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07:55:52 <AlexD> CMN: No, haven't gone through all my mail
07:56:06 <tink> rrsagent, set logs world-visible
07:56:14 <tink> rrsagent, make minutes
07:56:14 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/03/29-html-minutes.html tink
07:56:16 <chaals> present+ Guido, Xiaoqian, Taewan, Paul, Rouvian
07:56:33 <chaals> s/Rouvian/Roelf-Jan/
07:56:47 <chaals> present+ AlexD, SteveF
07:56:58 <AlexD> SF: What chat stuff do you use at Q42?
07:57:17 <AlexD> GB: 90% Slack, rest is emails. Try to use email less and less
07:57:43 <chaals> s/taewan/taehwan/
07:58:02 <sangwhan> Here, in a meeting though.
08:00:05 <chaals> Sangwhan, can you give us a useful time when you can discuss issue 538 - IDN email?
08:00:23 <sangwhan> Would you prefer a dial-in or a brain dump over IRC?
08:02:26 <chaals> -> https://github.com/w3c/html/issues/ open issues
08:02:38 <SteveF> SteveF has joined #html
08:02:52 <chaals> [Unclear whether we can assume the editors who are not here think their issues are straightforward, or they have just done no triage :( ]
08:03:38 <AlexD> CMN: Yesterday we went through issues.
08:03:55 <AlexD> People here, please go through your lists and see if you're OK with the status
08:04:42 <AlexD> SF: (explains what we did yesterday to today's new attendees)
08:04:55 <sangwhan> Linkdrop: https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6531 https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3492 https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3490
08:05:59 <sangwhan> RFC6531 is the real problem here, there is a chicken and egg problem (Poor MTA interoperability)
08:07:07 <AlexD> SF: Do you have internal style guides on how to use HTML?
08:07:23 <AlexD> RJ: No, each team uses different tools to validate
08:08:08 <AlexD> [Discussion about validation tools]
08:08:19 <sangwhan> I can dial in in about... 20 mins if that works.
08:08:33 <chaals> Yeah, that would help I suspect.
08:09:14 <AlexD> [More discussion about semantic meaning for assistive technologies]
08:10:28 <AlexD> GB: We kind of assume every front end developer knows their way around HTML, and assume focus on JS. We find heading structure is not that solid.
08:10:48 <AlexD> When it comes to screen readers, what does the reader tell you? More often than not it doesn't make sense.
08:11:04 <AlexD> Using tools helps a lot
08:12:58 <AlexD> CMN: Talk bout Issue #561
08:13:14 <AlexD> CMN: Issue #832, let's talk about it now.
08:13:30 <AlexD> https://github.com/w3c/html/issues/832
08:14:36 <AlexD> XW: I'll go through the list to see what's broken
08:14:57 <AlexD> LW: Would it make sense to explain to Terence how to do it, to help him get involved?
08:15:08 <AlexD> I would explain to him what needs to happen
08:15:45 <AlexD> s/XW/XQ/
08:16:18 <AlexD> CMN: Has anyone checked the multiple attribute on email inputs?
08:16:32 <AlexD> It'd be handy to teszt
08:16:37 <AlexD> s/teszt/test/
08:17:22 <AlexD> AD: It's in the RFC, comma separated works for SMTP
08:17:32 <AlexD> CMN: Be nice to know if browsers choke
08:21:07 <SteveF> multiple attribute support https://www.wufoo.com/html5/attributes/08-multiple.html
08:21:24 <AlexD> LW: What's this info about building and bikeshed update followed by copying the spec data files?
08:21:36 <AlexD> AD: I've never had to copy anything, it's bad info
08:21:50 <AlexD> CMN: I'd like to talk about read only on non-text input types
08:22:56 <AlexD> We had an issue for a couple of specific things, it's a generic issue really. WHATWG started looking at the question, read only only works on text input types. That means it works by default on any unsupported type
08:23:36 <AlexD> If you do read only on certain types of control, browsers seem to implement read only, then go back later to fix them
08:23:56 <AlexD> Seems easy to implement that the controls be read only is a feasible thinbg
08:24:03 <AlexD> s/thinbg/thing/
08:24:39 <AlexD> Does it make sense to allow read only controls?
08:24:55 <AlexD> [Call setup for Sangwhan]
08:26:19 <sangwhan> I would imagine so. Locking a UI component in say, a configuration panel that gets disabled due to a dependency is a fairly common thing in native.
