12:01:02 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #shapes
12:01:02 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2017/03/15-shapes-irc
12:01:04 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs rdf-data-shapes
12:01:04 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #shapes
12:01:06 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be SHAPES
12:01:06 <Zakim> ok, trackbot
12:01:07 <trackbot> Meeting: RDF Data Shapes Working Group Teleconference
12:01:07 <trackbot> Date: 15 March 2017
12:01:37 <Dimitris> Dimitris has joined #shapes
12:01:42 <TallTed> RRSAgent, draft minutes
12:01:42 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/03/15-shapes-minutes.html TallTed
12:01:47 <TallTed> RRSAgent, make logs public
12:01:47 <hknublau> scribenick: hknublau
12:01:58 <hknublau> present+
12:02:04 <TallTed> present+
12:02:10 <pano> present+
12:02:17 <TallTed> chair: TallTed
12:02:25 <Dimitris> regrets for the meeting, unfortunately I won't make it today
12:02:54 <TallTed> regrets: Dimitris
12:03:24 <dallemang> dallemang has joined #shapes
12:05:12 <ipolikof> ipolikof has joined #shapes
12:05:19 <ipolikof> present+
12:06:13 <sandro> present+
12:07:03 <sandro> https://github.com/w3c/data-shapes/issues
12:08:01 <sandro> https://www.w3.org/TR/webmention/
12:09:27 <sandro> https://github.com/w3c/webmention/blob/master/draft/index.html
12:11:34 <TallTed> TOPIC: admin
12:11:34 <TallTed> PROPOSED: Approve minutes of the 08 Mar 2017 Telecon: https://www.w3.org/2017/03/08-shapes-minutes.html
12:11:42 <hknublau> +1
12:11:53 <ipolikof> +1
12:12:02 <pano> +1
12:12:03 <sandro> +1
12:12:11 <TallTed> RESOLVED: Approve minutes of the 08 Mar 2017 Telecon: https://www.w3.org/2017/03/08-shapes-minutes.html
12:14:46 <TallTed> TOPIC: Open Issues
12:14:54 <TallTed> issue-234?
12:14:54 <trackbot> issue-234 -- Public comment https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-shapes/2017Feb/0165.html -- open
12:14:54 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2014/data-shapes/track/issues/234
12:16:20 <hknublau> TallTed: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-shapes/2017Mar/0004.html
12:17:12 <hknublau> present+ dallemang
12:17:14 <TallTed> PROPOSED: Close ISSUE-234 as addressed by https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-shapes/2017Mar/0004.html ; any continuing concerns to be raised as independent issues via github
12:17:24 <hknublau> +1
12:17:26 <ipolikof> +1
12:17:34 <sandro> +1
12:18:11 <pano> +!
12:18:13 <pano> +1
12:18:25 <dallemang> +1
12:18:27 <TallTed> RESOLVED: Close ISSUE-234 as addressed by https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-shapes/2017Mar/0004.html ; any continuing concerns to be raised as independent issues via github
12:19:31 <hknublau> TOPIC: GitHub Issues https://github.com/w3c/data-shapes/issues
12:19:39 <TallTed> TOPIC: Problems editing SHACL with Protégé  - https://github.com/w3c/data-shapes/issues/32
12:22:14 <sandro> hknublau: Protege stores RDF using OWLAPI, so if you load RDF and save it again, often it's changed
12:22:34 <sandro> dallemang: what about modifying protege?
12:22:49 <sandro> hknublau: There were some attempts 6 months ago
12:23:49 <sandro> hknublau: I spoke to maintainter, and they acknowledged the issue, but were not committing to addressing it
12:24:11 <sandro> dallemang: I've come across this problem with OWLAPI apart from SHACL, too
12:24:27 <hknublau> TallTed: Maybe we can add a disclaimer
12:24:27 <sandro> hknublau: Yes, problem with OWLAPI, when they switched away from frames
12:25:05 <hknublau> dallemang: From an adoption perspective this doesn't really help
12:25:33 <sandro> "I would recommend making all the properties that attach to Classes and Properties be annotation properties."
12:25:43 <sandro> (from commenter)
12:25:51 <hknublau> ... by turning them into annotation properties we can tell OWL to be quiet
12:27:00 <sandro> hknublau: any 3rd party can make a file like this for protege; it will never load our namespace file
12:27:09 <sandro> q+
12:27:39 <hknublau> dallemang: We could turn that hint into a note to implementers
12:28:34 <hknublau> @sandro: why not put these changes into our own TTL file?
