06:36:59 RRSAgent has joined #wot-td 06:36:59 logging to http://www.w3.org/2017/04/28-wot-td-irc 06:37:15 MariaPoveda has joined #wot-td 06:38:28 scribe: Daniel 06:38:30 scribe: dape 06:38:33 scribenick: dape 06:39:02 SK: goes over agenda 06:39:06 .. action items 06:39:13 ... break out sessions in Osaka 06:39:29 present+ Kaz_Ashimura, Sebastian_Kaebisch, Daniel_Peintner, Feng_Zhang, Maria_Poveda, Yongjing_Zhang, Zoltan_Kis 06:39:30 ... TD model discussion (report from call this week) 06:39:55 ... Zoltan joined call.. overview about management discussion 06:40:03 ... any other agenda point? 06:40:14 TOPIC: Action Items 06:40:34 SK: TD and semantic annotations? 06:41:01 ohura has joined #wot-td 06:42:23 DP: started issue on JSON schema 06:42:39 ... Victor plans to add example to make our point even clearer 06:43:08 SK: plan to have more concrete proposal for Osaka 06:43:21 SK: next AI is about namespaces in TD 06:43:32 there is an issue about this https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/3 06:43:41 next issue https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/3 06:44:36 SK: Confusion whether we need year and month in namespace 06:44:51 ... it seems the reserved name is fine 06:44:55 q+ 06:45:31 SK:I am missing the discussion which vocabulary goes in which NS 06:45:39 present+ Achille_Zappa 06:45:55 ... we need clarification with that regard 06:46:00 present+ Fernando_Serena, Victor_Charpenay 06:46:12 Maria: use Excel file so far.. 06:46:26 ... it seems that WoT NS is the only one necessary 06:46:31 ... rest can be out of WoT TD 06:46:40 https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/10GeoL3k8set82bIhACUUM2jEKb7h-1WKRujUO7t_tE4/edit 06:47:00 ... will point to this spreadsheet in github 06:47:46 SK: another possibility would be to create PR by for example creating subfolder with examples etc cetera 06:48:55 DP: question about evolution of TD vocabulary.. no mean to indicate change with year/month 06:49:31 Maria: what I have seen that main NS points to latest version 06:49:47 ... one with version and one without year/month 06:50:10 SK: Might be an issue for already deployed devices 06:50:11 DarkoAnicic has joined #wot-td 06:50:29 present+ DarkoAnicic 06:50:56 q+ 06:51:04 Maria: Let's look at what spatial data people are doing 06:51:41 Fernando: if one need specific version.. need to add month/year... of not use canonical version 06:51:55 achille_z has joined #wot-td 06:53:02 q? 06:53:05 ack dape 06:53:17 zkis has joined #wot-td 06:53:57 Fernando: will add my comments to github issue 06:54:01 https://www.w3.org/2005/07/13-nsuri 06:54:21 Kaz: W3C has guidelines 06:55:39 https://www.w3.org/2017/04/26-wot-td-minutes.html 06:55:40 ... recommendation is YYYY/MM ... /ns etc is fine also 06:56:41 ... will check within W3C team also 06:56:51 ... should clarify our requirements first 06:58:07 present+ Achille Zappa 06:58:35 SK: Fernando suggests to have both... canonical uri points to latest YYYY/MM uri 06:58:54 https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description 06:59:08 Kaz: namespace uri and URL might be different... need to check though 06:59:54 SK: please use issue to share your view 07:00:09 TOPIC: breakout sessions in Osaka 07:00:12 q? 07:00:16 ach kaz 07:00:19 ack kaz 07:00:32 SK: I initiated 3 topics 07:00:39 https://www.w3.org/WoT/IG/wiki/F2F_meeting,_May_2017,_Osaka,_Japan#Plenary.2FBreakout_Topics 07:00:50 Fernando has joined #wot-td 07:00:56 s/namespace uri and URL might be different.../we don't usually configure a link from canonical namespace uri to dated namespace uri/ 07:00:59 SK: 1. TD model reflection (What is missing? How about the security and lifecycle aspect?) 07:01:51 ... we have to think about security and life cycle 07:02:11 SK: 1. Data type with semantic annotation based on JSON Schema 07:02:15 s/need to check though/need to check, though. btw, maybe using "www.w3.org/ns/wot-thing-description" as the namespace URI would make sense because we use "wot-thing-description" for the TD GitHub repository 07:02:24 s/1. Data type with semantic annotation based on JSON Schema/2. Data type with semantic annotation based on JSON Schema 07:03:00 ... would like to have a concrete proposal till Osaka 07:03:06 rrsagent, make log public 07:03:10 rrsagent, draft minute 07:03:10 I'm logging. I don't understand 'draft minute', kaz. Try /msg RRSAgent help 07:03:11 rrsagent, draft minutes 07:03:11 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/04/28-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 07:03:18 sK: 3. start discussion about TD serializations 07:03:22 s/rrsagent, draft minute// 07:03:40 ... collect ideas about what serialization...requirements etc cetera 07:03:54 q+ 07:04:15 SK: please add comments/topics 07:04:23 s/sK:/SK:/ 07:04:25 q? 07:04:29 ack D 07:04:56 Chair: Sebastian 07:05:04 Darko: Victor and myself discussed SSN ontology... which will become standard soon.. 07:05:20 ... will be Breakout... also as part of TD breakout 07:05:39 ... maybe joined breakout? 07:06:13 SK: To show it can e aligned? Sounds fine! 07:06:28 TOPIC: TD model discussion (cont.) 07:06:40 SK: good discussion on Wednesday 07:07:17 https://github.com/sebastiankb/wot-ontology/blob/master/diagrams/WoTOntology.svg 07:08:00 outcome see figure.. 07:08:18 Maria: Pull request still needed.. 