08:27:27 <AlexD> SW: Issue I'm assigned to is hard
08:27:34 <AlexD> Lets start with the LHS
08:27:54 <AlexD> That side has really bad real world interoperability with servers
08:28:26 <AlexD> Even if we allow users to do that, there's very little value added in adding this
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08:28:55 <AlexD> Because email is a relay mechanism, if any MTA in the middle doesn't handle this mechanism, then you have problems
08:29:29 <AlexD> I'm sure we don't want to allow the LHS to use SMTP-UTF8
08:30:01 <AlexD> There are cases where there's magical punycode translation
08:30:20 <AlexD> That could be a problem with interoperability when people cut & paste
08:30:38 <AlexD> Punycode might solve some of it, but needs cross-browser collaboration to work
08:31:14 <chaals-temp> q+ to point out that since people use text input to get around this, we already have the problem of mismatches where people do this.
08:31:27 <AlexD> Support of IDN8 is possible for RHS.,
08:31:33 <AlexD> LHS I don't think we should do
08:31:52 <AlexD> We could file browser bugs and see if the browser vendors implement thig
08:31:56 <AlexD> s/thig/this/
08:32:13 <AlexD> Use of the email field is not very high anyway, people just use text fields
08:32:18 <chaals-temp> ack me
08:32:18 <Zakim> chaals-temp, you wanted to point out that since people use text input to get around this, we already have the problem of mismatches where people do this.
08:32:44 <AlexD> CMN: I'm not sure what we should do about the LHS
08:32:58 <AlexD> I have an IDN email address in Russian
08:33:13 <AlexD> If you send UTF over the wire, you're not going to have a good time
08:33:48 <AlexD> There's been work to make some of the big systems work properly with UTF-8
08:34:20 <AlexD> That said, the argument that you log into a non-ASCII account name and go to a different browser, you'll see it doesn't work
08:34:55 <AlexD> There's a reasonable case to be made that the uptake path is reasonable (switch browser)
08:35:17 <AlexD> You see government in India pushing this, Russia as part way to pushing it
08:35:30 <AlexD> We should look for up to date info about what's implemented
08:35:49 <AlexD> SW: I went through commit logs on MTAs, it's rarely supported
08:36:15 <AlexD> CMN: The validate down to punycode, leave LHS as ASCII doesn't seem hard
08:36:42 <AlexD> Just need a punycode translator before we do validation
08:37:11 <AlexD> SW: Maybe find consensus on what the browser vendors think
08:37:31 <AlexD> If it's doable, it's not rocket science
08:37:54 <AlexD> CMN: It's literally putting a punycode translator before the validator
08:38:17 <AlexD> IDNs all have to translate into punycode, right?
08:38:40 <AlexD> SW: IDNs are a user level feature, the DNS resolution happens at the ASCII level
08:38:56 <AlexD> CMN: If we split the issue into 2
08:39:32 <AlexD> Yesterday, we said in a WD, we can put in 'do the RHS' and file browser bugs, mark it at risk. If it doesn't get implementations, it doesn't go to Rec
08:39:51 <AlexD> Seems reasonable to have the IDN on the RHS marked at risk
08:40:04 <AlexD> Hold off on the LHS, since it's much less widely deployed
08:40:20 <AlexD> ICANN are chasing up implementations of this, so follow their progress
08:40:37 <AlexD> SW: Guess we can live with that
08:40:46 <AlexD> CMN: Won't be in 5.2 time-frame
08:41:14 <AlexD> No way the LHS stuff will be implemented in that time, even difficult for 5.3
08:41:29 <AlexD> SW: When there's email, there's legacy interop problems
08:41:49 <AlexD> I doubt this'll get enough traction in the near future. e.g. Exchange server 1999 being used somewhere
08:42:16 <AlexD> I could come up with a simplistic way to do validation and see what people think
08:42:47 <AlexD> CMN: Do you want to take that issue?
08:42:57 <AlexD> SW: Sure, next month or so
08:43:21 <AlexD> CMN: Would be nice for this milestone in the WD
08:43:29 <AlexD> SW: Let me give it some thought
08:43:35 <AlexD> CMN: IO could do a PR
08:43:39 <AlexD> s/IO/I/
08:43:51 <AlexD> All of your other issues, have you triaged?
08:44:03 <AlexD> SW: Half seem doable, will work on them
08:44:19 <AlexD> Couple of hard issues
08:44:32 <AlexD> Finding consensus for them will be hard
08:44:39 <AlexD> CMN: You should tell us which ones
08:45:44 <AlexD> #538 is icky
08:46:02 <AlexD> #375?
08:46:25 <AlexD> Vsync
08:47:18 <AlexD> Most people won't see this unless you're wearing VR headsets
08:47:47 <AlexD> What's the relationship between #785 and #375?
08:47:50 <AlexD> Seems like a dup
08:48:09 <AlexD> SW: If this work has been done upstream there's a possibility of getting it working
08:48:54 <AlexD> CMN: Suggest we link the issues, and make #785 the one
08:49:01 <AlexD> #314 you said?
