04:51:58 RRSAgent has joined #auto 04:51:58 logging to http://www.w3.org/2017/02/14-auto-irc 04:52:00 RRSAgent, make logs public 04:52:03 Zakim, this will be 04:52:03 I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot 04:52:03 Meeting: Automotive Working Group Teleconference 04:52:03 Date: 14 February 2017 04:57:42 kaz has joined #auto 04:57:52 fulup-iotbzh has joined #auto 04:58:40 hira has joined #auto 04:59:33 hi 05:00:20 urata_access has joined #auto 05:00:27 hira, can you join the call? 05:00:36 urata_access, what about you? 05:01:13 Present+ Fulup, Ted 05:01:23 kaz2 has joined #auto 05:01:24 Present+ Wonsuk 05:01:36 no I can't access to WebEx 05:03:00 ok. now I'm connecting 05:03:04 Present+ Hira 05:03:19 Present+ Urata, Kaz 05:04:18 Present+ Paul 05:04:56 PatrickLue has joined #auto 05:05:08 present- Adam 05:05:17 present- Kevin 05:05:24 present- PatrickB 05:05:32 present- Rudi 05:05:45 present- Mike 05:06:15 present- Powell 05:06:33 wonsuk has joined #auto 05:07:13 https://www.w3.org/community/autowebplatform/wiki/ViWi#Open_Discussion_Points 05:07:19 Paul has joined #auto 05:07:54 i|https|Discussion point:| 05:08:09 Paul: a couple of these open discussion points came from PatrickL and I added the others 05:08:37 … you are gluing a web runtime to a host vehicle 05:09:30 … we discussed domains in a vehicle before 05:09:56 … we want to give a developer a common way of accessing information instead of a mixed and matched approach 05:10:21 … really it comes down to REST or not 05:11:03 rrsagent, make log public 05:11:06 rrsagent, draft minutes 05:11:06 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/02/14-auto-minutes.html kaz 05:11:28 … web sockets make sense for signals not so much for media tuning 05:11:47 Fulup: I haven't discussed what we do in AGL yet and we do both in a common way 05:11:56 Chair: Paul, Wonsuk 05:12:06 … we merge and use the same mechanism 05:12:25 … we don't really care about the transport layer, we have an abstract layer 05:12:30 present+ PatrickL 05:12:55 … for media REST or DBUS is good, not as much with signals where we use sockets 05:13:26 PatrickL: you need to have a fast way to get a signal and why we include web socket in viwi 05:14:00 … we wanted the HTTP part as well 05:14:20 Paul: do you have an API layer above all this and use the protocol that makes sense? 05:15:01 Fulup: it comes down to the data processing that should influence the delivery 05:15:52 PatrickL: one API side (socket) is there to get new information quickly and have the more structure of REST 05:16:41 … developers should be more familiar with the REST approach 05:17:03 q+ 05:17:33 … in order to get the continuous data stream you need something like sockets in HTTP1.1, in HTTP2 there may be more options 05:18:05 PatrickB has joined #auto 05:18:13 Hi 05:18:23 Fulup: we have a separation between the rendering of client app (HTML5 or QT) 05:18:54 I can not dial in.. My meeting number is not accepted 05:19:14 … UI to business logic we use REST or web sockets as something that developers understand 05:19:27 Anyway have to wait for the police because a truck just pushed me off the road :( 05:19:59 Can not Weber during drive :) 05:20:06 Webex 05:21:30 Paul: a higher level JS client API, which some want, abstracts out the transport layer. we focused on the service layer first 05:22:17 … one reason against two protocols is increasing attack surface but there are counter arguments to that 05:23:03 PatrickL: what direction would we take in trying to examine REST being more vulnerable? 05:23:19 q? 05:25:39 … we saw there were reasons for structuring viwi in a REST way 05:26:29 Kaz: WoT WG is working on an abstraction layer and protocol agnostic module 05:26:41 … that might be interesting here 05:27:50 … they are including REST and web socket bindings 05:27:57 Present+ PatrickB 05:28:33 rrsagent, draft minutes 05:28:33 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/02/14-auto-minutes.html kaz 05:29:34 Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-autowebplatform/2017Feb/0003.html 05:30:16 Paul: at the end of the day, the information model matters as much if not more than the transport 05:30:45 Kaz: WoT is interested in integration of REST and web socket 05:30:59 Paul: I looked at Iotivity and others and they are doing both 05:31:22 Kaz: WoT is working with Iotivity and OCF models in their plugfest 05:32:11 s/Iotivity and OCF/OCF's work including IoTivity and oneM2M's work/ 05:32:20 s/models// 05:33:41 Paul: information models for different domains besides just vehicle signals are a big part of this 05:34:29 PatrickL: we are thinking of additional