16:36:55 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aria
16:36:55 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2017/04/20-aria-irc
16:36:55 <joanie> chair: Joanmarie_Diggs
16:36:55 <joanie> RRSAgent, make log public
16:36:55 <joanie> agenda?
16:36:57 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
16:37:00 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be
16:37:00 <Zakim> I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot
16:37:00 <trackbot> Meeting: Accessible Rich Internet Applications Working Group Teleconference
16:37:00 <trackbot> Date: 20 April 2017
16:37:11 <Rich> Rich has joined #aria
16:37:13 <joanie> clear agenda
16:37:32 <joanie> agenda: this
16:37:32 <joanie> agenda+ Welcoming Job van Achterberg (new Invited Expert)
16:37:32 <joanie> agenda+ Personalization CfC
16:37:32 <joanie> agenda+ ARIA 1.2: Do it or not?
16:37:34 <joanie> agenda+ Implementations - Progress update
16:37:36 <joanie> agenda+ Testable statements - Progress update
16:37:39 <joanie> agenda+ ATTAs - Progress update
16:37:41 <joanie> agenda: be done
16:37:44 <joanie> agenda?
16:38:16 <joanie> regrets: Jason_Duan
16:39:08 <MichielBijl> present+
16:49:27 <jkva> present+
16:55:44 <joanie> present+ Joanmarie_Diggs
16:55:51 <jongund> jongund has joined #aria
17:01:35 <MichaelC> present+
17:01:51 <Rich> present+ Rich_Schwerdtfeger
17:02:28 <clown> clown has joined #aria
17:03:13 <Rich> scribeNick: MichielBijl
17:03:35 <MichielBijl> RRSAgent, make minutes
17:03:35 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/04/20-aria-minutes.html MichielBijl
17:03:55 <MichielBijl> RRSAgent, make log public
17:04:35 <clown> present+ Joseph_Scheuhammer
17:04:50 <joanie> Zakim, who is here?
17:04:50 <Zakim> Present: Joanmarie_Diggs, Joseph_Scheuhammer, MichielBijl, Stefan, janina, jkva, MichaelC, Rich_Schwerdtfeger
17:04:52 <Zakim> On IRC I see clown, jongund, Rich, RRSAgent, jkva, MichaelC, Zakim, janina, JonathanNeal_, ShaneM, joanie, timeless, yatil, MichielBijl, slightlyoff, AmeliaBR, Josh_Soref, trackbot
17:04:54 <janina> present+
17:05:19 <Stefan> Stefan has joined #aria
17:05:36 <jamesn> jamesn has joined #aria
17:05:39 <MichielBijl> zakim, take up next
17:05:39 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Welcoming Job van Achterberg (new Invited Expert)" taken up [from joanie]
17:05:47 <Stefan> present+
17:05:54 <MichielBijl> JD: We have a new person, yay new person
17:06:03 <MichielBijl> Job van Achterberg / jkva
17:06:09 <MichielBijl> You can introduce yourself
17:06:28 <MichielBijl> JA: I’m Job van Achterberg, from the Netherlands, 34
17:06:36 <MichielBijl> My wife is Mallory, whom you might know
17:06:48 <MichielBijl> I’m a co-organiser of role=drinks together with Michiel
17:06:59 <MichielBijl> I also run inclusive design meetup in NL
17:07:03 <MichielBijl> I also write PHP
17:07:09 <MichielBijl> s/PHP/Python/
17:07:21 <MichielBijl> All: Welcome!
17:07:36 <MichielBijl> JD: I recently became a co-chair of this group
17:07:42 <MichielBijl> Dev for Orco screen reader
17:08:00 <MichielBijl> Periodically do WebKit etc implementations of ARIA stuff.