08:49:13 <AlexD> SW: Yes, default style for a given element in use in the wild
08:49:15 <AlexD> Risky
08:50:07 <AlexD> CMN: Yes, it's risky, It'll need discussion
08:50:32 <AlexD> Let's push this to WD7 and push a real discussion
08:50:52 <AlexD> SW: Are we happy with the regression scope? This will break real content out in the wild
08:51:53 <AlexD> CMN: It's about nested quotes where you're shifting language in the nested quote. Should the quote marks match the language inside them or the language outside, Currently it matches outside
08:52:19 <AlexD> The suggestion is we change the rendering to match the inside quoted language
08:52:31 <AlexD> Is this going to cause issues, or improve things?
08:52:44 <AlexD> i18n group argue it'll make things better
08:54:38 <AlexD> CMN: It's unlikely to be a large number of pages affected by this, but also it's probably an improvement
08:55:21 <AlexD> GB: If you ask me, if the spec before doesn't follow the language rules, then the spec is at fault
08:55:48 <sangwhan> RRSAgent, draft minutes
08:55:48 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/03/29-html-minutes.html sangwhan
08:56:11 <AlexD> It actually makes sense
08:58:01 <AlexD> CMN: It's inline layout for all these cases?
08:58:35 <AlexD> SW: Yes, changes the pseudo-elements that get inserted for quotes
08:59:42 <AlexD> CMN: I think this is a no brainer, but we should push it out to milestone 7 to give it time for discussion
08:59:55 <AlexD> SW: I'll chase Don Florian for this (sp?)
09:00:32 <chaals-temp> s/(sp?)//
09:00:42 <chaals-temp> s/Don/down/
09:01:04 <AlexD> SW: #253 I won't do this week
09:01:12 <AlexD> #269 I won't do
09:01:46 <AlexD> CMN: I will have a look if I can do #253
09:02:46 <AlexD> SW: I'll go through the list and see what I can get through this week
09:04:01 <AlexD> <break/>
09:40:00 <chaals> Topic: work
09:40:13 <chaals> [Fix your issues]
09:45:27 <Roelf-Jan> https://twitter.com/q42glijbaan
10:19:28 <SteveF> https://diffofhtmls.herokuapp.com/
10:29:00 <chaals> agenda+ documentation: https://github.com/w3c/html/blob/master/README.md …
10:29:06 <chaals> [lunch]
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11:59:01 <ordhord> agenda?
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12:37:34 <SteveF> GuidoBouman: https://github.com/w3c/html/issues/774 https://www.w3.org/wiki/HTML/Usage/Headings/h1only https://www.paciellogroup.com/blog/2015/09/easy-content-organisation-with-html5/
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12:39:56 <SteveF> GuidoBouman: https://github.com/w3c/html/issues/774 https://www.w3.org/wiki/HTML/Usage/Headings/h1only https://www.paciellogroup.com/blog/2015/09/easy-content-organisation-with-html5/
12:53:21 <chaals> zakim, close item 13
12:53:21 <Zakim> agendum 13, issue 821 Add <link rel=serviceworker>+associated attributes, closed
12:53:23 <Zakim> I see 1 item remaining on the agenda:
12:53:23 <Zakim> 15. documentation: https://github.com/w3c/html/blob/master/README.md … [from chaals]
12:53:25 <chaals> zakim, next item
12:53:25 <Zakim> agendum 15. "documentation: https://github.com/w3c/html/blob/master/README.md …" taken up [from chaals]
13:13:02 <chaals> -> https://github.com/w3c/html/pull/809 Alex' PR
13:34:40 <chaals> -> http://chaals.github.io/testcases/details-without-summary-manual.html test for details element without summary
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15:01:18 <xiaoqian> RRSAgent, make minutes
15:01:18 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/03/29-html-minutes.html xiaoqian
15:01:23 <xiaoqian> RRSAgent, make log public
15:01:44 <xiaoqian> chair: chaals
15:01:47 <xiaoqian> RRSAgent, make minutes
15:01:47 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/03/29-html-minutes.html xiaoqian
15:03:23 <xiaoqian> Meeting: HTML F2F Day 2
15:03:28 <xiaoqian> RRSAgent, make minutes
15:03:28 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/03/29-html-minutes.html xiaoqian
15:19:29 <tink> tink has joined #html
15:19:43 <tink> rrsagent, make minutes
15:19:43 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/03/29-html-minutes.html tink
15:20:15 <tink> present+ Léonie
15:20:22 <tink> present+ Chaals
15:20:27 <tink> rrsagent, make minutes
15:20:27 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/03/29-html-minutes.html tink
15:20:43 <tink> regrets: Travis, Arron
15:20:47 <tink> present+ Sangwhan
15:20:50 <tink> rrsagent, make minutes
15:20:50 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/03/29-html-minutes.html tink
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