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16:00:10 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
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16:00:12 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be TRACK
16:00:12 <Zakim> ok, trackbot
16:00:13 <trackbot> Meeting: Tracking Protection Working Group Teleconference
16:00:13 <trackbot> Date: 13 March 2017
16:01:02 <Bert> Scribenick: Bert
16:01:20 <Bert> Chair: schunter
16:03:04 <rvaneijk> rvaneijk has joined #dnt
16:03:46 <schunter> The first technical issue I want to discuss is our old friend issue 12: https://github.com/w3c/dnt/issues/12
16:05:14 <fielding> fielding has joined #dnt
16:05:30 <Bert> Topic: Reminders
16:05:36 <Bert> schunter: Weekly call now!
16:05:46 <Bert> ... Tomorrow is last date for issues.
16:06:01 <Bert> ... I created a milestone in github.
16:06:18 <Bert> ... Everyhting that comes later doesn't get labeled with the milestone.
16:06:32 <fielding> works for me
16:06:47 <Bert> ... Deutsche Telecom is active on DNT implem and may send somebody to the WG.
16:07:21 <Bert> mikeoneill: the APIs may turn into a n Open Source library.
16:07:33 <Bert> ... I'll tell more about it when I'm done.
16:07:43 <Bert> ... All the plumbing.
16:07:53 <Bert> schunter: That may speed up adoption.
16:07:56 <fielding> The issue milestone that Matthias referred to is https://github.com/w3c/dnt/issues?q=is%3Aopen+is%3Aissue+milestone%3ATPE-CR-April-2017
16:08:14 <Bert> Topic: Exit criteria
16:08:34 <Bert> schunter: Exit Criteria between CR and REC
16:08:37 <fielding> I have moved the TPE editors draft to https://w3c.github.io/dnt/drafts/tracking-dnt.html
16:09:07 <Bert> -> https://www.w3.org/2017/Process-20170301/#implementation-experience Implementation Experience (Process Doc)
16:09:18 <rvaneijk> Bert: based on process document
16:09:29 <rvaneijk> ... describes how to set up exit criteria
16:09:41 <rvaneijk> ... useful to go over the points in the document
16:09:52 <rvaneijk> 1st point: features implemnted?
16:10:12 <rvaneijk> ... definition of a feature, normative requirements
16:10:23 <rvaneijk> ... report that tests have been executed
16:10:38 <rvaneijk> ... multiple implementstions required, TWO, independent ones.
16:10:51 <rvaneijk> e.g. opera and chrome would be the same and count as one
16:11:03 <rvaneijk> ... matter of interpretation of what is independent.
16:11:34 <rvaneijk> matthias: on the clinet side and on the server side 2 implementations?
16:11:48 <rvaneijk> mattias, does each feature need 2 implementations?
16:12:07 <rvaneijk> Bert: no. usually if every features is implemented somewhere is enough.
16:12:35 <rvaneijk> Matthias: if badger implements some, IE also some, enough?
16:12:53 <rvaneijk> Bert: correct, but watch out for dedencies.
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16:13:23 <rvaneijk> ... 3rd point: impolementations from outside the workinggroup is preferred.
16:13:49 <rvaneijk> ... implementations need to be available to everyone, not just within the working group
16:14:24 <rvaneijk> ... servers and cllients: we need 1 sample of each type. Servers and clients doing parts of the spec.
16:14:50 <rvaneijk> ... so if you describe multieple types in the spec, for each type you need some implementation to demonstrate on each side
16:15:12 <rvaneijk> ... Director decides whether next level of document starts.
16:16:11 <rvaneijk> ... members need to be convinced as well.
16:16:39 <rvaneijk> ... if opposing views, the director decides, ( /me not a democracy by votes)
16:16:49 <rvaneijk> ... solid test suite needed.
16:17:32 <rvaneijk> ... Above is the general process towards recommended standard.
