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07:53:10 Meeting: HTML F2F Da1
07:53:26 Meeting: HTML F2F Day1
07:53:53 Present+ chaals, stevef
07:54:02 present+ Léonie
07:54:40 present+ xiaoqian, Changjin, Teahwan, Johan
07:54:48 present+ AlexD
07:59:00 Chair: Chaals
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08:00:41 Meeting information: https://github.com/w3c/WebPlatformWG/blob/gh-pages/meetings/17-03HTML.md
08:02:41 rrsagent, set logs world-visible
08:02:47 rrsagent, make minutes
08:02:47 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/03/28-html-minutes.html tink
08:04:36 rrsagent, set logs world-visible
08:04:41 rrsagent, make minutes
08:04:41 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/03/28-html-minutes.html tink
08:04:59 RRSAgent, make minutes public
08:04:59 I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minutes public', xiaoqian. Try /msg RRSAgent help
08:05:10 Zakim, make minutes public
08:05:10 I don't understand 'make minutes public', xiaoqian
08:05:27 RRSAgent, make log public
08:06:22 s/HTML F2F Da1/HTML F2F Day1
08:06:22 regrets: Travis, Arron, Sangwhan
08:06:42 scribe: Léonie
08:06:57 CMN: We need to move HTML5.2 towards Recommendation.
08:07:27 ... We publish an update to the Working Draft (WD) in early April.
08:08:13 ... We need to get reviews from the accessibility (a11y), internationalisation (i18n), security and privacy groups.
08:08:47 ... The Accessible Platform Architectures (APA) WG does a11y reviews, and Léonie is a member.
08:09:06 ... The I18n group uses a label on our HTML repo which flags when issues are opened/closed etc.
08:09:40 ... Security and Privacy have Interest Groups (IG), but often we do not get responses because those groups do not have enoug people to get reviews done.
08:10:08 ... We also ask the Technical Architecture Group (TAG) for review.
08:12:02 ... We publish a changelog each time we update the spec, to help people review changes.
08:12:23 ... It would help if people could review those bits of the spec that are old and unchanged too, because they could be done better.
08:12:49 ... Parts of the spec are badly written and difficult for people to understand.
08:13:05 ... What we'd like is for those people to tell us when something is difficult to understand.
08:13:54 ... We also need to improve our documentation, to help other people work with us on the spec.
08:14:51 ... Over the next three days we will do maintenance.
08:15:07 ... Our work is mostly ixing issues and cleaning up the spec.
08:15:59 ... We think that for HTML5.3 we will start to see new features.
08:16:23 ... We will also need to decide how we fit the Web Components work in.
08:16:32 LW: If the WG decides to incorporate it.
08:16:41 CMN: That's the other question, yes.
08:16:48 rrsagent, make minutes
08:16:48 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/03/28-html-minutes.html tink
08:17:57 ... We could also separate out chunks of the spec, Parsing is one possible candidate.
08:18:18 ... That takes a lot of work and we need people with the time to make it happen.
08:18:43 rrsagent, make minutes
08:18:43 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/03/28-html-minutes.html tink
08:21:08 ... We have prospective changes/new features like the one in issue #774
08:27:50 JH: We try to use something and then some time later we figure out where it works/doesn't work.
08:28:27 CMN: Do you keep track of the bits of code you're going to need are?
08:28:59 JH: If we have a project with a difficult challenge we discuss it in our Slack channels until we find a solution.
08:29:56 PCJ: We do the same.
08:31:10 AD: We have the Web Platform Incubation Community Group (WICG).
08:31:23 ... You don't need t be a W3C member to join WICG.
08:31:51 ... There are ideas coming up, but unless they have a champion driving them, they tend not to move forward.
08:31:51 -> https://discourse.wicg.io/t/profiled-html-e-g-amp-friends/1979 example of a proposal which not many people look at…
08:32:10 ... People don't understand that in standards you need to do work, you have to put the time in to make things happen.
08:32:41 ... That means the people who do work prioritise things that are important/interesting to them or the company they represent.
08:32:56 ... But The WICG was supposed to change that.
08:33:15 ... There is an idea of chapters around the world where people in different regions cold colaborate.
08:33:26 ... It hasn't happened though, because no-one is driving it.
08:33:37 SF: WICG seems successful at getting people involved.
08:33:54 ... I don't know how well those ideas are translating into standards or code yet though.
08:34:15 CMN: It's easy to write up an issue and post it there, than it is to research whether anyone has alrady done so.
