15:31:28 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #ag
15:31:28 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2017/04/20-ag-irc
15:31:30 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
15:31:33 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be WAI_WCAG
15:31:33 <Zakim> ok, trackbot
15:31:33 <trackbot> Meeting: Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference
15:31:33 <trackbot> Date: 20 April 2017
15:31:40 <Joshue108> Chair: Joshue
15:31:46 <Joshue108> zakim, agenda?
15:31:46 <Zakim> I see 3 items remaining on the agenda:
15:31:47 <Zakim> 6. Accessible Authentication: https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/SCs_April_11/#wbsq10 [from AWK]
15:31:47 <Zakim> 7. Resize Content: https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/SCs_April_11/#wbsq6 [from AWK]
15:31:47 <Zakim> 8. Top items for week of April 16: https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/Top3_18Apr2017/ [from AWK]
15:32:27 <marcjohlic> present+ marcjohlic
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15:32:41 <shawn> present+ Shawn
15:32:47 <steverep> present+steverep
15:32:48 <Glenda> present+ Glenda
15:32:54 <MichaelC> present+
15:33:01 <Joshue108> present+ Joshue108
15:33:06 <AWK> AWK has joined #ag
15:33:10 <AWK> +AWK
15:33:19 <AWK> zakim, agenda?
15:33:19 <Zakim> I see 3 items remaining on the agenda:
15:33:20 <Zakim> 6. Accessible Authentication: https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/SCs_April_11/#wbsq10 [from AWK]
15:33:20 <Zakim> 7. Resize Content: https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/SCs_April_11/#wbsq6 [from AWK]
15:33:20 <Zakim> 8. Top items for week of April 16: https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/Top3_18Apr2017/ [from AWK]
15:33:26 <Joshue108> zakim, clear agenda
15:33:26 <Zakim> agenda cleared
15:33:32 <Joshue108> agenda+ Adapting Text
15:33:41 <Joshue108> agenda+ Accessible Authentication
15:34:10 <Glenda> I can scribe, let me go get my scribe cheat notes
15:34:45 <Glenda> SCRIBE: Glenda
15:34:46 <JF> scribe: glenda
15:34:56 <Glenda> OPEN item 1
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15:35:19 <Ryladog> Present+ Katie_Haritos-Shea
15:35:22 <david-macdonald> david-macdonald has joined #ag
15:35:41 <JohnRochford> present+ JohnRochford
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15:36:04 <KimD> Present+ KimD
15:36:05 <Glenda> Joshue:  struggling with all the different wordings.  Main stumbiling block seems to be around font.
15:36:20 <david-macdonald> Is wayne on call
15:37:10 <Joshue108> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/AdaptingTextSurvey/results
15:38:05 <Glenda> Alastair: discussioin with Patrick was around font aspect.  Patrick objects to using font in this SC.
15:38:08 <JF> +1 to Josh
15:38:21 <Glenda> Joshue:  is including font muddying the waters?
15:38:29 <JF> Q+
15:38:36 <jasonjgw> present+ jasonjgw
15:40:11 <Glenda> Alastrair:  we are trying to achieve overriding text styles.  Most things are really spacing related.  We often achieve this by changing font family.
15:40:53 <Wayne> Wayne has joined #ag
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15:41:05 <Wayne> Present+ Wayne
15:41:14 <Wayne> q+
15:42:32 <Glenda> Alastair: If we can specify a way to ignore font icons, the problem goes away.
15:42:54 <laura> present+ Laura
15:43:30 <Joshue108> ack jf
15:43:32 <allanj> present+
15:43:44 <AWK> q+ to say that my takeaway is that icon fonts can be used, but need to be used properly. The outstanding issue is that we need a metric to make sure people don't need to test every font to declare conformance.
15:44:05 <Greg> present+ Greg_Lowney
15:44:08 <jasonjgw> q-
15:44:19 <alastairc> q+
15:45:09 <Joshue108> +1 to JF
15:45:59 <Glenda> JF: if user changes all fonts on the page to one of the user’s choses, why is this a problem?
15:47:26 <allanj> +1
15:47:55 <Glenda> Wayne: 2.0 did not pay a lot of attention to semantics that happen inline.  When someone puts an icon font, or a may symbol, the actual way that thing looks, has meaning.
15:48:30 <Glenda> Wayne:  We need to add some exceptions for font icons that provide specific meaning that are not availalbe in another font, we have to preserver that meaning.
15:48:34 <laura> The principle is that if you override the font, the issues appear. E.g. font-icons disappear. Same for colors, the act of changing them at all will highlight most or all issues people would get from changing them to their preferred colors.
15:50:19 <Joshue108> q+ to say then there is a semantic component to the use of fonts that in some cases needs to be preserved.
