15:03:55 RRSAgent has joined #hcls 15:03:55 logging to http://www.w3.org/2017/04/11-hcls-irc 15:03:57 RRSAgent, make logs world 15:03:57 Zakim has joined #hcls 15:03:59 Zakim, this will be HCLS 15:03:59 ok, trackbot 15:04:00 Meeting: Semantic Web Health Care and Life Sciences Interest Group Teleconference 15:04:00 Date: 11 April 2017 15:04:12 Chair: David Booth 15:04:25 Present: EricP, David Booth, Rob Hausam 15:04:57 topic: Applying FHIR RDF 15:05:51 eric: OWL is good at subsumption reasoning -- classes and subclasses. So you end up asking if something is a member of a class. 15:06:18 ... E.g., a CodeableConcept is an instance of a SNOMED CT class. Ont weird, but allows you to do what you want to do. 15:07:03 ... Wanted to use ValueSets, but could only do inference if something was a member of a class. 15:08:59 ... Ont weird because the SNOMED term describes something like serum creatinine level. But its not really a CodeableConcept. 15:10:09 ... Would be more ont correct to say that the Observation is an instance of that SNOMED concept, rather than the code. 15:10:48 rob: Question is whether that SNOMED connection applies to the element itself or the observation. 15:11:15 eric: Lloyd wanted to propagate the concept up to the Observation. 15:13:31 ... A resource with multiple CodeableConcepts in it . . . if we had Observation.code and Observation.status ... We need to find a resource that has CodeableConcepts on their own, and figure out if there is a principled rule that would allow the CodeableConcepts to propagate up to be applied to the resource as a whole. 15:14:48 eric: There will be people who will oppose us if we do not fix this. 15:16:07 rob: But FHIR describes records -- not diseases. 15:16:27 Present+ Ken 15:16:51 ken: If the binding is at the Observation level, how would that work with detailed clinical models like CIMI? 15:17:21 eric: A detailed clinical model is a combination of observations and interventions. 15:19:13 ... If an APGAR score is a constellation of 5 observations then that would still be consistent with any one of those observations have the SNOMED type apply to the observation itself. 15:20:24 ... We want to apply the code to something so that we can apply inference. 15:21:49 ... Another screw case: medical records have SNOMED identifiers, and SNOMED gurus model things in nice ways, but when people use the codes they can use an Observation code, or a Level code. Probably a lot of confusion about using the right one, because historically there was no machinery to tell them the were doing it wrong. 15:23:22 dbooth: That's a benefit of doing this work, because inference could tell them they've made a mistake -- used the wrong code. 15:23:40 eric: Disease vs diagnosis. 15:24:16 ... There are useful things you want to look up about the disease. Need coding to be right in order to use SNOMED inference. 15:25:22 rob: That may be a bad example, because diagnosis and disease are not different in snomed. 15:27:00 ... It has been impossible to make a reliable distinction between Disease and Finding, so we need to remove that distinction. 15:27:37 eric: In med school you learn disease, but the finding applies to a particular patient. 15:28:12 ken: I think a Concern can be tied to disease also. Is there a SNOMED diferentiation of a Concern? 15:28:21 ken: There's not a notion of Concern in snomed. 15:28:38 s/ken/rob/ 15:29:01 ... But there is a difference between Finding and Observable. 15:29:32 eric: screw case: Using snomed relationships, searching, might get false negatives if people use the wrong nature of code. 15:30:10 ... If that happens, you could instead look for something with a relationship to what you want. 15:31:20 rob: Example: if you're recording an allergy, do you record a substance, or a precoordinated code as an allergy to that substance. 15:31:38 ... Hardly anyone uses post-coordinated expressions. Not common. 15:32:32 eric: I think sometimes you'll see the snomed commas, but never the equals. 15:33:33 ... If there's a pre-coord term for laterality-left, and one for hairline fracture, they'll write them both (with a comma), but not the official post-coord expression (with equals) 15:33:57 rob: I don't ever see people doing that these days. 15:34:36 eric: Who does use the compositional grammar? 15:34:47 rob: People like Cecil Lynch 15:35:53 eric: Once people can see the benefits of what we can do, then there will be more incentive for more structured info. But still a pain to put in all that structure info. 15:37:11 dbooth: But Natural Language Processing (NLP) is coming along very well. It can help bridge the gap of capturing structured info. 15:38:00 ... I envision a conversational interface between the system and the healthcare provider. 15:39:33 eric: Build the whole snomed expression in RDF, or use either the pre-coord term or equivalent expression. 15:40:04 rob: Jim Campbell, U of Nebraska Med Center, is doing that. 15:40:44 dbooth: Should we record this as an issue? 15:40:58 eric: More of an opportunity. Will someone pay me to do it? 15:42:17 ... Would be cool to be able to take a post-coord expr and turn it into a blob of RDF as an expression of the snomed terms. 15:42:40 ... Or from pre-coord. 15:43:48 ... This would harmonize: pre-coord, compositional terms (post-coord), and atomic terms sprinkled throughout specialized attributes in the info model. 15:47:38 rrsagent, where am i? 15:47:38 See http://www.w3.org/2017/04/11-hcls-irc#T15-47-38 15:54:03 eric: Need a microparser for parsing apart the compositional expressions 15:54:09 Topic: Licensing 15:55:14 dbooth: SNOMED licensing is still a barrier, even within the USA, which has a blanket free license to use, because the license restrictions do not allow people to transform and post portions of snomed freely on the web. 15:55:42 i/rrsagent/See https://github.com/w3c/hcls-fhir-rdf/issues/50 15:56:36 eric: a billionaire could buy out IHTSDO and provide SNOMED maintenance for 20 years. 15:57:34 Topic: Harmonizing pre-coordinated and compositional terms in the information model 16:02:55 s/Topic: Harmonizing pre-coordinated and compositional terms in the information model// 16:02:58 http://gforge.hl7.org/gf/project/fhir/tracker/?action=TrackerItemBrowse&feedback=Successfully+added+%5B%2313162%5D&tracker_id=677 16:03:00 ADJOURNED 16:06:24 rrsagent, draft minutes 16:06:24 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/04/11-hcls-minutes.html dbooth 16:14:26 s/Present+ Ken/Present+ Ken Lord/ 16:14:35 rrsagent, draft minutes 16:14:35 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/04/11-hcls-minutes.html dbooth 16:15:01 s/Ken Lord/Ken_Lord/ 16:15:03 rrsagent, draft minutes 16:15:03 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/04/11-hcls-minutes.html dbooth 16:16:03 s/Licensing/Terminology Licensing/ 16:16:24 rrsagent, draft minutes 16:16:24 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/04/11-hcls-minutes.html dbooth 17:31:34 Zakim has left #hcls