16:18:38 <rvaneijk> ... not touched on native implementations, plugins. Native is most convincing. Other types of implementations do count however. Especially if people are using plugins. Example of SVG.
16:19:00 <rvaneijk> ... But plugins may not be the most convincing type of convincing argument.
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16:19:37 <rvaneijk> mattias: not a black and white decision tree.
16:20:03 <rvaneijk> ... it is at the end discussions/arm twisting with the director.
16:20:23 <rvaneijk> ... exit criteria := potential discussion inputs
16:20:55 <rvaneijk> bert: most working groups create their own exit criteria, we consider our work done as a,b,c.
16:21:56 <rvaneijk> ... CSs group does this. To be celar about what the outcome of the group is. Test reports etc. done mechanically.
16:22:09 <rvaneijk> ... is for the working group itself.
16:23:10 <rvaneijk> ... helpful would be to prepare for answers, devils advocate strategy.
16:23:39 <rvaneijk> Mike: web page with javascripts that execute parts of the API. Could we hook these into our project?
16:23:53 <rvaneijk> matthias: Good idea to keep track of this.
16:24:17 <rvaneijk> Bert: not sure if wiki accepts javascript. Pointers may be needed.
16:24:19 <vincent__> vincent__ has joined #dnt
16:24:42 <rvaneijk> Mike: javascript could go on any page. Purpose is to chekc whether the API is working.
16:25:09 <rvaneijk> ... would be nice to move it to W3C resource.
16:25:33 <Bert> present+
16:25:41 <Bert> Scribenick: Bert
16:25:58 <fielding> present+
16:26:37 <Bert> SimonK: I'm from cable labs.
16:27:51 <Bert> ... I'll look at github, and try to be on the call if needed.
16:28:21 <Bert> schunter: Idea is to get rid of cookie banners.
16:28:56 <Bert> simonk: Is thgere a high-level summary somewhere?
16:29:13 <Bert> schunter: The main doc is TPE
16:29:29 <Bert> ... We don't have formal reference code.
16:29:31 <rvaneijk> https://github.com/w3c/dnt/blob/master/drafts/tracking-dnt.html
16:30:11 <rvaneijk> q?
16:30:14 <Bert> Brendan: I work for a spin-off of IAB
16:30:25 <Bert> ... I was in the WG a while ago.
16:30:26 <rvaneijk> q+ question to Brendan
16:30:47 <Bert> ... Tech Lab works as technology component for IAB worldwide.
16:31:10 <rvaneijk> q+
16:31:19 <rvaneijk> q- question
16:31:21 <Bert> ... I think I will be able to bring clarifying questions from IAB members.
16:31:33 <Bert> ... And make sure there is an informed populace.
16:32:06 <Bert> schunter: Would be interesting to us if your members can bring questions & feedback.
16:32:25 <Bert> ... spec is 95% done. Don't expect many changes.
16:32:57 <Bert> ... We used to work on Tracking Compliance, but that work is paused.
16:33:39 <Bert> Topic: Issue 12
16:33:40 <fielding> https://github.com/w3c/dnt/issues/12
16:33:46 <fielding> already approved
16:34:00 <rvaneijk> q-
16:34:11 <Bert> fielding: I'm supposed to add something to the draft.
16:34:38 <Bert> mikeoneill: I'll send a patch
16:34:47 <Bert> Topic: Issue 2
16:34:48 <fielding> https://github.com/w3c/dnt/issues/2
16:34:56 <Bert> schunter: But no Walter today...
16:34:58 <rvaneijk> q+
16:35:08 <Bert> ... Push to next week?
16:35:11 <Bert> Topic: Issue 19
16:35:14 <fielding> https://github.com/w3c/dnt/issues/19
16:35:40 <Bert> mikeoneill: I read the exception stuff again.
16:35:58 <Bert> ... I think you can call an exception in an iframe.
16:36:14 <Bert> ... And then dynamically create iframes.