15:51:14 <david-macdonald> for those who are not talking please mute... we have crackling on line
15:52:03 <Glenda> Joshue: looking at this SC objectively, there is very little that points to semantic nature of some font usage.  So, that to me suggest that there should be an addition to this SC about semantic aspect to iconography or a mathematical operator will need to be preserved.
15:52:04 <david-macdonald> q+
15:52:15 <Joshue108> ack greg
15:52:15 <Zakim> Greg, you wanted to say I'm somewhat concerned that the choice of two bullets can lead to sites requiring people having to go through a password reset procedure every time they
15:52:18 <Zakim> ... need to log in, because that's easier for the author than providing a method that does not require memorization. Also, it should be "at least one of" rather than "one of".
15:52:28 <Greg> 1. Major browsers let the user override author-specified fonts and/or colors, an accessibility feature that is easy to use and well documented. When an author makes their page intentionally incompatible with that feature, I don’t think we should allow them to claim to be sufficiently accessible.
15:52:30 <Greg> Note that marking up use of icon fonts would not fix this problem.
15:52:57 <Joshue108> s/or a mathematical operator/ or for example a mathematical operator of formula
15:53:22 <Greg> 2. Font is a major stumbling block, but another issue is whether we require compatibility with a wide range of appearance schemes, or just two (one default and one alternate).
15:53:38 <jasonjgw> q+
15:54:18 <Ryladog> q+
15:54:28 <Joshue108> ack wayne
15:54:38 <alastairc> q-
15:54:43 <LisaSeeman> LisaSeeman has joined #ag
15:54:48 <Joshue108> ack awk
15:54:48 <Zakim> AWK, you wanted to say that my takeaway is that icon fonts can be used, but need to be used properly. The outstanding issue is that we need a metric to make sure people don't need
15:54:50 <AWK> ack AWK
15:54:51 <Zakim> ... to test every font to declare conformance.
15:56:16 <LisaSeeman> but it meets the humen testable bar
15:57:16 <AWK> https://rawgit.com/w3c/wcag21/AWK_adapting-text/guidelines/#adapting-text
15:57:20 <Ryladog> q-
15:58:08 <Glenda> AWK: having trouble with the testability of the font bullet point. There are problems that need to be addressed, but testability is problematic for font.  I think you could always find at least one font that would pass, so I don’t think this has a testable solution yet.  Can we take fonts out of this right now (with an editor’s note that this is something we will research and add in at a later version).
15:58:16 <david-macdonald> +1
15:58:18 <Ryladog> q+
15:58:56 <Wayne> q+
15:59:08 <alastairc> +1 to Andrew's proposal (note it is missing a close bracket by captions).
15:59:08 <Joshue108> ack Joshue
15:59:08 <Zakim> Joshue, you wanted to say then there is a semantic component to the use of fonts that in some cases needs to be preserved.
15:59:18 <Joshue108> JOC: Some sample text to cover semantics - Each of the following text styles of the page can be overridden with no loss of essential content, functionality or meaning.
16:00:06 <david-macdonald> @ awk close the bracket (with the exception of images of text and captions,
16:00:08 <Joshue108> ack david
16:01:16 <Glenda> David:  AWK in the short term solved it for me.  Looking at Icon fonts the same way we looked at table layout.  We don’t recommend you do it, but if you do it, do it in an accessible way.
16:02:14 <Joshue108> ack jason
16:03:37 <Glenda> Jason: could we fix the fallback algorithm so if a character is not found in the replacing font…that the fallback would be to the original author supplied font.
16:04:14 <AWK> We might also need to clarify that the replacement font needs to support the same language. If I replace arial with a korean font I can't expect a good result
16:05:24 <JF> +1
16:05:29 <Joshue108> ack ryla
16:06:36 <Glenda> Katie:  I like AWK’s idea, of going forward without the font at this time, and doing furuther research on font.  Glad to see the energy that is being put into the font solution.
16:06:49 <Joshue108> ack wayne
16:07:15 <JF> Q+
16:07:34 <JF> ack me
16:08:20 <Glenda> Wayne: In line characher sequences that are part of the natural language like math or physics or icon fonts (like emojis).  We cannot write a computer program that can parse out the meaning of an author.  Authors will need to add role or identifiication when the font has specific semantic meaning and cannot be replaced with just any font family.
16:08:21 <AWK> q+ to ask about failures related to the color changes
16:10:26 <Glenda> Jason:  I still think there is a possibility of falling back to the author supplied font instead of just displaying squares.  I do understand that there may be use of font family that relays semantic meeting and would need author supplied semantic markup.
