See also: IRC log
<SimonCox> Do we have audio?
<ahaller2> no
<SimonCox> Do you want me to set one up?
I still get 'host has not joined the meeting'
<SimonCox> CSIRO Webex details in email
<ahaller2> Thanks, let's all try to switch to Simon's webex invitation
<RaulGarciaCastro> Haven’t received the email yet
<mlefranc> * neither
<SimonCox> https://csiro.webex.com/csiro/j.php?MTID=m0bbed3808144f04d17c3ff9671a09109
"Your browser, browser version, or operating system is currently unsupported."
<SimonCox> Oh dear - sorry - what to do?
<ahaller2> mine only works in Safari
<ahaller2> you need to trust the connection, and that popup came only in safari for me, not in chrome nor firefox
<ahaller2> or do you want to call in via phone?
<SimonCox> https://conferencing.csiro.au/Call-in.php
<ahaller2> 1-844-267-3690
<ahaller2> +61-2-6246-4433 (Australia Canberra ACT)
should we simply use https://appear.in/ssn
<ahaller2> code: 571 853 648 #
<ahaller2> @KJanowic we are all on the webex, please try to call in, the US number is toll free
<mlefranc> * the appear.in other works well ?
<SimonCox> I closed the webex - I couldn't hear anyone
<SimonCox> Sorry
<DanhLePhuoc> I can create a Web from TUB
<DanhLePhuoc> https://meeting.tubit.tu-berlin.de/orion/joinmeeting.do?ED=etKfigG3Vw5b30P2qdO--w==
<ahaller2> danh, we are in the https://appear.in/ssn room
<ahaller2> scribe?
<ahaller2> @danh can you hear us?
<ahaller2> scirbe: KJanowic
<ahaller2> scribe: KJanowic
<ahaller2> scribenick: KJanowic
<ahaller2> +1
+1
<RaulGarciaCastro> +1
<SimonCox> +1
<mlefranc> +1
<mlefranc> +1
<DanhLePhuoc> +1
<DanhLePhuoc> I can't hear anything
Maxime: for now I removed the
axiom in question.
... At least reasoning-wise nothing would break for the
moment.
<ahaller2> http://w3c.github.io/sdw/ssn/#SSNX_Alignment
Kj: we may have to state that new ssn and old ssn are not alignable
ahaller2: subclassing?
kj: but they are likely disjoint
maxime: yes, they are.
ahaller: first step is to remove the axiom
<mlefranc> skos:changeNote "The Observation class in the initial SSN was defined to be a subclass of dul:Situation. To improve alignment with O&M and user expectations, as well as to follow a consistent modeling strategy for observations, sampling, and actuation, the new sosa:Observation class represents an activity. While we do not provide any normative alignments to DUL, this new Observation class is more in line with dul:Event instead of dul:Situation."@en
Danh: we may end up with an
inconsistent ontology. I would suggest to remove this alignment
and leave the rest.
... better to explain better what we did than to break the
alignment
I wanted to propose this was well
ahaller: what if we remove the alignment of new ssn to dul?
5.1.2 Class Alignments
<ahaller2> KJanowic: remove alignment in 5.1.2, to DUL:Event
<ahaller2> KJanowic: but who to "punish", either breaking the old ssn or new ssn, I would rather break the old one
<SimonCox> the old SSN was outcome of a W3C incubator - no formal status, so I agree with KJanowic
Maxime: even if we remove the
axiom,there may still be other problems later on due to domains
and ranges.
... I tried to esure that there is no inconsistency between old
and new.
Ahaller: lets first list the 3 possible solutions we have and vote
<ahaller2> PROPOSED: remove equivalentclass axiom from Observation to oldssn:Observation
+1
<ahaller2> +1
<mlefranc> 0
<RaulGarciaCastro> 0
<SimonCox> +1
<mlefranc> will make no difference because of the axioms. would need to propagate with inference
ahaller: you removed the axiom already, right?