16:36:28 <Bert> ... But user could be unaware of the subresource.
16:36:36 <Bert> schunter: Can yu explain the issue?
16:37:13 <Bert> mikeoneill: Take yahoo, e.g., they have sub domains.
16:37:32 <Bert> ... When asking consent, they might also wnt to ask consent for other domains.
16:38:02 <Bert> ... If you can execute the JS API in an iframe, that coul dbe an iframe from a subdomain.
16:38:25 <Bert> ... They then commuinicate with one another in some way and collect consent.
16:38:37 <Bert> schunter: So you say we don't need to chnage the spec?
16:38:46 <Bert> ... Add an implementation guidance?
16:38:57 <Bert> mikeoneill: I'm suggesting some normative text as well.
16:39:27 <Bert> ... If a contrlller can ask consent for multiple domains, how does that work in the browser UI?
16:39:44 <Bert> ... How to revoke multiple consents from the same controller?
16:40:03 <Bert> schunter: Other example Alphabet, which has google, youtube, etc.
16:40:35 <Bert> ... The cannot ask a consent for Alphabet as a whole, because all have different domains.
16:41:27 <Bert> ... Browser will have consents for each domain, while user may have consented to Alphabet and gets confused when the browser shows those other names.
16:42:04 <Bert> ... Advise to browser is to keep the original context info for the user.
16:42:29 <Bert> mikeoneill: If it is an iframe, the iframe must have a @@
16:42:48 <Bert> ... And then next question: what about a Web Worker instead of an iframe?
16:42:49 <fielding> q+
16:43:42 <Bert> schunter: So good idea to keep tsr
16:43:54 <fielding> ack rv
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16:44:18 <Bert> fielding: Shouldn't worry too much about implem details.
16:44:51 <fielding> ack me
16:45:03 <Bert> ... If we say anything, we should say that the sites for which exceptions are added must have a tsr.
16:45:24 <Bert> schunter: Is it required to have a tsr when you register an exeption?
16:45:45 <Bert> fielding: Not a requirement. Requeuirement is to implement the protocol.
16:45:48 <walter> Bert: argh, caught up in DST
16:46:03 <vincent_> Isn't that issue 21?
16:46:25 <Bert> schunter: If there is no tsr, user doesn't know what he is saying yes to.
16:46:55 <vincent_> I agree
16:47:05 <fielding> I mentioned that instead of worrying about how the exception is made, make it a general requirement that the site's with a granted exception must implement the protocol (including having a TSR).
16:47:09 <Bert> rvaneijk: The information requirement goes before.
16:47:41 <Bert> ... I agree with the proposal for issue 19
16:48:19 <Bert> mikeoneill: I could kill issue 19 and make an issue instead about requirement for tsr
16:48:34 <Bert> schunter: is that issue 21?
16:48:48 <Bert> mikeoneill: Yeah, could tie them together.
16:49:24 <Bert> schunter: Issue 19 is resolved: keep data from the tsr, but we don't say exactly how.
16:49:34 <Bert> mikeoneill: OK, I'll edit the issue
16:50:19 <Bert> schunter: Issue 21 is that you may only call the API if you have published a TSR.
16:50:27 <Bert> ... We need text for that.
16:50:31 <Bert> ... Any volunteer?
16:50:43 <Bert> mikeoneill: I have some text to start with.
16:51:04 <Bert> schunter: But I wouldn't make requirements on the tsr itelf, other that it must exist.
16:51:19 <Bert> ... No mandatory fields.
16:51:30 <walter> schunter: we can discuss issue #2 this week
16:51:30 <Bert> ... Just a "valid tsr"
16:51:50 <Bert> mikeoneill: Does that include that it must have a controller property?
16:51:58 <Bert> schunter: I don't remember.
16:52:06 <Bert> mikeoneill: It's currently not requried.
16:52:26 <Bert> schunter: Then you should make an issue about what are the required fields for a valid tsr.
