16:59:08 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aria-apg
16:59:08 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2017/03/27-aria-apg-irc
16:59:28 <MichielBijl> chair: MattKing
16:59:42 <MichielBijl> rrsagent, make log public
16:59:53 <MichielBijl> rrsagent, make minutes
16:59:53 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/03/27-aria-apg-minutes.html MichielBijl
17:00:40 <jemma> jemma has joined #aria-apg
17:01:04 <annabbott> annabbott has joined #aria-apg
17:01:11 <MichielBijl> present+
17:01:17 <mck> mck has joined #aria-apg
17:02:03 <jemma> present+ JaEunJemmaKu
17:02:05 <annabbott> present+ AnnAbbott
17:02:14 <jemma> agenda?
17:02:39 <MichielBijl> meeting: ARIA APG TF
17:03:10 <MichielBijl> Agenda+ Current milestone review
17:03:17 <MichielBijl> Agenda+ Discuss schedule for heartbeat publication preparation
17:04:03 <MichielBijl> rrsagent, make minutes
17:04:03 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/03/27-aria-apg-minutes.html MichielBijl
17:04:58 <jamesn> jamesn has joined #aria-apg
17:05:05 <jamesn> present+
17:05:08 <jongund> jongund has joined #aria-apg
17:05:10 <mck> present+ matt_king
17:05:17 <jamesn> agenda?
17:05:24 <sirib> present+ShirishaBalusani
17:05:28 <jongund> present+ jongund
17:05:43 <jamesn> rrsagent, make log world
17:05:48 <jamesn> rrsagent, make minutes
17:05:48 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/03/27-aria-apg-minutes.html jamesn
17:06:01 <jamesn> zakim, who is here?
17:06:01 <Zakim> Present: MichielBijl, JaEunJemmaKu, AnnAbbott, jamesn, matt_king, ShirishaBalusani, jongund
17:06:04 <Zakim> On IRC I see jongund, jamesn, mck, annabbott, jemma, RRSAgent, Zakim, sirib, trackbot, MichielBijl
17:07:11 <MichielBijl> scribe: MichielBijl
17:07:36 <jamesn> No ScribeNick specified.  Guessing ScribeNick: MichielBijl
17:07:36 <jamesn> Inferring Scribes: MichielBijl
17:07:49 <jamesn> s/No ScribeNick specified.  Guessing ScribeNick: MichielBijl//
17:07:53 <MichielBijl> zakim, take up item 1
17:07:53 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Current milestone review" taken up [from MichielBijl]
17:08:00 <jamesn> s/Inferring Scribes: MichielBijl//
17:08:09 <MichielBijl> https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues?q=is%3Aopen+is%3Aissue+milestone%3A%22Jan+2017+Clean+Up%22+sort%3Aupdated-desc
17:08:59 <MichielBijl> https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/325
17:10:46 <MichielBijl> If a dialog is limited to interactions that either provide additional information or continue processing, it might set focus to the element deemed to be most frequently desired, such as a OK or Continue button.
17:11:48 <MichielBijl> MB: Why is it “it might set focus”?
17:12:03 <MichielBijl> MK: Design decision
17:12:10 <MichielBijl> We’re not using phrasing like should
17:13:22 <MichielBijl> MB: Can it still be “focus can be set” or something?
17:13:28 <MichielBijl> MK: Sure
17:14:05 <MichielBijl> MB: In this paragraph
17:14:05 <MichielBijl> When a dialog closes, focus typically returns to the element that had focus before the dialog was invoked. This is often the control that opened the dialog. In circumstances where that element no longer exists, focus is set on an element that supports a logical work flow.
17:14:11 <MichielBijl> Why is it typically returns and not simply “returns”?
17:14:36 <MichielBijl> MK: Because it might not exist anymore
17:15:06 <MichielBijl> Also if you open it from a menu, that menu item might not be visible anymore.
17:15:12 <jemma> +q
17:16:45 <MichielBijl> MB: The last sentence would sort of catch situations where you wouldn’t return focus?
17:16:52 <MichielBijl> MK: Not in all cases
17:17:00 <MichielBijl> Trying to think of cases where it wouldn’t
17:17:26 <MichielBijl> AA: The meaning of the sentence wouldn’t drastically change whether it would include typically or not?
17:17:34 <MichielBijl> MK: It’s different enough
17:18:34 <jamesn> Example - button to add rows to a table. Dialog pops up - how many rows do you want to add? Answer 5 and press ok. Now my focus should go to the new row, not the button.