domains besides what we have initially in viwi 05:36:21 q+ 05:37:25 For us the separation of concerns by using the REST approach brought a lot of value in definition, implementation,scalability and testing on either end, client and server 05:37:27 Paul: we listed these various domains in the past, areas we want to get into besides signals 05:37:36 Ted@@@LBS... 05:38:28 I am sitting in the car while the police takes pictures and collects other pieces of evidence ;) 05:38:42 PatrickL: we should focus on why a consistent programming paradigm is beneficial 05:39:14 Yes please 05:39:28 Paul: having to shift programming models can throw developer teams 05:40:22 Fulup: agree with thinking of the developer but also need to think about the implementer, having same paradigm for different domains is beneficial for debugging, service archicture etc 05:40:39 … I do not see being able to handle the whole wish list of domains in the same model though 05:41:31 Kaz: WoT has a thing definition that abstracts out domain 05:41:37 Paul: everything becomes a thing 05:42:08 s/has a thing definition/is working on Thing Description/ 05:42:37 Urata: I have a question. My understanding of the goal of this discussion is to integrate our web socket spec with viwi 05:42:51 … is there a schedule for reaching a conclusion? 05:43:22 Paul: I am looking for points of convergence but agree we need to think of a timeline 05:44:01 … we are expecting possibly some more people who are more into the JS client level and not even thinking of a common service 05:44:21 … architecturally where do these pieces fit, from there we can figure out what to put in a new specification 05:44:37 … I am not hearing anything at odds 05:46:11 … the VISS goes to CR in April and in May we should be talking about the next focus for the WG 05:46:44 … see if we can get a common architecture for multiple domains 05:47:18 Fulup: AGL has a big meeting in the Summer where I would like to present a strategy 05:47:33 q+ 05:47:59 … if there is something drafted by October it can make it into this year's release 05:49:25 Ted: through these calls we should have the start of plan before the F2F in May 05:49:59 When where is May F2F ? 05:50:08 Paul: we should have an architectural diagram that explains the various pieces (like what Kevin did before) 05:50:43 fulup-iotbzh at Genivi AMM in Birmingham. 2 days but specifically which is not decided yet 05:51:39 -> https://www.eiseverywhere.com/ehome/225965 GENIVI AMM in May 05:51:58 Paul: information model, supporting multiple domains is what we want 05:52:09 I will attend Birmaingham meeting, also not a problem for me. 05:52:48 … architecturally you have service layer and also client JS layer 05:53:58 … the BG will submit a report to the WG 05:54:40 Wonsuk: I fully agree. In my point of view is that we need to make a result based on our concensus so far 05:54:58 … it is worth taking a step back and looking at the other domains 05:55:16 … Media or LBS should be next 05:56:20 … concerning protocol, that is a priority. there are benefits for both sockets and REST 05:56:23 s/concensus/consensus/ 05:57:18 q? 05:57:23 Paul: I agree we need to pick next targets, align information model with protocol, see if it works and adding REST if appropriate 05:58:24 Kaz: agree as well with sending this proposal to the WG 05:59:17 s/the WG/the WG given this proposal would impact the WG deliverable spec/ 06:00:07 s/spec/spec. also possibly we could include both the original WeSocket approach and VIWI approach as possible two profiles within the spec/ 06:00:59 Paul: what are the other domains that viwi currently handles? 06:01:22 PatrickB: CDN, media library, media services, vehicle signals 06:01:30 -> https://www.w3.org/Submission/2016/01/ VIWI proposals 06:02:14 … thinking forward notifications would be very useful for autonomous driving 06:02:15 s/proposals/proposal including 5 domains/ 06:02:26 … we have those already defined they're just not public 06:04:14 Ted: based on Wonsuk's comment earlier about BG TF let's look at media next as a domain 06:04:15 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/02/14-auto-minutes.html ted 06:06:57 Ted: there is an advantage to having the same programming paradigm across these various domains from the developer perspective. as an example an app might want to poll vehicle data on fuel level, inform LBS of the need for a detour and the media system will need to pause to inform the driver 06:07:00 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/02/14-auto-minutes.html ted 06:07:10 leaving. As of this point the attendees have been