16:10:45 <Joshue108> ack awk
16:10:45 <Zakim> AWK, you wanted to ask about failures related to the color changes
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16:11:50 <Wayne> q+
16:12:03 <laura> color issues: graphical backgrounds (single colour or gradients rather than pictures) that make text unreadable if you reverse the colour scheme.
16:12:07 <Wayne> q-
16:12:18 <Wayne> q+
16:12:22 <Glenda> AWK: we still have challenging issues related to font.  I would like to address these font issues, but also make progress in this SC in 2.1 as well.  What about the color issue?  If the end user can change the text color and background color to a single different text color and a single different background color, is that enough.
16:12:56 <Greg> q+ to discuss color use cases
16:13:04 <Joshue108> ack wayne
16:13:54 <Glenda> Wayne:  I have been classifying failures.  Big failure is on high contrast and background images.  When author assumes that various icons are sitting on top of a specific background image color.
16:13:58 <AWK> But the icon isn't text? or is it?
16:16:21 <AWK> ack greg
16:16:21 <Zakim> Greg, you wanted to discuss color use cases
16:16:31 <Greg> Use case: user changes to light on dark, but icons are hard-coded dark to contrast with the default background color, and so becomes invisible.
16:16:33 <Greg> Use case: information is conveyed by text color differences (e.g. new items in red, or alternating colors to achieve animation), which disappear when the user overrides author colors.
16:17:32 <Greg> Use case: user want to avoid text colors that conflict with their synaesthesia.
16:17:39 <Joshue108> q?
16:19:04 <LisaSeeman> any chance we will get to authetification today?
16:19:35 <alastairc> The plan is to create a testing speadsheet and go through many examples....
16:19:52 <LisaSeeman> it might be better to finish this one  as we will not have enough time to finish authification anyway
16:20:48 <JF> Q+
16:21:02 <Glenda> Josh: if we can step back, can we remove font family at this time.  How can we progress this now?
16:21:18 <Joshue108> ack JF
16:21:25 <LisaSeeman> q+
16:21:49 <LisaSeeman> (what a shame we missed that John....)
16:22:18 <Glenda> JF: icon fonts already need an aria-label for meaning for screen reader users, but for sighted users, they don’t have access to this.
16:22:33 <alastairc> so where do we put the semantics for this? ARIA? HTML?
16:22:56 <alastairc> Patrick is objecting to a non-normative technique
16:22:59 <Glenda> JOC:  we could have a technique for aria to show semantic of the icon font
16:23:03 <Joshue108> q?
16:24:11 <Glenda> David:  Paul Adam wrote a plug in to reveal aria labels and make the visible.  Wouldn’t a technique be to make aria semantic info be visible for font icons.
16:24:11 <Joshue108> ack Lisa
16:24:30 <allanj> this could be done with CSS also
16:25:02 <Greg> John, note that any add-in that makes hidden text visible will change line widths; if the page can handle that without breaking, they can also handle changes to font widths.
16:25:23 <Glenda> Lisa: The last thing you want to add is more info on the screen for the low vision user (if it is not needed).  I’d like to see personalization solutions.  Not good to simply show all the aria labels.
16:26:14 <Glenda> Lisa:  can we have straw poll and see if we can reach consensus
16:26:27 <Wayne> The ratio of parameters of a box with a specific font like ARIAL, to an arbitrary font X for all boxes with the same permiter.
16:26:35 <Wayne> q+
16:27:01 <Wayne> q-
16:27:24 <laura> laura has left #ag
16:27:47 <Glenda> JOC:  can someone explain differences between H & I versus J & K versus L & M https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Issue_78_Options#Proposal_L_text_reads:
16:27:48 <Greg> Big difference: whether the Level A requires testing with a wide range of appearance choices, vs. only two (one default plus one alternate).
16:28:21 <Glenda> JOC and AWK:  We will leave this open for now.
16:28:52 <Glenda> RSSAgent, make logs public
16:29:05 <Glenda> trackbot, end meeting
16:29:05 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
16:29:05 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been allanj, Laura, AWK, Glenda, Greg_Lowney, ScottM, JF, Katie_Haritos-Shea, MichaelC, KimD, jasonjgw, dboudreau, Lauriat, shwetank, Makoto,
16:29:09 <Zakim> ... Melanie_Philipp, Detlev, Rachael, Wayne, MikeGower, marcjohlic, Bruce_Bailey, Jake, steverep, jon_avila, adam_solomon, Elledge, Mike_Pluke, kirkwood, Kathy, LisaSeeman,
16:29:09 <Zakim> ... Michael, seeman, DAVID, Shawn, Joshue108, JohnRochford
16:29:13 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
16:29:13 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/04/20-ag-minutes.html trackbot
16:29:14 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
16:29:14 <RRSAgent> I see no action items