12:25:14 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #poe
12:25:14 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2017/03/27-poe-irc
12:25:16 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
12:25:16 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #poe
12:25:18 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be
12:25:18 <Zakim> I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot
12:25:19 <trackbot> Meeting: Permissions and Obligations Expression Working Group Teleconference
12:25:19 <trackbot> Date: 27 March 2017
12:25:25 <phila> regrets+ Simon, Caroline, Brian
12:25:29 <phila> Chair: Ben
12:25:34 <phila> agenda: https://www.w3.org/2016/poe/wiki/Meetings:Telecon20170327
12:25:52 <phila> RRSAgent, make logs public
12:27:49 <michaelS> michaelS has joined #poe
12:28:06 <michaelS> present+
12:28:19 <ivan> present+
12:28:32 <Serena> Serena has joined #poe
12:28:45 <renato> renato has joined #poe
12:31:58 <benws110> nick benws
12:32:05 <benws110> present+
12:32:15 <victor> victor has joined #poe
12:32:18 <victor> hi all
12:32:30 <renato> hi victor
12:32:37 <renato> present+
12:32:55 <victor> present+
12:33:30 <benws> present+
12:33:36 <Sabrina> Sabrina has joined #poe
12:34:06 <Serena> present+
12:34:08 <michaelS> scribe michaelS
12:34:18 <phila> scribe: michaelS
12:34:22 <phila> scribeNick: michaelS
12:34:31 <phila> Topic: Last week's minutes
12:34:36 <michaelS> benws: anybody want to raise an issue with last week's minutes
12:34:36 <phila> [NOTUC]
12:34:50 <phila> -> https://www.w3.org/2017/03/20-poe-minutes.html Last week's minutes
12:34:54 <michaelS> resolution: last week's minutes approved
12:34:55 <renato> https://www.w3.org/2016/poe/wiki/Use_Cases#POE.UC.37_Representing_regulations_using_ODRL
12:35:06 <phila> RESOLUTION: last week's minutes approved
12:35:15 <michaelS> topic: New Use Case
12:35:18 <phila> present+ Sabrina, phila
12:35:21 <Sabrina> present+ Sabrina
12:35:50 <michaelS> Sabrina: introduced the Use Case
12:36:28 <michaelS> ... it models the EU General Data Protection Regulation
12:36:57 <michaelS> ... it needs to cover that at a generic level but also in details
12:37:15 <michaelS> ... Article 12 added as an example
12:37:44 <michaelS> ... this article shows the important use of references to other articles
12:38:10 <benws> q?
12:38:10 <michaelS> ... the numbering of the articles has at least two levels
12:38:31 <michaelS> benws: any comments on that so far?
12:38:31 <phila> q+
12:38:35 <smyles> smyles has joined #poe
12:39:04 <smyles> present+
12:39:07 <michaelS> benws: does this requirement belong to a profile or to the general ODRL model?
12:39:21 <michaelS> Sabrina: this is a decision by this group
12:39:40 <benws> q?
12:40:05 <michaelS> renato: what does "refer to another article" mean?
12:40:37 <michaelS> Sabrina: that are dependencies - look at Article 12. This may transform to many duties.
12:41:17 <michaelS> ... to check if Article 12 is fullfilled the fulfillment of other articles is required
12:41:19 <benws> q?
12:42:04 <michaelS> phila: GDPR is very important it would be a big PR win if ODRL could show that it can cover it.
12:42:29 <michaelS> ... key question: is ODRL is a good tool for that purpose. Sabrina do you feel that?
12:42:46 <renato> q+
12:42:51 <benws> q+
12:42:55 <phila> ack me
12:42:58 <michaelS> Sabrina: ODRL is not a bad fish. We need to specify obligations and constraints
12:43:21 <renato> s/fish/fit/
12:43:30 <michaelS> ... There is work on taxonomies by other parties but less fitting.
12:44:13 <michaelS> renato: we could promote this as a profile. This would serve to explain how to create a profile
12:44:22 <ivan> q+
12:44:39 <michaelS> ... and this profile could be shown to a wide audience.
12:44:45 <ivan> ack renato
12:45:16 <michaelS> ... the relationships between the constraints and duties is demandingö
12:45:23 <ivan> q-
12:46:01 <michaelS> Sabrina: we have dependencies between the duties, we have constraints on duties, actions and parties
12:46:14 <michaelS> ... supported to create a profile for that.
12:47:49 <benws> q?
