16:00:45 RRSAgent has joined #mobile-a11y 16:00:45 logging to http://www.w3.org/2017/02/02-mobile-a11y-irc 16:00:47 RRSAgent, make logs public 16:00:48 Zakim has joined #mobile-a11y 16:00:49 Zakim, this will be WAI_MATF 16:00:49 ok, trackbot 16:00:50 Meeting: Mobile Accessibility Task Force Teleconference 16:00:51 Date: 02 February 2017 16:02:04 chair: Kathleen_Wahlbin 16:02:55 present+ patrick_h_lauke 16:03:15 agenda+ Technique development for existing SCs starting on 2.3 16:03:16 agenda+ Next steps 16:04:06 http://w3c.github.io/Mobile-A11y-Extension/#wcag-guideline-2.3-seizures-do-not-design-content-in-a-way-that-is-known-to-cause-seizures.x 16:04:45 regrets henny 16:04:49 regrets chris 16:04:53 regrets David 16:04:59 present+ Kathy 16:05:50 present+Kim 16:06:18 TOPIC: 2.3 16:06:31 Kathy: I do think there's anything special we need to do under 2.3 for mobile 16:06:38 Patrick: agreed – no extra needs 16:06:48 TOPIC: 2.4 16:07:44 Kathy: we don't need to talk about getting into the new mobile stuff here. 24.1 bypass blocks – anything 16:07:56 Jatin has joined #mobile-a11y 16:08:21 Present + Jatin 16:08:52 Patrick: nothing beyond desktop – navigate by landmarks. Skip links – we've hit problem with bootstrap where chrome gets confused about what you want to do. I filed a bug with Apple – Safari has some bizarre behavior with skip links. Technically there are some problems but in principle skip links from desktop should work on mobile as well 16:08:57 Kathy: I agree 16:09:24 Kathy: we had one under multiple ways – include shortcuts to jump. I'm surprised that's not in there already as a technique because it's not just mobile 16:09:41 Patrick: I'm not sure it needs to be called out – it would apply to users on the desktop 16:09:56 Kathy: I think we need to remove M 12 16:10:20 Kathy: 2.4.6 headings and labels – mobile relying on labels 16:12:15 http://w3c.github.io/Mobile-A11y-Extension/#wcag-guideline-2.3-seizures-do-not-design-content-in-a-way-that-is-known-to-cause-seizures.x 16:13:19 Patrick: even though there's nothing here at the moment – Kathy's point about placeholder – that that shouldn't be used – I would be for writing a technique or flagging it in a note – something along those lines 16:13:54 Patrick: I know some work is being done or at least discussions around this topic in the HTML working group. I think it includes some form of note the placeholder should be replied upon as the only label being used 16:14:40 Patrick: I'm happy to take that one to explore possibility of including something in WCAG about the use of placeholder is the only way of labeling– applies not just to mobile what to desktop as well. 16:15:36 ACTION: Patrick to explore possibility of including technique/note about the use of placeholder as the only way of labeling 2.4.6 16:15:37 Created ACTION-62 - Explore possibility of including technique/note about the use of placeholder as the only way of labeling 2.4.6 [on Patrick Lauke - due 2017-02-09]. 16:17:12 Patrick: 2.4.7. Touch focus isn't as important as keyboard but provides positive reinforcement. There are techniques to make sure that, say links that are clicked do show an actual outline or some kind of focus state as they are being activated. In principle it would be good to have that. I can provide some material for it 16:17:38 https://gauntface.com/blog/2013/12/09/focusing-on-the-web-today 16:21:28 Patrick: some kind of note just because just because it's a touch device, doesn't mean focus is not important. Visible focus styling is also important ontouch devices or devices that don't use a traditional keyboard – that could go into understanding – focus visible 16:22:56 ACTION: Patrick to at least contribute to M001 under 2.4.7 16:22:56 Created ACTION-63 - At least contribute to m001 under 2.4.7 [on Patrick Lauke - due 2017-02-09]. 16:23:56 Patrick: 2.4.8 not sure how this is different than what you would do on a desktop 16:26:37 Patrick: nothing specific is coming to mind – just another way of doing navigation for small screen but it doesn't sound like it's specifically a technique that we want to show as a way of providing this 16:28:20 Patrick: M015 – not thinking of a technique specific to mobile 16:29:36 Patrick: 2.4.9 – nothing 16:32:11 TOPIC: 3.1 16:32:12 Patrick: 3.1.1- 3.1.6 can't think of anything that's not already covered 16:32:28 Patrick: nothing mobile specific that we need to add 16:33:02 TOPIC: 3.2 16:33:55 Patrick: 3.2.1 is less of a problem on touch, or applies the same way on touch – just because it's a touch device would still want to avoid triggering things on focus. May want to add a note, but maybe not, don't want to scatter notes in understanding 16:36:05 Kim: issue with focus