16:52:38 <Bert> Topic: issue 13
16:52:44 <walter> q+
16:53:21 <Bert> mikeoneill: Pb with dnt property is that it is a single string.
16:53:36 <fielding> note that controller is optional because it has a default of the site's domain
16:53:37 <Bert> ... Exception does not change the property.
16:53:59 <Bert> ... That's why we considered making it a Promise.
16:54:08 <Bert> ... But that is a radical change.
16:54:23 <Bert> ... So maybe create a dnt event.
16:54:40 <fielding> https://github.com/w3c/dnt/issues/13
16:54:47 <Bert> ... Javascript will read the dnt property.
16:55:07 <Bert> ... It will be the value when the context was initiated.
16:55:30 <Bert> ... So would be nice to have an event dntChangeEvent
16:55:47 <Bert> ... To make it more usable for developers.
16:56:17 <Bert> ... Thoughts?
16:56:50 <Bert> Vincent: When is this sent?
16:57:14 <Bert> mikeoneill: Each browsing context for subresouces could fire an event.
16:57:53 <Bert> fielding: I'm not sure tehere is use case where the user doesn't want to go to a new page.
16:58:04 <Bert> mikeoneill: May be a Service worker instead of a page.
16:58:18 <rvaneijk> I created Issue 23 on the issue of what are the required fields for a valid tsr.
16:58:40 <Bert> fielding: The server tells the JS to register an exception, so why doesn;t it tell the JS to chnage the browsing context as well?
16:59:17 <Bert> ... The value is for the window that was loaded. It is not for the individual iframes inside.
16:59:37 <Bert> mikeoneill: It would eb useful in my API tester.
17:00:15 <Bert> ... The thing that fired it... It only returns whether there is an exception, not what is in it.
17:00:30 <Bert> ... At the moment you will have to poll it.
17:00:38 <Bert> schunter: Seems a bit of a corner case.
17:00:48 <Bert> ... Maybe we can fix it later.
17:01:05 <Bert> mikeoneill: It is sugar coating, makes things nicer.
17:01:27 <Bert> schunter: If it is only "nice to have", then I'd say it's the next version.
17:01:45 <Bert> ... Objections to not fixing this now?
17:02:08 <Bert> fielding: I think if we did it, it would be under a different name.
17:02:48 <Bert> schunter: Could be an attribute
17:03:09 <Bert> mikeoneill: Would be nice to make the existing dnt an event as well as a string.
17:04:02 <Bert> fielding: I don't have an opinion on closing or keeping the issue.
17:04:12 <Bert> schunter: OK, We'll keep it open.
17:04:18 <aleecia_> have a great week!
17:05:26 <Bert> walter: can we do issue 2?
17:05:31 <Bert> schunter: Out of time.
19:04:40 <fielding> rrsagent, make minutes v2
19:04:40 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/03/13-dnt-minutes.html fielding
19:34:41 <Zakim> Zakim has left #dnt
19:59:41 <Bert> zakim, list participants
19:59:59 <Bert> rrsagent, make minutes v2
19:59:59 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/03/13-dnt-minutes.html Bert
20:01:00 <Bert> i/Bert: based on process document/Scribenick: rvaneijk
20:01:02 <Bert> rrsagent, make minutes v2
20:01:02 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/03/13-dnt-minutes.html Bert
20:02:47 <Bert> previous meeting: http://www.w3.org/2017/03/06-dnt-minutes.html
20:03:53 <Bert> agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-tracking/2017Mar/0008.html
20:03:57 <Bert> rrsagent, make minutes v2
20:03:57 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/03/13-dnt-minutes.html Bert
20:06:39 <Bert> present+ mikeoneill, Vincent, Brendan, SimonK
20:06:40 <Bert> rrsagent, make minutes v2
20:06:40 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/03/13-dnt-minutes.html Bert
20:43:44 <Bert> RRSAgent, bye
20:43:44 <RRSAgent> I see no action items