12:47:49 <michaelS> benws: to show that we could express regulations and licences by the same language would be fine
12:48:08 <michaelS> phil
12:48:21 <michaelS> phila: supported using ODRL for this purpose
12:49:22 <michaelS> Sabrina: we are basically defining obligiations = duties = complying with the regulations
12:50:07 <michaelS> ... if we run into problems we will come back to this group
12:50:36 <michaelS> ... when it comes to constraints: there are discrational ones
12:50:57 <smyles> q+
12:51:07 <phila> ack s
12:51:12 <phila> ack b
12:51:15 <michaelS> s/discrational/discretational
12:52:32 <michaelS> smyles: suggested to model optional constraints as permissions
12:52:54 <michaelS> Sabrina: that's not exactly the intention of the GDPR
12:53:31 <michaelS> ... there are statements like a recommendation - and we don't want to omit them
12:53:56 <renato> q+
12:54:20 <phila> ack r
12:54:55 <michaelS> renato: is thinking what this could look like in code: leftOperand say you may or may not use an icon
12:55:37 <michaelS> Sabrina: need for a discretional constraint: it would be good to meet this constraint but it doesn't stop the policy
12:55:42 <smyles> q+
12:55:59 <michaelS> ... if it is not met
12:56:39 <michaelS> Sabrina: for her and Simon some constraints a bit fuzzy, needs deeper reviews
12:56:39 <phila> ack s
12:57:06 <phila> q+
12:57:08 <michaelS> smyles: we may add a concept of recommendation = if you can, you should do that
12:57:32 <benws> q?
12:57:33 <michaelS> ... there could be levels of recommendation: strongly recommended ... and more
12:57:49 <michaelS> Sabrina: will review this suggestion
12:57:54 <renato> https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2119
12:57:57 <phila> The key words "MUST", "MUST NOT", "REQUIRED", "SHALL", "SHALL
12:57:57 <phila>       NOT", "SHOULD", "SHOULD NOT", "RECOMMENDED",  "MAY", and
12:57:57 <phila>       "OPTIONAL" in this document are to be interpreted as described in
12:57:57 <phila>       RFC 2119.
12:58:16 <benws> q?
12:58:21 <michaelS> phila: RFC2119 is a standard specifying things like that - could help
12:58:23 <phila> ack me
12:59:01 <michaelS> Sabrina: Dispensation = something is required, but there is a dispensation under specific condiditions.
12:59:50 <michaelS> ... and some articles say "you are not allowed" others say "unless party X allows that"
13:00:00 <victor> Dispensation: a :  an exemption from a law or from an impediment, vow, or oath may be granted a dispensation from the rule b :  a formal authorization requested a dispensation to form another lodge
13:00:09 <michaelS> ... in fact: an exception on an exception
13:00:28 <michaelS> ... may also be used
13:01:07 <benws> q?
13:02:05 <michaelS> renato: went over some more details of transforming DGPR into ODRL
13:02:16 <victor> q+
13:03:05 <michaelS> victor: thinks like that can be expressed by ODRL.
13:04:05 <michaelS> Sabrina: we are looking not only at GDPR but also legal regulations in general - this the existing ODRL data model work for us
13:04:28 <michaelS> s/this/is
13:04:38 <benws> q?
13:04:38 <michaelS> benws: what are "features"
13:04:50 <benws> ack v
13:05:18 <michaelS> victor: we could think about synonyms for hardwired constraints
13:05:34 <victor> q-
13:07:01 <michaelS> Sabrina: two more things: "Feature" = article 12 has various obligations, some are well defined, some don't stand on their own.
13:07:19 <michaelS> ... we are looking at conjunctions and disjunctions in this context
13:07:41 <benws> q?
13:07:43 <michaelS> ... transparency is the conjunction of all of them - we call them Features at the moment
13:08:41 <michaelS> Sabrina: we need additional constraints on the asset - they will span across multiple duties
13:09:18 <michaelS> renato: ODRL scope could work
13:09:25 <michaelS> Sabrina: agreed
13:10:04 <smyles> q+
13:10:23 <michaelS> ... we have an issue with the type of processing - e.g. how personal data may be used for marketing
13:12:00 <michaelS> smyles: the purpose is to define the nature of a party - right?
13:12:22 <michaelS> Sabrina: yes, depending on who you are rules may apply
13:13:02 <michaelS> smyles: why not to split up in constraints for group A and group B of persons
13:13:03 <phila> ack s
13:13:12 <benws> q+
13:13:32 <michaelS> smyles: wondered if inheritance could be used
13:14:32 <michaelS> Sabrina: the controllers for different purposes are different
13:14:33 <renato> q+
13:14:47 <michaelS> ... we look at what's there and then will come back to this group
13:15:11 <michaelS> ... the Wiki space could be used for discussions
13:15:16 <michaelS> benws: timeline?