maxime: may still propagate back
RESOLUTION: remove equivalentclass axiom from Observation to oldssn:Observation
<SimonCox> We should not compromise the Rec going forward
<SimonCox> Early adopters were aware of risk
<mlefranc> ok to remove sosa:Observation rdfs:subClassOf dul:Event
<SimonCox> and could be expected to be reasonably sophisticated
kj: early usage is going to go
away
... there will be minimal use of old ssn in the future. we do
this for historical purpose only. we will not have old-ssn and
new-ssn side by side in the future
ahaller2: so we are left with two solutions
<ahaller2> 1. Option: remove ssn:Observation subclassOf dul:event
<ahaller2> 2. Option: have no alignment axiom from ssn:Observation to DUL and propagate properties that have Observation as domain up the property hierarchy
<ahaller2> 2. Option: have alignment axiom from ssn:Observation to DUL:event and propagate properties that have Observation as domain up the property hierarchy
ahaller: maybe have an action
item to present *consistent* options
... align as well as possible but focus on not breaking
new-ssn
I can
if maxime and you help
<mlefranc> I can help
<ahaller2> ACTION: KJanowic to start a wiki page that describes option on aligning new Observation with DUL, considering that it is an Event, not a Situation [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2017/04/25-sdwssn-minutes.html#action01]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-334 - Start a wiki page that describes option on aligning new observation with dul, considering that it is an event, not a situation [on Krzysztof Janowicz - due 2017-05-02].
ahaller: important issue but we have to move on,next topic are issues from Raul's email
<RaulGarciaCastro> Can you hear me?
no
<RaulGarciaCastro> :S
maybe reload your browser tab
it should ask you for control of your mic
<RaulGarciaCastro> I already granted
<RaulGarciaCastro> Let’s reload
Raul: click on the cam/mic button on the top (middle) of the page
<RaulGarciaCastro> I switched to Chrome
maxime: the example we have is good but can one running example address all the many cases we want to capture? Maybe we can merge both, the old example and the new one.
ahaller2: we can have multiple examples
<SimonCox> Also need Forecasting example
ahaller: work on the examples and add them to the final document but not to the current draft
kj: one section not within the specs
ahaller: I agree
yes
Raul: the idea is to have a primer, right?
ahaller: depends on whether there will be a follow-up group
<RaulGarciaCastro> What I wanted to say is that producing a primer is not a trivial effort
ahaller2: the question is more whether we should have examples in the current version
agree with raul
ahaller2: example can be a note like ssn usage
<ahaller2> PROPOSED: Examples in the main WD
-1
<ahaller2> 0
<SimonCox> -1
<mlefranc> 0
<RaulGarciaCastro> 0 (don’t know if we have time)
<DanhLePhuoc> 0
<ahaller2> PROPOSED: Examples in a seperate Note document
+1
<ahaller2> 0
<mlefranc> 0
<mlefranc> 0
<SimonCox> +1
ahaller: voting -1 on this one means moving it to a potential follow-up group
<RaulGarciaCastro> 0 (but would be nice to have)
kj: if we postpone, it can easily take 1-2 years
RESOLUTION: Examples in a seperate Note document
dog: [inaudible]
<ahaller2> ACTION: ahaller2 remove axiom for ssn:Observation to oldssn:Observation [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2017/04/25-sdwssn-minutes.html#action02]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-335 - Remove axiom for ssn:observation to oldssn:observation [on Armin Haller - due 2017-05-02].
ahaller2: we can get a WD next week
kj: imho, we need to discuss the figures as well
<ahaller2> Contributor: (ordered alphabetically) Rob Atkinson, Raul Garcia Castro, Josh Liebermann, Chris Little, Sefki Kolozali, Scott Simmons, Claus Stadler
ahaller: we should have a contributor section in the document
<SimonCox> Chris Little made a few comments on forecasts, but I doubt he will push
-1 to statistics
<ahaller2> PROPOSED: Contributor: (ordered alphabetically) Rob Atkinson, Raul Garcia Castro, Josh Liebermann, Claus Stadler
<ahaller2> +1
<mlefranc> 0
<RaulGarciaCastro> +1
0 (dislike alphabetic order)
<SimonCox> +1
Okay, so I change my vote to +1
RESOLUTION: Contributor: (ordered alphabetically) Rob Atkinson, Raul Garcia Castro, Josh Liebermann, Claus Stadler
ahaller: we can revisit this for the papers
<ahaller2> ACTION: ahaller to update the WD with contributor list [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2017/04/25-sdwssn-minutes.html#action03]
<trackbot> Error finding 'ahaller'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/2015/spatial/track/users>.