Adam, Kaz, PatrickL, Ted, Paul, Fulup, Rudi, Kevin, Hira, PatrickB, Mike, Powell, Urata, Wonsuk 06:07:10 Zakim has left #auto 06:07:11 I see no action items 16:29:37 RRSAgent has joined #auto 16:29:37 logging to http://www.w3.org/2017/02/14-auto-irc 16:29:54 trackbot, start meeting 16:29:57 RRSAgent, make logs public 16:30:00 Zakim, this will be 16:30:00 Meeting: Automotive Working Group Teleconference 16:30:00 Date: 14 February 2017 16:30:00 I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot 16:30:13 PatrickLue has joined #auto 16:30:26 s/Working/Business/ 16:32:40 scribenick: ted 16:33:01 AdamC has joined #auto 16:33:46 Present+ Adam, Ted, PatrickL, Kaz, QingAn, Wonsuk, Paul 16:33:59 Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-autowebplatform/2017Feb/0005.html 16:34:14 wonsuk has joined #auto 16:34:18 paul has joined #auto 16:35:00 Present+ Ryan 16:37:34 present+ Rudi 16:38:09 rstreif has joined #auto 16:38:51 Discussion of myriad of teleconferences 16:39:32 Ted will create an ical with the various calls, people should feel comfortable to only attend which are pertinent to them and not interfere with sleep. Minutes will be taken and shared 16:39:54 agenda+ LBS update 16:40:02 agenda+ Media tuner update 16:40:26 agenda+ Discussion for VIWI proposal 16:40:35 agenda+ Payments within vehicle 16:40:50 Wonsuk: we will skip the LBS update given holidays in China 16:40:53 zakim, next agendum 16:40:53 agendum 1. "LBS update" taken up [from ted] 16:40:54 zakim, close this agendum 16:40:54 agendum 1 closed 16:40:54 I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 16:40:54 2. Media tuner update [from ted] 16:40:56 zakim, next agendum 16:40:56 agendum 2. "Media tuner update" taken up [from ted] 16:41:31 Wonsuk: I am hoping Ryan can give us an update on the status of his activity 16:42:04 Ryan: I plan on being on for the time being but expect iHeart might be leaving the activity 16:42:30 … even without our participation, I would be welcome to provide any feedback 16:42:57 … I can take a look at ViWi for the next month to see how that might work for auto 16:43:05 q+ 16:43:15 … it is very similar in the direction we have been discussing with the TV Controller API 16:43:47 Kaz: are you planning to participate in the Auto BG and TV Controller API as a public commenter or as an Invited Expert 16:44:06 … you can send feedback and comments to the public lists 16:44:51 s/TV Controller API/TV Control WG/ 16:45:25 s/public lists/public lists. let's talk about the detail later./ 16:47:25 Wonsuk: this might be more pertinent to discuss in the ViWi call next week 16:48:26 Kaz: Ryan's participation in the TV Control group has been beneficial there as well 16:49:57 -> https://www.w3.org/Submission/2016/SUBM-viwi-service-media-20161213/ viwi.service.media 16:50:42 Ted: I am interested in hearing more from Ryan if he can elaborate on the comparison between ViWi and TV Control WG is considering 16:51:12 … the participation concerns in that group makes ViWi more pertinent 16:51:58 [Ryan is on WebEx but seems to have dropped audio] 16:52:45 Wonsuk: PatrickL perhaps you can elaborate on the higher level Media services in ViWi 16:53:17 PatrickL: it can provide play lists from cd, usb, other libraries, renderers etc 16:53:43 … that is what it is currently able to do. it is quite easy to extend 16:54:11 Wonsuk: it already has various applications like Spotify and such, correct? 16:54:49 present+ Kevin 16:54:50 PatrickL: there is no Spotify viwi api available right now publicly, internally we have a mapping available 16:56:12 Wonsuk: I am hoping this architecture is something that can be used by app developers to interact with eg Spotify 16:56:19 q+ to mention that TV Control WG's work is defining high-level JS API: https://www.w3.org/TR/tvcontrol-api/ 16:57:39 PatrickL: the developer can go directly to spotify api. it is possible for app developers (spotify etc) can follow our general model and make their content available that way similar to Android Auto approach 16:57:42 kaz, you wanted to mention that TV Control WG's work is defining high-level JS API: https://www.w3.org/TR/tvcontrol-api/ 16:58:21 Kaz: TV control WG is working on a higher level JS API and ViWi could be on layer underneath 17:01:00 Ted: I think that is enough for now, good to hear about layered approach and we will discuss additional domains including media 17:01:01 zakim, next agendum 17:01:01 agendum 3. "Discussion for VIWI proposal" taken up [from ted] 17:01:15 Wonsuk: I see Kevin added some text to the wiki 17:01:20 Kevin: contributing to the debate 17:01:45 https://www.w3.org/community/autowebplatform/wiki/ViWi 17:02:01 Kevin: there are benefits listed for REST, there are others for web sockets 17:03:22 -> https://www.w3.org/community/autowebplatform/wiki/ViWi#Why_to_REST.3F Why to REST? 17:03:26 -> https://www.w3.org/community/autowebplatform/wiki/ViWi#Pros_and_Cons Pros and Cons 17:05:23 Ted: there have been a number of good conversations and encourage people to continue contributing to the wiki 17:05:38 -> https://www.w3.org/2017/02/14-auto-minutes.html Convergence call minutes 17:08:21 Wonsuk: any more on ViWi discussion? 