17:08:01 <jongund> present+ jongund
17:08:03 <mck> mck has joined #aria
17:08:14 <MichielBijl> RS: Co-chair of this group
17:08:17 <MichielBijl> Used to be at IBM
17:08:27 <MichielBijl> Live in Bon Aireeadsd
17:08:42 <jkva> Bonaire
17:08:56 <mck> present+ matt_king
17:09:23 <MichielBijl> s/Bon Aireeadsd/Bonaire/
17:09:30 <MichielBijl> MB: I’m a dinosaur
17:09:40 <MichielBijl> JS: I’ve been part of this group for a while
17:09:49 <MichielBijl> Also part of other groups  and chair of the APA
17:10:13 <MichielBijl> SS: I’m Stefan from Germany
17:10:21 <MichielBijl> I come from the applicability of ARIA
17:10:29 <MichielBijl> I joined this group about 5 years ago
17:10:41 <MichielBijl> It’s a nice working environment
17:10:48 <MichielBijl> I encourage you to take part
17:10:57 <MichielBijl> JN: I’ve met Job a couple of times already
17:11:01 <MichielBijl> Work for Oracle
17:11:07 <MichielBijl> Work on WCAG and APG
17:11:25 <MichielBijl> MK: I’m Matt King, work for Facebook
17:11:35 <MichielBijl> Think Rich brought me into this group around 2010
17:11:38 <MichielBijl> Editor on the APG
17:11:55 <MichielBijl> Used to be at IBM, that’s where I met Rich
17:12:11 <MichielBijl> MC: I’m the staff contact for the ARIA WG.
17:12:43 <MichielBijl> JG: I’m from the University of Illinois
17:12:50 <MichielBijl> Work on making their stuff more accessible
17:12:56 <MichielBijl> Been part of the ARIA WG for a long time
17:13:00 <MichielBijl> Also work on the APG
17:13:08 <MichielBijl> And on the ARIA testing with Joanie
17:13:30 <MichielBijl> JS: I work at the Accessibility Research centre in Toronto
17:13:35 <MichielBijl> Also worked on the …
17:13:57 <MichielBijl> Previous editor of the APG
17:14:03 <MichielBijl> Now editor of core-aam
17:14:19 <MichielBijl> This will be my second last meeting
17:14:29 <MichielBijl> I’ll be deserting you all at the end of the month
17:15:06 <MichielBijl> s/deserting/leaving/
17:16:07 <MichielBijl> RS: Want to thank Joseph for all he’s done
17:16:37 <MichielBijl> topic: Joseph leaving
17:16:50 <MichielBijl> RS: Joseph was a great editor!
17:17:03 <MichielBijl> MK: He was always able to find anything faster than anyone else
17:17:31 <MichielBijl> JS: Thank you all!
17:17:33 <jongund> sorry to see go Joseph
17:17:50 <Irfan> Irfan has joined #aria
17:17:53 <jongund> We have done a great job, you will be missed
17:17:55 <MichielBijl> JD: I’ve tried to convince him to stay, but alas
17:18:09 <MichielBijl> We can’t replace you Joseph
17:18:24 <MichielBijl> We do have a dutch man to plug some holes now though
17:18:39 <MichielBijl> MC: The door is always open if you want to re-join
17:18:52 <MichielBijl> zakim, take up next item
17:18:52 <Zakim> agendum 3. "ARIA 1.2: Do it or not?" taken up [from joanie]
17:19:02 <MichielBijl> zakim, take up item 2
17:19:02 <Zakim> agendum 2. "Personalization CfC" taken up [from joanie]
17:19:09 <joanie> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-aria-admin/2017Apr/0001.html
17:19:24 <MichielBijl> JD: About 10 days ago Rich put out a CFC
17:19:31 <MichielBijl> To do a FPWD
17:19:43 <MichielBijl> for Advance COGA Semantics to Enable Personalization
17:20:41 <MichielBijl> The CFC passes with no objections
17:21:29 <MichielBijl> zakim, take up item 3
17:21:29 <Zakim> agendum 3. "ARIA 1.2: Do it or not?" taken up [from joanie]
17:22:33 <MichielBijl> RS: Situation: W3C management mesures on deliverables
17:22:37 <MichielBijl> of specifications
17:22:42 <MichielBijl> Like the HTML AAM
17:23:01 <MichielBijl> They depend on us, they link to all of our documents, it’s the basis of it
17:23:27 <MichielBijl> Not everybody is contributing on ARIA
17:23:52 <MichielBijl> Most work falls to three people particularly Joseph and Joanie
17:24:12 <MichielBijl> Some people prioritise other things over ARIA
17:24:22 <MichielBijl> For example work on APG instead of ARIA
17:24:40 <MichielBijl> This happened with 1.0 and we can’t have it happen with 1.1
17:24:47 <Irfan> Hello Everyone! This is Irfan from ETS. I just want to introduce myself here with the group. I work as accessibility engineer here at ETS.