is if the input isn't touch, focus may act differently because touch automatically focuses (similar to the mouse on the PC). This is especially apparent with speech input. The question is whether it's different in mobile/touch, or there something specific for mobile/touch – an extra warning. But I agree that we don't want to scatter notes all over the place 16:37:05 Jatin: do we need ontouch 16:37:43 Patrick: just looking at what's currently here – what we can put in existing SC's 16:41:28 Patrick: 3.2.3 doesn't talk about hamburger menu type expand/collapse but beyond that the principal is already there so potentially it could be written as another technique, but I wouldn't push for it 16:42:07 https://www.w3.org/TR/2016/NOTE-WCAG20-TECHS-20161007/G61 16:43:19 Patrick: there's no code, just in prose. The only sufficient technique for current 3.2.3. We essentially want to say roughly the same thing just hamburger menu make sure things are in the same order – I don't think it needs a new technique just to say that this also applies when it's collapsed in a single icon like a hamburger menu 16:44:04 Patrick: so I'd say leave the mobile navigation bar one aside and lost somebody has a burning desire to write something 16:46:33 Patrick: conceptually it's the same as desktop– of what were trying to say here is inside what comes up when you trigger it, the order is the same that you should already be thinking about that in desktop so would probably feel weird if we single it out as an example – something like a mobile smallscreen collapsed navigation. so I would be in favor of dropping this technique 16:47:58 Jatin: agree, recommend dropping navigation bar example 16:48:21 Patrick: orientation order – may not always be the case that for a small screen device for instance you may choose one way of navigating the site which is very different from what you would do on a larger screen desktop 16:50:03 Patrick: so I'm not sure system navigation is a success criteria in the moment applies. I think the important thing is as you stay within your screen size it stays consistent, but between those as well probably goes beyond what the SC itself is requiring. Part of that technique would be covered in the change of orientation, how things change when you go from portrait to landscape. I don't... 16:50:05 ...think the current spirit of 3.2.3 covers across devices as well 16:50:34 i.e. it needs to be consistent WITHIN one particular size, but not consistent even when switching between different sizes 16:51:15 Kim: so it goes too far for the FC, or it's not necessary in general 16:51:26 Patrick: not necessary at this point 16:53:54 Patrick: the way I read it it says they should remain consistent and I don't think that's the case that 3.2.3 applies because what you go past a certain breakpoint it would be a different case – the consistency part can't go across versions. That's just a natural thing that won't happen. So proposing that technique implies something that I don't think it does 16:56:15 TOPIC:3.3 16:56:26 agree that 3.3.1 nothing extra in mobile 16:57:00 Patrick: 3.3.2, agree with M005, not sure about M021 16:57:11 Patrick: M 16:58:37 Patrick: M005 would also be good to discuss what kind of instructions we have in mind – text, how to word it or orderly dialogue – verbiage point of view or here's how you can provide, tap, bring up descriptions. Seems to be the latter. 16:59:58 patrick_h_lauke has left #mobile-a11y 17:02:46 rrsagent, make minutes 17:02:46 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/02/02-mobile-a11y-minutes.html Kim 17:04:04 Regrets+ Henny, Chris, Jonathan, David 17:04:24 rrsagent, make minutes 17:04:24 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/02/02-mobile-a11y-minutes.html Kim 17:09:59 Kim: discussions for next time: covering across devices iimplication not fitting into 3.2.3 and making M005 more clear 17:10:37 rrsagent, make minutes 17:10:37 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/02/02-mobile-a11y-minutes.html Kim 17:14:21 rrsagent, bye 17:14:21 I see 2 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2017/02/02-mobile-a11y-actions.rdf : 17:14:21 ACTION: Patrick to explore possibility of including technique/note about the use of placeholder as the only way of labeling 2.4.6 [1] 17:14:21 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2017/02/02-mobile-a11y-irc#T16-15-36 17:14:21 ACTION: Patrick to at least contribute to M001 under 2.4.7 [2] 17:14:21 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2017/02/02-mobile-a11y-irc#T16-22-56 17:14:28 zakim, bye 17:14:28 leaving. As of this point the attendees have been patrick_h_lauke, Kathy, Kim 17:14:28 Zakim has left #mobile-a11y