08:34:30 s/alrady/already/
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08:34:34 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/03/28-html-minutes.html tink
08:34:58 AD: A lot of frameworks do data-binding for example, and they all do it differently.
08:35:16 ... So how do you find the commonality?
08:35:37 ... Finding a standard sounds good on paper, but the reality is that every framework would need to rewrite the way it does it.
08:35:49 ... W3C tries to be te interoperable standard.
08:36:13 s/te interoperable/the interoperable/
08:36:27 SF: Testing is boring work.
08:36:43 AD: Yes, which is why it's hard to attract people to help do it.
08:36:57 JH: I had no idea it was easy to contribute.
08:37:06 rrsagent, make inutes
08:37:06 I'm logging. I don't understand 'make inutes', tink. Try /msg RRSAgent help
08:37:15 rrsagent, make minutes
08:37:15 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/03/28-html-minutes.html tink
08:37:35 SF: The opportunity to contribute has become much more open.
08:38:20 JH: When HTML5 was introduced it was a big thing.
08:38:32 ... It appealed to a lot of people.
08:38:41 ... But when people go to the site they see a lot of text.
08:38:54 ... But the HTML5 launch made it cool - the logo, t-shirts etc.
08:39:18 CMN: We need better marketing?
08:39:31 XW: We have a W3C course to learn HTML5.
08:39:44 LW: We do need better marketing, no doubt about it.
08:40:04 JH: Also you should make it better known how easy it is to contribute.
08:40:11 CMN: If you have ideas they are welcome.
08:40:39 HJ: An overview of specs would be good.
08:41:26 LJW: We have a starter for a document on HTML5 extensions
08:41:37 … the things that extend HTML5 …
08:42:07 … maybe we can use that as a basis to help people understand the different pieces and how they go together
08:42:19 … [hmm. hard to find…]
08:42:20 LW: https://github.com/w3c/html-extension
08:43:36 -> https://w3c.github.io/html-extensions/ the collection of HTML extensions
08:48:09 SF: write a post and get it to somewhere like smashing mag instead of just W3C blog.
08:48:35 Johan: Now I know that WICG is there and that people can use it, but how do we tell more people about it.
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08:49:48 AD: the first thing people meet when they look at the repo is instructions to install a whole set of tools to build the spec. That's not an easy welcoming introduction… should be restructured.
08:55:34 LW: Yes, the process is not itself difficult, but the documentation makes it seem more difficult.
08:56:59 LW: We have a newcomer Anne Colum, who is interested in helping with HTML. I'll ask her to take some notes on what she found difficult/what she could have done with in getting setup for the first time.
08:57:11 XW: I don't think the documentation is complete, and I might need to ask editors, but I can work on what people need to do to make changes.
08:57:36 ACTION: Xiaoqian write up how to contribute.
08:57:53 AD: What was good about test the web forward was that we gave people t-shirts if they wrote stuff…
08:59:17 Paul: In Korea the problem is language - developers don't necessarily speak english.
08:59:39 AD: Testing is good like that because you just find something that doesn't *work*, and write the test to show what isn't working.
09:00:08 Paul: people have difficulty expressing their opinon - so they like writing code but not documentation…
09:00:21 s/people/people who are not confident in english/
09:03:05 CMN: It works to have a developer file a test showing something doesn't work, and a one-line issue saying "section x.y doesn't match reality" - then you are a contributor, and we can get a spec editor to fix the spec documentation…
09:03:24 Johan: How do you tell the world that the 5.2 spec is released…
09:03:41 CMN: There is a press release, that of course everyone is waiting for and reading carefully…
09:03:48 [paul smiles…]
09:31:51 RRSAgent, make minutes
09:31:51 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/03/28-html-minutes.html xiaoqian
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09:41:04 Topic: Look through your issues, find which ones need to be discussed and which ones are just a question of work.
09:43:16 -> https://github.com/w3c/html/issues/633 "how to build the spec"
09:43:28 I'm looking for someone else to take this: Léonie?
09:44:28 -> https://github.com/w3c/html/issues/538 input type="email" doesn't allow IDN. For discussion - needs browser implementation?
09:45:48 -> https://github.com/w3c/html/issues/487 use a common code style. What to do with this?
09:46:08 -> https://github.com/w3c/html/issues/310 Use active voice. same question…
09:46:41 https://github.com/w3c/html/issues/160 rel values. Which ones should go into the spec. There are some related issues for specific values.