17:25:08 <Irfan> yes I am
17:25:26 <MichielBijl> *scribe lost*
17:25:56 <MichielBijl> RS: There is a clear disconnect between what W3C management believes we should be doing, and what the group thinks they should be doing
17:26:08 <MichielBijl> Michael, did I mis-state anything?
17:26:29 <MichielBijl> MC: It’s a complicated situation
17:26:39 <MichielBijl> Philip is focused on the rec channel
17:27:04 <MichielBijl> If we don’t make our delivery dates they have to make radical changes that we don’t want
17:27:36 <joanie> s/Philip/Philippe/
17:27:43 <MichielBijl> RS: We should ask ourselves whether we should do 1.2, and whether we should continue as a WG after 1.1
17:28:09 <MichielBijl> Not saying APG is not a priority
17:28:20 <MichielBijl> Also want to thank all the APG members for all the work they do
17:28:31 <MichielBijl> However, we need to focus on getting ARIA 1.1 out the door
17:28:52 <MichielBijl> MC: We need to find a short term way to a ?? and b getting it done in that time frame
17:29:19 <MichielBijl> RS: Will point out this is not limited to APG
17:29:36 <MichaelC> q+
17:29:42 <MichielBijl> We’ve had some members dropping in and out for long periods of time
17:29:51 <MichielBijl> They’ve been helpful while they’re here
17:30:04 <MichielBijl> But the consistency isn’t what we’d like it to be
17:30:36 <MichielBijl> JN: ??? is doing work on the APG
17:30:42 <MichielBijl> MK: I’m trying to lure him back in
17:30:48 <MichielBijl> I’m not sure how this is frame
17:30:52 <MichaelC> q+ to talk about how W3M perceives Member interest
17:30:53 <MichielBijl> s/frame/framded/
17:31:13 <MichielBijl> s/framded/framed/
17:31:32 <MichielBijl> You said there is a disconnect and working group membership, that’s a problem
17:31:36 <joanie> s/???/Aaron Leventhal/
17:31:47 <MichielBijl> And number two there is a skillset disconnect
17:32:02 <clown> s/I work at the Accessibility Research centre in Toronto/I work at the Inclusive Design Research Centre at OCAD University in Toronto/
17:32:03 <MichielBijl> Is there a third problem?
17:32:20 <MichielBijl> Those are the two I’m hearing right now
17:32:39 <MichielBijl> RS: There’re resources that can do testing, that are working on the APG
17:32:52 <MichielBijl> I’ve done a bunch of test harness stuff this week
17:33:05 <MichielBijl> What we need is people working on APG to do testing
17:33:56 <MichielBijl> MK: Maybe a third problem is that everyone understands which work has to be done
17:34:49 <MichielBijl> MK ??
17:35:07 <MichielBijl> JD: The one for ATK and ATPS are done and work even better
17:35:18 <MichielBijl> MK: So you’ve done two platforms?
17:35:28 <MichielBijl> Jon, I was under the impression that you made good progress?
17:35:29 <joanie> s/ATPS/AT-SPI2/
17:35:56 <MichielBijl> Maybe part of this is making sure that we all understand what the game plan is
17:36:00 <MichielBijl> And where it stands
17:36:19 <Rich> q?
17:36:26 <jongund> q+
17:36:30 <joanie> s/The one/I've developed one for AXAPI, though it's not in a public repository. And it works quite well. The one I did/
17:36:36 <MichielBijl> Would make it easier for people to figure out how and where to contribute
17:37:08 <MichielBijl> MC: If we tell the management that we’re not going to make the deadlines
17:37:25 <MichielBijl> The management will see that as members not seeing ARIA as a priority
17:37:38 <MichielBijl> While most members do see it as a priority
17:37:46 <MichaelC> ack me
17:37:46 <Zakim> MichaelC, you wanted to talk about how W3M perceives Member interest
17:37:57 <MichielBijl> The problem is that we need to show the management that it is a priority
17:38:27 <MichielBijl> MK: Browser implementers, the critical part, are missing
17:38:44 <MichielBijl> MC: We’re not the only group struggling with that.
17:38:51 <MichielBijl> We need to press them on that
17:39:14 <MichielBijl> RS: Not just our group, HTML, SVG, among others also have this issue
17:40:00 <MichielBijl> The only time I see browser vendors is weeks after a decision is made they have an issue with.
