in one of their Plugfests
21:40:57 <trackbot> Error finding 'DanhLePhuoc'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/2015/spatial/track/users>.
21:41:33 <ahaller2> ACTIOn: danh to talk to people in Siemens to have an implementation in one of their Plugfests
21:41:34 <trackbot> Created ACTION-353 - Talk to people in siemens to have an implementation in one of their plugfests [on Danh Le Phuoc - due 2017-05-09].
21:41:43 <roba> DanhLePhuoc: will explore possibilities in ioT plugfests
21:41:46 <ahaller2> q?
21:42:17 <ahaller2> q?
21:42:51 <RaulGarciaCastro> Bye!
21:43:01 <mlefranc> bye
21:43:02 <ahaller2> RRSAgent, draft minutes
21:43:02 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/05/02-sdwssn-minutes.html ahaller2
21:43:09 <SimonCox> make the minutes!
21:43:13 <ahaller2> done
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