17:18:35 <MichielBijl> MK: Also added guidance on aria-hidden:
17:18:36 <MichielBijl> Optionally, if content outside a dialog is completely inert and visually obscured to an extent that is intentionally unreadable, each element containing a portion of the inert layer has aria-hidden set to true. In this circumstance, the dialog container element cannot be a descendant of an element that has aria-hidden set to true. However, if content outside
17:18:36 <MichielBijl> a modal dialog is visually discernable, aria-hidden is not present.
17:21:02 <MichielBijl> JK: What is the use case?
17:21:03 <MichielBijl> JN: Use case here is that you don’t want the stuff to be visible
17:21:38 <MichielBijl> We should motivate advise people to use aria-modal
17:21:45 <MichielBijl> MK: I tried to write it that way
17:21:57 <MichielBijl> If that doesn’t come across, than we need to change it.
17:22:36 <MichielBijl> Tried to write an anti pattern without it looking like an anti pattern
17:23:30 <MichielBijl> aria-modal doesn’t put any requirements on AT
17:23:36 <MichielBijl> JN: Really?
17:23:42 <MichielBijl> MK: As far as I’m aware, yes.
17:24:32 <MichielBijl> JN: It works in iOS 10
17:24:38 <MichielBijl> MK: That’s iOS, not web
17:24:48 <MichielBijl> JN: I mean, I tested it on web on iOS
17:25:36 <MichielBijl> JN: Often you put a background up to slightly obfuscate the inactive part of the page.
17:25:55 <MichielBijl> MK: It starts making it harder to judge when to use modal
17:27:20 <jemma> https://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-1.1/#aria-modal
17:27:56 <MichielBijl> MB: If you use a modal dialog you can’t interact with the rest of the page, keyboard, at or visually, shouldn’t matter
17:28:02 <MichielBijl> B?: Yeah
17:28:31 <MichielBijl> MK: Okay, what if you should be able to interact with he rest of the page?
17:28:53 <MichielBijl> B?: Well, then users could wander off to parts not related to the modal. That doesn’t make sense.
17:29:10 <MichielBijl> MK: Trying to think of use cases
17:29:37 <MichielBijl> If people who can’t see are able to read outside of the modal, and that’s useful to them
17:30:02 <MichielBijl> MB: In that case, you should read the content before you open the modal dialog surely?
17:30:25 <MichielBijl> JN: Most dialogs I see cover the entire page anyway
17:30:32 <MichielBijl> In most cases anyway
17:30:37 <MichielBijl> Don’t think we should worry too much
17:31:05 <MichielBijl> MK: Bryan was arguing that aria-modal is pretty useful
17:31:16 <MichielBijl> Since this is the 1.1 guide, should we say aria-hidden not to be used?
17:31:23 <MichielBijl> B?: Would never say never.
17:31:39 <MichielBijl> JN: ??
17:31:44 <MichielBijl> B?: That makes sense
17:31:53 <MichielBijl> JN: I can take the task to do that
17:33:27 <MichielBijl> MK: If you want to make a note in the issue that’s good enough
17:33:53 <MichielBijl> topic: question about modal dialog
17:34:10 <jamesn> s/??/add a note saying that in ARIA 1.1 we have aria-modal which replaces the need to use aria-hidden in which was needed in aria 1.0 for the same functionality.
17:34:44 <MichielBijl> s/topic: question about modal dialog//
17:35:00 <MichielBijl> JN: Will do that
17:35:14 <sirib> Can you please give me link to example?
17:35:15 <MichielBijl> MK: Wondering how AT vendors are going to interpret it
17:35:20 <MichielBijl> Our wording is important
17:35:27 <MichielBijl> We’ll save that conversation for alter
17:35:47 <MichielBijl> AA: Thought AT venders developed based on the spec, not the APG
17:35:57 <jemma> here is the example, siri. http://w3c.github.io/aria-practices/examples/dialog-modal/dialog.html#
17:35:58 <MichielBijl> MK: Spec doesn’t tell vendors what to do
17:36:12 <MichielBijl> AA: And the APG does?