12:28:56 <hknublau> dallemang: I am concerned we are making adjustments to a standard just for one tool.
12:30:19 <sandro> hknublau: We'd have to remove domain & range, so it would be a change
12:30:55 <hknublau> TallTed: The use of RDFS/inferencing was topic of very long discussions in the past.
12:31:23 <Dimitris> Dimitris has left #shapes
12:31:36 <hknublau> ack @sandro
12:33:22 <hknublau> @sandro: The commenter on GitHub should close the issue when satisfied, i.e. we should ask him
12:33:51 <hknublau> http://w3c.github.io/data-shapes/shacl/
12:34:16 <TallTed> TOPIC: Inclusion of sh:phase and sh:Phase - https://github.com/w3c/data-shapes/issues/35
12:34:55 <ipolikof> I have a hard stop today, will have to leave by 9am
12:35:57 <hknublau> pano: Shapes can be validated in different phases, e.g. test, production
12:36:59 <hknublau> @sandro: Workflow could also be handled via different files/graphs
12:38:07 <hknublau> hknublau: There could also be other dimensions, e.g. authors
12:38:49 <hknublau> TallTed: A possible response would be to "you can achieve this by doing XY", RDF allows combination of different namespaces.
12:40:55 <TallTed> TOPIC: Ambiguity in examples - https://github.com/w3c/data-shapes/issues/36
12:42:44 <hknublau> hknublau: this is about avoiding self-references, e.g. replace Person with School, Company or Address
12:43:27 <hknublau> TallTed: seems like a viable fix to just switch to something else
12:45:23 <sandro> https://github.com/w3c/data-shapes/pulls
12:47:48 <hknublau> hknublau: I'll reject the two pull requests - filter shapes are outdated, Eric's change is tricky to merge at this stage and not essential.
12:48:37 <hknublau> TOPIC: Public comments
12:49:10 <hknublau> @sandro: Test methodology questions don't need to be addressed before CR
12:50:57 <hknublau> @sandro: We should collect the endorsements on a wiki page, and link it from CR transition
12:57:32 <sandro> "Intent to Implement" emails
12:58:30 <ipolikof> have to leave
12:59:17 <sandro> https://www.w3.org/2014/data-shapes/wiki/Main_Page#Implementations
13:01:54 <hknublau> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-shapes/2017Mar/0034.html
13:03:15 <hknublau> @sandro: My impression is that different implementations may indeed produce different results
13:03:56 <sandro> hknublau: I'm keen on interop here, that's why we have test cases
13:05:33 <Nicky> Nicky has joined #shapes
13:06:17 <hknublau> TallTed: What is interoperability.
13:06:33 <hknublau> ... the validation report is primarily for humans, less for machine actions
13:07:24 <hknublau> ... therefore doesn't need to be 100% identical
13:07:30 <Nicky> present+
13:07:37 <hknublau> @sandro: The syntax at least needs to be interoperable
13:09:59 <hknublau> dallemang: Expect Protege plugins etc to work with violation reports
13:11:06 <hknublau> @sandro: with a command line tool, you'd want "line numbers" in the TTL file
13:13:24 <hknublau> dallemang: I would use SPARQL to query data and results graph together
13:17:20 <hknublau> (Discussion about test format)
13:30:03 <TallTed> TOPIC: tracking comments
13:33:28 <TallTed> TOPIC: process toward CR
13:33:30 <TallTed> https://www.w3.org/2014/data-shapes/wiki/CR-Transition-Request
13:35:29 <hknublau> @sandro: Dependencies met is often forgotten, but they look OK in SHACL.
13:36:15 <hknublau> ... looks good overall
13:38:06 <TallTed> RRSAgent, draft minutes
13:38:06 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/03/15-shapes-minutes.html TallTed
13:38:13 <TallTed> RRSAgent, make logs public
13:38:41 <TallTed> trackbot, end meeting
13:38:41 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
13:38:41 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been hknublau, TallTed, pano, ipolikof, sandro, dallemang, !, Nicky
13:38:49 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
13:38:49 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/03/15-shapes-minutes.html trackbot
13:38:50 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
13:38:50 <RRSAgent> I see no action items