<ahaller2> ACTION: ahaller2 to update the WD with contributor list [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2017/04/25-sdwssn-minutes.html#action04]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-336 - Update the wd with contributor list [on Armin Haller - due 2017-05-02].
ahaller: editor list will be
decided offline; we are out of time
... editor's draft out for review, move to WD
<ahaller2> PROPOSED: Editors draft with changes from today to become our final WD prior to rec track
<SimonCox> +1
<RaulGarciaCastro> +1 (but I would try to implement some of the trivial issues I spotted)
Simon: next step would be Candidate Rec in ogc
<ahaller2> +1
<SimonCox> WD == OGC Discussion Paper
<mlefranc> +1
<SimonCox> Candidate Rec = RFC
<RaulGarciaCastro> I can
<RaulGarciaCastro> I’m sorry!
Simon: can you scribe, I can barely hear raul
<ahaller2> I cannot hear Raul at all
<RaulGarciaCastro> Sorry
<ahaller2> http://www.w3.org/ns/ssn/OperatingProperty
ahaller2: we can remove the first one -- as raul proposed
<RaulGarciaCastro> I propose merging both
ahaller2: we have many cases like this
maxime: For now, the only redundant issue are related to cardinalities.
<RaulGarciaCastro> As an example for Observation:
<RaulGarciaCastro> Taking as an example the Observation class, the documentation states:
<RaulGarciaCastro> sosa:madeBySensor must be exactly 1 sosa:Sensor
<RaulGarciaCastro> sosa:madeBySensor must be sosa:Sensor
<RaulGarciaCastro> However, this is not a direct translation of the implementation, because
<RaulGarciaCastro> the cardinality axiom is not qualified:
<RaulGarciaCastro> rdfs:subClassOf [ a owl:Restriction ; owl:onProperty
<RaulGarciaCastro> sosa:madeBySensor ; owl:cardinality "1"^^xsd:nonNegativeInteger ] ;
<RaulGarciaCastro> rdfs:subClassOf [ a owl:Restriction ; owl:onProperty
<RaulGarciaCastro> sosa:madeBySensor ; owl:allValuesFrom sosa:Sensor ] ;
kj: fine with me
<RaulGarciaCastro> My issue is related on how to document the axioms; not in the axioms themselves
ahaller: leave two sentences or condense to 1
kj: use 2
ahaller2: or rephrase
simon: not Manchester syntax
maxime: not exactly what we stated in the axioms
<SimonCox> "sosa:madeBySensor exactly 1 sosa:Sensor" is Manchester syntax
<SimonCox> it translates to two Restrictions
<ahaller2> PROPOSED: Remove Range Class from unquantified restrictions
remove fully quantified cardinality restrictions if we do not have them in the ontology
<mlefranc> remove the name of the class in the cardinality restriction sentences in the documentation
<RaulGarciaCastro> in other words: the axioms documentation should directly align with the axioms in the ontology
turn fully quantified cardinality restrictions into unquantified cardinality restrictions
<mlefranc> * kj : qualified, not quantified
<ahaller2> PROPOSED: the axioms documentation should directly align with the axioms in the ontology
<ahaller2> +1
<RaulGarciaCastro> +1
<mlefranc> +1
<RaulGarciaCastro> But they have the documentation two lines above
+1
<SimonCox> +1
RESOLUTION: the axioms documentation should directly align with the axioms in the ontology
<ahaller2> ACTION: mlefranc to implement "the axioms documentation should directly align with the axioms in the ontology" [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2017/04/25-sdwssn-minutes.html#action05]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-337 - Implement "the axioms documentation should directly align with the axioms in the ontology" [on Maxime Lefrançois - due 2017-05-02].
[I have to leave in ~2min]
ahaller2: We can deprecate terms later
<RaulGarciaCastro> KJanowic: if you have any comment of the figures, send me an email (or to the list)
maxime: it is a feature at risk
simon: doing the same for
owl-time
... we need to mark them as 'at risk' now to avoid delays
later
can even be in the Candidate Rec
<ahaller2> ACTION: ahaller2 to include agenda item next week on properties/classes at risk [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2017/04/25-sdwssn-minutes.html#action06]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-338 - Include agenda item next week on properties/classes at risk [on Armin Haller - due 2017-05-02].
<mlefranc> action on someone to propose a list of features at risk ?
<trackbot> Error finding 'on'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/2015/spatial/track/users>.