13:15:43 <benws> q?
13:16:04 <michaelS> Sabrina: there are different groups of work: e.g. transforming the article and the sub-points - but that's not very usable.
13:16:34 <michaelS> ... in a next step obligations have to be pulled out of the articles - and that's a big work, will take months.
13:16:50 <michaelS> benws: does this timeline align with the ODRL timeline?
13:16:54 <michaelS> Sabrina: yes.
13:16:56 <benws> ack be
13:16:58 <phila> ack r
13:17:01 <benws> ack r
13:17:07 <michaelS> renato: do we need a new policy type "regulation"?
13:17:09 <michaelS> Sabrina: yes
13:17:55 <michaelS> benws: supported to use Wikipages for working on the transformation
13:18:02 <phila> Topic: Deliverables
13:18:03 <michaelS> Topic: Deliverables
13:18:12 <renato> https://www.w3.org/2016/poe/wiki/Deliverables
13:18:15 <phila> s/Topic: Deliverables//
13:18:43 <michaelS> renato: went over https://www.w3.org/2016/poe/wiki/Deliverables
13:19:14 <renato> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-poe-comments/2017Mar/0012.html
13:19:43 <benws> q?
13:19:44 <michaelS> ... we got a reply from EDRLabs
13:20:05 <renato> https://github.com/w3c/poe/issues/118
13:20:14 <michaelS> ... raised some concerns regarding periods
13:20:43 <michaelS> ... this needs an update of the definitions of date/time and period constraints
13:20:56 <michaelS> renato: re Horizontal reviews:
13:21:05 <michaelS> ... any news from Brian?
13:21:12 <michaelS> benws: has sent a reminder
13:21:13 <benws> q?
13:21:42 <michaelS> renato: reviews seem to be on track
13:22:17 <michaelS> benws: refered to a proposoal of Victor to hold a special meeting
13:22:49 <michaelS> ... = a call
13:23:23 <benws> q?
13:23:24 <michaelS> benws: asked Victor to launch a Doodgle survey for finding date and time
13:23:39 <phila> RRSAgent, draft minutes v2
13:23:39 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/03/27-poe-minutes.html phila
13:24:00 <michaelS> Topic: best practices
13:24:30 <benws> q?
13:24:33 <michaelS> benws: tried to reach out to James from Catapult, but the email did not work
13:24:50 <michaelS> Topic: open Actions
13:24:59 <michaelS> benws: only 3 on the issue tracker
13:25:02 <phila> s/RESOLVED: last week's minutes approved//
13:25:20 <phila> RRSAgent, draft minutes v2
13:25:20 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/03/27-poe-minutes.html phila
13:25:33 <renato> https://github.com/w3c/poe/issues/114
13:25:58 <michaelS> Topic: London F2F
13:26:03 <phila> s/RESOLUTION: last week's minutes approved//
13:26:13 <phila> RRSAgent, draft minutes v2
13:26:13 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/03/27-poe-minutes.html phila
13:26:59 <michaelS> benws: open issue is providing hotel rooms at TR rates - but Sabrina may have an alternative
13:27:37 <michaelS> victor: would appreciate to have times for the agenda items
13:27:53 <michaelS> bens: starting time 10am - ok?
13:28:10 <ivan> q+
13:28:46 <michaelS> renato: agenda will be based on requests from group members and currently ongoing work
13:29:05 <ivan> will there be possibiltiies for dial in?
13:29:16 <michaelS> benws: suggested 5:30pm as closing time
13:29:19 <ivan> thanks
13:29:26 <michaelS> benws: it will be possible to dial in too
13:29:41 <michaelS> benws: AOB?
13:29:41 <benws> q?
13:29:47 <benws> ack i
13:30:00 <michaelS> benws: none was raised - bye
13:30:01 <phila> RRSAgent, draft minutes
13:30:01 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/03/27-poe-minutes.html phila
13:30:07 <Serena> Serena has left #poe
13:30:23 <phila> RRSAgent, draft minutes v2
13:30:23 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/03/27-poe-minutes.html phila
14:11:38 <benws> benws has joined #poe
14:15:46 <benws2> benws2 has joined #poe
15:34:01 <Zakim> Zakim has left #poe
15:49:06 <benws> benws has joined #poe
15:52:31 <benws2> benws2 has joined #poe
17:34:43 <benws> benws has joined #poe
17:39:56 <benws2> benws2 has joined #poe
20:47:10 <phila> phila has joined #poe