09:46:53 s/https/-> https/
09:47:28 agenda+ Editorial Issues 487 and 310
09:47:46 agenda+ Issue 160 (and friends): rel values
09:52:04 agenda+ issues 342, 292, 290, 199 - focus handling, and whether we should make recommendations or just document a version of reality
09:52:46 agenda+ issue 633 - how to build the spec - needs an owner who can do it.
09:54:31 agenda+ Issue 819 are td cells in thead header cells?
10:20:45 agenda+ Issue 544 make style in body conforming
10:22:48 agenda+ Issue 291 how to maintain the ruby section
10:22:51 agenda+ Issue 560 Port referrerpolicy integration
10:24:15 agenda+ Issue 553 Allow multiple meta-description elements if they have different lang values
10:25:21 agenda+ Issue 263 Define formal activation behaviour for select
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10:32:14 agenda+ Issue 561 Mechanism for presenting descriptive information
10:32:47 agenda+ Issue 807 Button element definition
10:33:39 agenda+ issue 821 Add +associated attributes
10:34:08 agenda+ issue 586 wbr mechanics
10:35:38 agenda?
10:36:23 zakim, close agendum 2
10:36:23 agendum 2, Issue 160 (and friends): rel values, closed
10:36:24 I see 13 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
10:36:24 1. Editorial Issues 487 and 310 [from chaals]
10:37:13 zakim, close item 4
10:37:13 agendum 4, issue 633 - how to build the spec - needs an owner who can do it., closed
10:37:15 I see 12 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
10:37:15 1. Editorial Issues 487 and 310 [from chaals]
10:38:45 zakim, take up item 9
10:38:45 agendum 9. "Issue 553 Allow multiple meta-description elements if they have different lang values" taken up [from AlexD]
10:39:23 AD: Should we allow e.g. two different descriptions. Needs tests, but should this go to hte Working Group?
10:39:53 CMN: Absolutely should, but we may get silence. Anything from i18n?
10:40:08 AD: WHATWG has enabled this, no comment from i18n.
10:40:31 CMN: So what is the philosophical question?
10:40:46 AD: Makes sense, but there might be a different meaning in different languages.
10:41:12 CMN: Sounds like unless tests show something breaks, I would suggest just do it…
10:41:40 … what uses meta description
10:42:17 … e.g. you search for a test case in multiple languages does anything go wrong…
10:43:10 RESOLUTION: write tests, make the change to allow multiple descs
10:43:25 zakim, item 14
10:43:25 I don't understand 'item 14', chaals
10:43:30 zakim, take up item 14
10:43:30 agendum 14. "issue 586 wbr mechanics" taken up [from SteveF]
10:43:35 zakim, close item 9
10:43:35 agendum 9, Issue 553 Allow multiple meta-description elements if they have different lang values, closed
10:43:37 I see 11 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
10:43:37 1. Editorial Issues 487 and 310 [from chaals]
10:43:47 SF: Been around for a while not sure what to do.
10:44:51 … think we should align with what WHATWG says. It isn't a normative requirement, rendering is suggestions.
10:45:02 CMN: What do they say?
10:46:10 -> https://github.com/w3c/html/issues/586 issue 586
10:48:21 CMN: So the issue is that we suggest CSS to make it work, but in reality current browsers do it by magic?
10:48:23 SF: Yeah.
10:48:33 SF: Whatwg says the same as us.
10:48:44 CMN: Does it matter whether it works through unimplemented CSS or magic?
10:48:48 SF: Don't think so.
10:49:16 RESOLUTION: close wontfix
10:49:24 agenda?
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12:54:42 Topic: Siesta
12:54:57 Topic: Work :(
12:55:03 agenda?
12:55:27 zakim, close item 14
12:55:27 agendum 14, issue 586 wbr mechanics, closed
12:55:28 I see 10 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
12:55:28 1. Editorial Issues 487 and 310 [from chaals]
12:55:37 zakim, next item
12:55:37 agendum 1. "Editorial Issues 487 and 310" taken up [from chaals]
12:57:28 CMN: use active vs passive voice, and make code samples in a common style.
12:57:35 LJW: kill the active vs passive…
12:58:20 CMN: these are editorial conventions across the whole spec, can we move them to the editorial best practice?
12:58:26 LJW, SF, yes.
12:59:01 RESOLUTION: close 310, 487 and move the guidance to the documentation of editing practices.