[ I have to leave now]
yes
<ahaller2> PROPOSED: Issue Editor's draft as WD pending changes from todays' meeting
+1
<ahaller2> +1
<RaulGarciaCastro> +1
<mlefranc> +1
<SimonCox> +1
<DanhLePhuoc> +1
RESOLUTION: Issue Editor's draft as WD pending changes from todays' meeting
<mlefranc> scribe: mlefranc
<ahaller2> ACTION: ahaller2 update documentation to align documentation of ssn:hasProperty [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2017/04/25-sdwssn-minutes.html#action07]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-339 - Update documentation to align documentation of ssn:hasproperty [on Armin Haller - due 2017-05-02].
<RaulGarciaCastro> If you see the figure, it fits well there: http://w3c.github.io/sdw/ssn/images/SSN-Observation.png
ahaller2: significant change, can discuss this one now ?
<RaulGarciaCastro> +1 to move them to sosa
mlefranc: +1 to move them to sosa
<RaulGarciaCastro> No, only the properties, not Property
<RaulGarciaCastro> We are making something similar with Systems
SimonCox: would that force us to introduce ssn:Property to sosa ?
<RaulGarciaCastro> But we are doing the same thing with System
SimonCox: domainIncludes and rangeIncludes could be used to avoid importing ssn:Property to sosa
<ahaller2> ACTION: ahaller2 to add agenda item on moving of ssn:hasProperty and ssn:isPropertyOf for our next meeting [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2017/04/25-sdwssn-minutes.html#action08]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-340 - Add agenda item on moving of ssn:hasproperty and ssn:ispropertyof for our next meeting [on Armin Haller - due 2017-05-02].
<SimonCox> multiple domainIncludes rangeIncludes imply a superclass (in this case ssn:Property)
<RaulGarciaCastro> Yes
<RaulGarciaCastro> (to Maxime)
SimonCox: the history is that they were not in sosa in the first place
<SimonCox> hasResult rangeIncludes Sample
SimonCox: domainIncudes and rangeIncludes will be used to link from hasResult and isResultOf to Sample
<SimonCox> isResultOf domainIncludes Sample
<ahaller2> PROPOSED: to move hasResultingSample/isSamplingResultOf from SOSA to SSN and update the schema:domainRange and schema:domainIncludes
<SimonCox> in SSN: Sample subclassof Result
<SimonCox> Sampling hasResult only Sample
SimonCox: and add some axioms to hasResult in ssn
<ahaller2> PROPOSED: Remove hasResultingSample/isSamplingResultOf in SOSA, update the schema:domainRange and schema:domainIncludes and add axioms to hasResult
<RaulGarciaCastro> +1
+1
<ahaller2> +1
<SimonCox> +1
RESOLUTION: Remove hasResultingSample/isSamplingResultOf in SOSA, update the schema:domainRange and schema:domainIncludes and add axioms to hasResult
<ahaller2> ACTION: SimonCox to make changes according to hasResultingSample in the WD and the SSN and SOSA ontologies [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2017/04/25-sdwssn-minutes.html#action09]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-341 - Make changes according to hasresultingsample in the wd and the ssn and sosa ontologies [on Simon Cox - due 2017-05-02].
<RaulGarciaCastro> The last one is important
<ahaller2> ACTION: mlefranc harmonise name for isActuatedBy to madeByActuator [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2017/04/25-sdwssn-minutes.html#action10]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-342 - Harmonise name for isactuatedby to madebyactuator [on Maxime Lefrançois - due 2017-05-02].
<RaulGarciaCastro> The one regarding the “Results section” is maybe something one editor can make
<RaulGarciaCastro> No discussion needed
<RaulGarciaCastro> OK
<RaulGarciaCastro> Bye!
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.152 of Date: 2017/02/06 11:04:15 Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/ Guessing input format: Irssi_ISO8601_Log_Text_Format (score 1.00) Succeeded: s/appean/appear/ Succeeded: s/rfc/Candidate Rec/ Present: ahaller2 DanhLePhuoc RaulGarciaCastro KJanowic Found Scribe: KJanowic Found ScribeNick: KJanowic Found Scribe: mlefranc Inferring ScribeNick: mlefranc Scribes: KJanowic, mlefranc ScribeNicks: KJanowic, mlefranc WARNING: No meeting chair found! You should specify the meeting chair like this: <dbooth> Chair: dbooth Found Date: 25 Apr 2017 Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2017/04/25-sdwssn-minutes.html People with action items: ahaller ahaller2 axiom documentation for harmonise isactuatedby kjanowic mlefranc name observation remove simoncox ssn update WARNING: Input appears to use implicit continuation lines. You may need the "-implicitContinuations" option.[End of scribe.perl diagnostic output]