17:08:59 Ted: another point was Urata-san wisely encouraged us to come up with a timetable for next gen and other WG deliverables with the VISS spec going to CR in April 17:09:47 Wonsuk: Patrick, what do you see as more important domains after vehicle signals? 17:09:50 -> https://www.w3.org/Submission/2016/01/ VIWI submission including 6 documents 17:10:14 PatrickL: media certainly, navigation, car data are the three biggest 17:10:17 q+ 17:10:41 … we were not allowed to share too much on navigation at this point 17:11:11 … once we get really started with the other domains it would be a good starting point 17:12:09 Ted: can you elaborate on navigation plans? 17:12:40 PatrickL: it is possible to get a version that would be pertinent for W3C with possibly some things ommitted 17:13:06 … there are clear advantages to have navigation information available to multiple applications 17:13:18 … there will be differences, a subset of what we are using internally 17:13:41 … after that it can evolve independently in W3C and we will be adapting ourselves 17:13:48 agenda? 17:14:09 q+ 17:14:36 … there is clear need for navigation information in this space 17:15:20 Kaz: does this include map and geolocation information? 17:15:46 PatrickL: you get location objects, current GPS coordinates and other dead reckoning of the car 17:16:16 … this is something that should be available to every app developer within vehicle space 17:16:43 … there are some early considerations for bringing this to W3C 17:17:06 Kaz: I have been working with Geolocation WG at W3C but they are not well suited for these purposes 17:17:19 @@link_to_TPAC_Sapporo_min 17:18:25 PatrickL: yes we need to handle non-JS applications as well, running on a phone in the car for instance 17:18:50 Ted: the kid in the back seat asking "are we there yet" (incessently) use case... 17:19:11 Wonsuk: are you looking at notifications as well? 17:19:16 PatrickL: yes 17:19:30 s|@@link_to_TPAC_Sapporo_min|-> https://www.w3.org/2015/10/26-27-auto-minutes.html TPAC Sapporo minutes| 17:20:11 [W3C Geolocation and Automotive met in Sapporo and resolved their needs are too different] 17:21:01 zakim, next agendum 17:21:01 agendum 4. "Payments within vehicle" taken up [from ted] 17:21:17 -> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-autowebplatform/2017Feb/0001.html update on Automotive Web Payments 17:21:23 Ted@@_payments 17:22:51 -> https://www.w3.org/2017/Talks/tg-autopay/ slides on proposal 17:23:38 -> https://www.w3.org/2015/10/26-wpay-minutes.html#item01 joint discussion with the Payments IG in Sapporo 17:26:20 -> https://github.com/w3c/webpayments/wiki/FTF-March2017 Payments f2f in Chicago in March 17:28:29 Wonsuk: I think it is a very interesting item. Carsharing services are being more widely used in Korea 17:29:02 … people can schedule taking a car and using a smartphone application can unlock the reserved car 17:29:12 … cost is based on usage 17:29:55 … we need to describe these type of use cases clearly 17:30:24 … and from there what to standardize 17:31:33 Ted: agree, we are seeing car sharing models emerge in urban centers elsewhere as well 17:31:45 … I will continue to keep the BG appraised 17:32:15 Wonsuk: next BG meeting 17:32:39 Kaz: Second Tuesday of the month so March 14th 17:37:45 s/Ted@@_payments/Ted: also at Sapporo TPAC we met with Web Payments IG where Kevin made a presentation on auto use cases. That group is vibrant and acts as an incubator of future work much like our BG with spec work taking place in a WG. They are starting to look at specific needs in addition to general payments. I made sure we circled back as they were doing so and our proposed coordination work is being well received. I will attend 17:37:46 their F2F meeting on 22 March and hope we can get going in April. I touched on Distraction, connectivity and shared vehicle concerns./ 17:37:52 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/02/14-auto-minutes.html ted 17:42:02 leaving. As of this point the attendees have been Adam, Ted, PatrickL, Kaz, QingAn, Wonsuk, Paul, Ryan, Rudi, Kevin 17:42:02 Zakim has left #auto 17:42:04 I see no action items