17:40:27 <MichielBijl> Jon, I know you’ve been working on this, how far away are you from having your test integrate with Joanie’s?
17:40:40 <MichielBijl> JG: We have some Python versioning issues
17:40:51 <MichielBijl> Joanie works in Python 3 and we use version
17:40:57 <MichielBijl> s/version/version 2/
17:41:09 <MichielBijl> We need to adapt it to run in Version 2
17:42:45 <MichielBijl> *something about Python*
17:43:51 <MichielBijl> RS: Job can you work with Jon to work this out?
17:44:03 <MichielBijl> JA: If I can get some more details, sure
17:44:09 <MichielBijl> We can work this out in another channel
17:44:45 <MichielBijl> MK: Doesn’t NVDA also work with different prog languages?
17:44:48 <MichielBijl> JG: Yes they do
17:47:16 <MichielBijl> JD: To be clear, if you’re doing it in Python 2, you can do separately
17:47:26 <MichielBijl> It doesn’t have to work with my stuff
17:47:32 <MichielBijl> Just port it to Python 2
17:47:40 <MichielBijl> It would be a separate project
17:47:50 <MichielBijl> RS: So we’d be doing it twice?
17:48:12 <MichielBijl> JD: No, it would different, it will not interact with my code
17:48:32 <MichielBijl> RS: So if you change something, Jon would have to do it again?
17:48:36 <MichielBijl> JD: No
17:48:51 <MichielBijl> RS: Would it be better for Jon to do it in Python 3?
17:48:57 <MichielBijl> RS: Yes, that would be easier for the code
17:49:05 <MichielBijl> s/RS/JD/
17:49:22 <MichielBijl> RS: Is there a reason you can’t use Python 3?
17:49:57 <MichielBijl> JG: It’s a complex library, but if you have a Python guru around that can help
17:50:07 <MichielBijl> RS: Is it a bug in the library or in python?
17:50:11 <MichielBijl> JG: Not sure yet
17:50:28 <MichielBijl> JG: Would prefer to do it in 2.7
17:51:11 <MichielBijl> JG: We’ll take Joanie’s code and port it to 2.7
17:51:30 <MichielBijl> *techie stuff*
17:55:21 <MichielBijl> MK: What are our jobs once we have the automated testing tools?
17:55:30 <MichielBijl> RS: We have to run the tests
17:55:44 <MichielBijl> Microsoft have sad that they won’t be working on the harness for 1.1
17:55:57 <MichielBijl> s/have sad/said/
17:56:18 <MichielBijl> We can generate the files for manual testing
17:56:35 <MichielBijl> We will have bugs in the test harness due to little nuances here and there
17:57:43 <MichielBijl> What I prefer happen, is getting people assigned to run the tests
17:58:49 <MichielBijl> JD: Don’t need volunteers for my platform, we need people for Windows
17:59:04 <MichielBijl> I’ve been filing bugs for ATK
17:59:57 <MichielBijl> https://twitter.com/detonite/status/854334793739378691
18:01:15 <MichielBijl> RS: Jon, thank you for what you’re doing and please continue, you’re on the critical path!
18:01:48 <MichielBijl> RS: Joanie, will Jon’s work merge into the general dashboard that shows the results?
18:02:11 <MichielBijl> JD: You download some JSON and that has the results
18:03:27 <MichielBijl> JG: Matt, so I should put APG aside and focus on the test harness?
18:03:31 <MichielBijl> MK: Yes
18:04:16 <MichielBijl> I think there’re some issues the group needs to talk about regarding priorities and such
18:04:42 <MichielBijl> I do see some differences between REC track and non-REC track stuff
18:04:49 <MichielBijl> It seems to be a common problem
18:07:39 <MichielBijl> RS: Bottom line is that we need to get ARIA 1.1 is finished
18:08:17 <MichielBijl> If we can’t finish 1.1 we shouldn’t be working on 1.2
18:08:29 <MichielBijl> Thank you all for the conversation today
18:08:55 <MichielBijl> Jon, please get together with Job and some other people, and please let us know where you stand next week
18:08:59 <clown> q?
18:09:03 <MichielBijl> Michael did you want to add anything?
18:09:05 <MichielBijl> MC: No
18:10:35 <MichielBijl> RRSAgent, make minutes
18:10:35 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/04/20-aria-minutes.html MichielBijl
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