13:00:27 XW: We should get a script to clean up invalid windows line breaks…
13:00:36 CMN: Do we *need* that?
13:01:41 zakim, close item 1
13:01:41 agendum 1, Editorial Issues 487 and 310, closed
13:01:42 I see 9 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
13:01:42 3. issues 342, 292, 290, 199 - focus handling, and whether we should make recommendations or just document a version of reality [from chaals]
13:02:07 zakim, next item
13:02:07 agendum 3. "issues 342, 292, 290, 199 - focus handling, and whether we should make recommendations or just document a version of reality" taken up [from chaals]
13:06:03 CMN: Where there is behaviour that seems unfriendly, should we make non-normative recommendations for what happens, hoping that we will get implementation?
13:06:17 SF: Seems reasonable to make suggestions that are not requirements…
13:06:45 CMN: this is still only going to be "question for the wg"
13:06:49 AD: seems reasonable
13:08:25 LJW: We should set the expectation on the browser and show that they do it before we put it into the spec, since otherwise developers cannot use it, unless we indicate that it would not work, and then we're in tricky space.
13:08:35 AD: So where to we raise it for browser developers?
13:08:53 XW: can we raise issues for stuff that should be done…
13:09:27 AD: If we want the spec to reflect reality, we can't describe what isn't implemented. If we have issues raised in the community we should raise it against browsers…
13:10:26 CMN: So let's raise browser bugs against the issues and point them to the issues.
13:10:43 SF: If we don't push this somehow we never get to where we're trying to go.
13:11:14 … if implementation isn't going to happen we can mark stuff as at-risk for CR.
13:12:23 LJW: So what do we do - make a speculative text, or not?
13:12:47 SF: It is reasonable to put things into WD, if they are not implemented…
13:13:02 XW: Do we have a list for at-risk features so far?
13:13:31 CMN: As far as I know there should be none, but we need to check carefully.
13:14:02 CMN: So if we put something in we would mark it at-risk instead of closing the issue?
13:14:06 XW: [nods]
13:15:53 CMN: So we can put advice about bugs in, if 1. they are marked at-risk, 2. There are browser bugs filed, 3. Anything not implemented is going to come out of the Recommendation, 4. we commit to actively reassess the issues for version.next
13:16:27 REOLUTION: we can put advice about bugs in, if 1. they are marked at-risk, 2. There are browser bugs filed, 3. Anything not implemented is going to come out of the Recommendation, 4. we commit to actively reassess the issues for version.next
13:16:48 s/REOLUTION/RESOLUTION/
13:16:58 zakim, close item 3
13:16:58 agendum 3, issues 342, 292, 290, 199 - focus handling, and whether we should make recommendations or just document a version of reality, closed
13:17:00 I see 8 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
13:17:00 5. Issue 819 are td cells in thead header cells? [from chaals]
13:17:07 zakim, next item
13:17:07 agendum 5. "Issue 819 are td cells in thead header cells?" taken up [from chaals]
13:17:59 -> https://w3c.github.io/html/tabular-data.html#the-thead-element description of thead
13:19:16 CMN: Spec says "a thead" definesrow or rows of column headers. If you put a th anywhere it is a header, but what happens for td that is in a thead - is it a header?
13:20:00 … the only useful test I came up with was running a screen reader to query column headers, and at least for VoiceOver td in thead is treated as a header, whereas if it's just the first row it isn't.
13:20:17 … Is that a useful approach to testing and are there other uses of headers where we could test this.
13:21:09 AD: paginated printing tools like PrinceXML might do it when they split a table across pages.
13:21:38 … we had a product in Canon that would do that.
13:22:03 CMN: is there import to spreadsheets that picks up headers at all?
13:23:35 ACTION: Chaals, find tools and test them.
13:24:09 SF: td in thead is not styled the same as TH
13:24:38 CMN: But Alex' point is whether the semantics of td in thead is different from th semantics…
13:24:54 SF: FF exposes td in thead as a cell not header in windows.
13:25:41 zakim, close this item
13:25:41 agendum 5 closed
13:25:43 I see 7 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
13:25:43 6. Issue 544 make style in body conforming [from AlexD]
13:25:47 zakim, next item
13:25:47 agendum 6. "Issue 544 make style in body conforming" taken up [from AlexD]
13:27:33 AD: A bit of controversy… logic says it is correct and browsers do it. It isn't what we say. The only impact is performance - you can get a re-layout so it's bad practice. Should we condone it? But 14% of major sites do this.
13:27:42