17:36:24 <MichielBijl> MK: No, but it gives them practical advise on how users will interact with it
17:37:37 <MichielBijl> topic: modal dialog example
17:37:38 <MichielBijl> https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/321
17:37:56 <MichielBijl> example: http://w3c.github.io/aria-practices/examples/dialog-modal/dialog.html
17:38:41 <MichielBijl> MK: All the changes that were made last week were related to Bryan’s feedback
17:38:54 <MichielBijl> And I’ve tested in all the browsers I have available to me
17:39:09 <MichielBijl> Jemma you were talking about the add delivery address dialog
17:43:15 <MichielBijl> JK: The styling is confusing, because the dialog that opens when you activate “accepting an alternative form” it has the exact same size as the previous one.
17:43:34 <MichielBijl> MK: Is it confusing that you open layers of dialogs?
17:43:55 <MichielBijl> JN: Yes, it’s the exact same size as the previous one and is the exact same thing
17:44:49 <MichielBijl> MK: Michiel, you were talking about doing a new design, is this something you can solve with CSS?
17:45:08 <MichielBijl> MB: Yes, I’ll have a look, although I’m not sure how to handle layered dialogs
17:45:14 <MichielBijl> MK: Good
17:45:38 <MichielBijl> JN: I’m now in a situation where I can’t close the “Verification Result” dialog
17:45:47 <MichielBijl> But don’t ask me to reproduce it
17:46:35 <MichielBijl> There’s also an issue on mobile
17:46:44 <MichielBijl> Should I put an comment in for that
17:46:49 <MichielBijl> The background scrolls
17:46:58 <MichielBijl> MK: Does it happen the same way in all the dialogs?
17:47:00 <MichielBijl> JN: yes.
17:47:40 <MichielBijl> MK: Let’s first do the CSS
17:48:14 <MichielBijl> Michiel, when you make changes, can you make a PR so I can review?
17:48:16 <MichielBijl> MB: Sure.
17:48:26 <MichielBijl> MK: James, which mobile device were you using
17:49:19 <MichielBijl> SB: The special instructions
17:49:42 <MichielBijl> Can you add aria-describedby to the special instructions so that the user can hear that too?
17:50:28 <MichielBijl> MK: Yeah I can do that
17:51:48 <MichielBijl> JN: I tested on iOS
17:52:55 <MichielBijl> ack jemma
17:53:14 <MichielBijl> AA: What is #334?
17:53:22 <MichielBijl> MK: That’s Michiel working on a new design
17:53:26 <MichielBijl> CSS
17:53:41 <MichielBijl> topic: heartbeat publication
17:54:06 <MichielBijl> MK: Didn’t want to do another publication before all these design pattern reviews are done.
17:54:35 <MichielBijl> Thought it’d be more valuable if the group felt the document was in a more stable form
17:54:49 <MichielBijl> AA: You mean done?
17:54:59 <MichielBijl> MK: yeah, although that’s sort of relative in this world ;)
17:56:17 <MichielBijl> Not feeling super ready to get through with this
17:56:28 <MichielBijl> Let’s see how far we get in the next two weeks
17:56:38 <MichielBijl> I don’t have the bandwidth at the moment
17:56:48 <MichielBijl> before the weekend of April 7th
17:57:16 <MichielBijl> JN: I’ll be able to put a fair amount of work into the APG next week.
17:57:30 <MichielBijl> MK: We’ll asses on April 10th.
17:58:19 <MichielBijl> s/asses/assess/
17:58:57 <MichielBijl> MK: Jon you have some open PRs
17:59:03 <MichielBijl> JG: Did some work this morning
17:59:32 <MichielBijl> MK: We can talk about the reviews after the meeting
17:59:37 <MichielBijl> JG: That would be good
18:01:11 <MichielBijl> MK: Michiel are you able to get your issues done?
18:01:13 <MichielBijl> MB: Yes
18:01:20 <MichielBijl> MK: Including the syntax one?
18:01:23 <MichielBijl> MB: O right, yes
18:01:37 <MichielBijl> MK: Anybody else that has some cycles to take up something?
18:01:56 <MichielBijl> AA: Can you let us know explicitly if you want us to review something?
18:02:22 <MichielBijl> MK: Would it be helpful if you completed your review and you provided your comments
18:02:34 <MichielBijl> That I’d take you off the owners list?
18:02:59 <MichielBijl> AA: No that’s fine, just when want us t look at something again
18:03:18 <MichielBijl> MK: Okay, I’ll be extra explicit
18:03:36 <MichielBijl> RRSAgent, make minutes
18:03:36 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/03/27-aria-apg-minutes.html MichielBijl