07:08:31 s/Pull request/merging pull request 07:08:56 SK: model based on Marias proposal 07:09:01 Victor has joined #wot-td 07:09:27 ... top class Thing: renaming took place 07:11:10 ... in general we removed "longer" names 07:12:13 ... also made clear that uri's MUST be of class URI etc.. not just a string 07:13:05 ... discussed also whether zero interactions make sense 07:13:35 ... seems the case given that there might be a simple "overall" TD with just base information without actual interactions 07:13:56 ... similar renaming took place in other places 07:14:36 rrsagent, draft minutes 07:14:36 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/04/28-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 07:15:04 ... also added placeholders (optional elements) ... e.g., communication protocol 07:15:39 ... other vocabularies can be added 07:16:24 ... "blue" in figure means it gets removed 07:16:44 ... "red" stays for modifications 07:16:55 i still disagree about some renamings 07:17:22 Fernando: still unsure about renaming 07:18:04 ... semantic and schema/syntax names should not be coupled 07:18:28 ... ontology should not be aligned with schema 07:19:07 SK: developers might have different background 07:19:34 q+ 07:19:44 ... same naming facilitates the understanding 07:20:23 Maria: we can provide mappings 07:21:41 The more information are provided in the schema the easier for people from different backgrounds would be to understand the model, simplilfiying names get exactly the opposite, it is more difficult to understand de directionability of the properties 07:21:42 Fernando: the approach is to simple... people might want to extend model and use different naming 07:23:03 SK: fear additional complexity for these bindings 07:23:32 kaz_ has joined #wot-td 07:24:47 Maria: alignment can be done in 2 ways: align names or specify binding 07:25:04 ... not sure why one is better than the other 07:25:59 .... coupling might be good for WoT peoples.. nevertheless some other people will come up with new syntaxes anyway... and we need mappings anyway 07:26:19 q? 07:27:22 Fernando: for us the main consumer will be machines.. not humans... 07:27:41 ... due to the binding this works fine 07:27:49 .... we try to avoid strong coupling 07:28:16 ah ok... 07:29:15 SK: I agree semantic description not meant for humans.. 07:29:25 ... intent for TD is to have actually both 07:29:38 right. In fact, what you described is what has been done sor far. The JSON-LD context maps verbose OWL terms to shorter JSON keys 07:29:58 ... use power of semantic web AND being attractive for developers also 07:30:39 the problem here, from the point of view of non-semantic experts, was the lack of a visual representation of the TD model that would be independent of RDF 07:31:52 so, the simplest solution to the issue here is to produce another diagram for WoT developers where only JSON keys are mentioned 07:32:32 Maria: unfortunately I could not join the call on Wednesday 07:32:43 ... so in fact no general agreement 07:33:00 Victor: Maria and Fernando described what has be done so far 07:33:13 ... simplest solution is to have 2 diagrams 07:33:24 ... keep diagram that is consistent with ontology 07:33:37 ... another diagram used for Web developers 07:33:55 q+ 07:33:56 ... seconds diagram only uses JSON keys 07:34:08 ack Victor 07:35:20 Fernando: agree that we might want to describe semantic and syntactic world and its association 07:35:35 ... nevertheless we still think coupling is not good 07:36:53 Sebastian shows slide about OCF and oneM2M model 07:37:06 I thing coupling the naming between ontology and json will limit the reuse of other ontologies, you can not say the others to change their URIs, therefore this coupling strategy seems to have a short proyection IMO 07:37:20 SK: would like to point to other standardization groups also 07:37:53 Darko: There is disagreement... 07:38:02 ... so far no agreement 07:38:25 ... we have different proposal 07:38:35 ... none solved disagreement 07:39:08 ... current proposal in favor of web community and not semantic community 07:39:32 ... what do we need to agree/align? 07:40:09 q+ 07:40:11 ... let's stay with the name of the thing ... change name for interactions 07:40:39 ack DarkoAnicic 07:40:55 ... think this little change could solve disagreement 07:41:48 Maria: I am fine with using "name" 07:42:05 ... I do have problems with removing links 07:43:10 s/removing/renaming 07:43:16 q+ 07:43:40 ... also disagree with outputData and inputData 07:46:50 (some more discussion on schema.org) 07:47:39 q+ 07:47:43 ack m 07:47:45 ack v 07:49:07 kaz: suggests we collect requirements for our need 07:49:23 ... and if schema.org can be reused, that's fine 07:49:30 ... but if something is missing, we need to add that 07:50:34 seba: we should follow all the expectations 07:51:03 ... I'd understand what the problem is 07:51:24 fernando: would describe why mapping would not work 07:51:53 seba: ok 07:52:16 As I said there is no technical reason, unless you want to translate the ontology URIs. it is about good practices I already explained in the emails 07:52:58 In fact, what I proposed Sebastian is to provide a technical reason on why putting mappings in @context will not work in general 07:53:09 yingying has joined #wot-td