16:02:50 RRSAgent has joined #tt 16:02:50 logging to http://www.w3.org/2017/01/26-tt-irc 16:02:52 RRSAgent, make logs public 16:02:52 Zakim has joined #tt 16:02:54 Zakim, this will be TTML 16:02:54 ok, trackbot 16:02:55 Meeting: Timed Text Working Group Teleconference 16:02:55 Date: 26 January 2017 16:03:10 Present: Dae, Nigel 16:03:12 Chair: Nigel 16:03:17 scribe: nigel 16:05:33 tmichel has joined #tt 16:05:39 present+ 16:05:40 Present+ Andreas, Mike, Pierre, Thierry 16:06:33 Topic: This Meeting 16:07:36 nigel: Any particular points to discuss, or other business not on the agenda? 16:07:42 group: No AOB. 16:08:35 nigel: Thanks all for attending at the new time - we will stick with this unless we know in 16:08:41 atai has joined #tt 16:08:51 .. advance that we need extra time, in which case we will begin earlier. Is that going to work for everyone? 16:08:59 group: no objections! 16:09:03 Andreas: That works for me. 16:09:15 Topic: IMSC 16:10:12 nigel: On IMSC 1.1, my summary is that we have established that we are able to publish a 16:10:53 .. FPWD of IMSC 1.1 using the same short code as the existing IMSC spec, ttml-imsc1. 16:11:07 .. We have it as a proposal to publish this. 16:11:22 Pierre: We have two pull requests that I'd like to accept today, and then I can generate a 16:11:28 .. FPWD that can be used for publication. 16:12:10 Thierry: Then I will need to talk to the webmaster for publication on Tuesday at the earliest. 16:12:15 I confirm 16:12:42 Nigel: One small matter of admin for the record: http://www.w3.org/TR/ttml-imsc1/ has 16:13:01 .. been updated in place today, to include a new link to the latest editor's draft. 16:13:30 .. That was because the old link pointed to something in the github repo that we moved in 16:13:37 .. preparation for IMSC 2. 16:14:27 .. Philippe tells me that in April there will be a new plan to allow for a neutral ED link, which 16:14:33 .. can be directed behind the scenes to the right place. 16:14:55 Thierry: Only the Rec has been updated - the Web master is not permitted to update any other 16:15:07 .. version. We still have broken links in the old CR and PR. There is a GitHub hack that we 16:15:09 .. can do. 16:15:22 Pierre: I don't think we really need to do. The Rec is the in-force specification that we need 16:15:27 .. to worry about. 16:15:35 Thierry: Okay then let's not put energy into that. 16:16:07 Pierre: Also worth noting, GitHub's gh-pages is now able to publish from any named branch 16:16:55 .. so I set it to publish the ED from the master branch. That closed issue #187 https://github.com/w3c/imsc/issues/187 16:17:01 Nigel: Great, thanks for that! 16:17:40 rpuri has joined #tt 16:17:51 .. That means we are serving everything on the master branch but I don't think that is a problem. 16:18:15 Nigel: Let's look at the pull requests then. 16:18:42 -> https://github.com/w3c/imsc/pull/205 Stub to support the current ED link found in the IMSC1 REC 16:18:49 .. Now we have updated the Rec we don't need this. 16:19:29 Pierre: I just closed that pull request and the associated issue #204. 16:19:42 -> https://github.com/w3c/imsc/pull/200 Add support for fillLineGap and optional features 16:19:53 Pierre: I think everyone was okay with the text. I made a modification to change the example 16:19:57 .. to the nice one that Andreas provided. 16:21:49 Nigel: I just want to check if we really consider it necessary to have an example with 16:21:54 .. multiple font sizes on a single line? 16:22:08 Pierre: It is non obvious how it should work, so since the feature works in that case we really 16:22:17 .. ought to show what the intended effect is, or remove that possibility. 16:22:41 Andreas: I agree. With the text as it is now we should include this level of complexity in the example. 16:22:50 .. I also would be happy to further constrain it. 16:23:18 Nigel: I'm happy with the feature, I'm just not sure if the example and/or the test case needs 16:23:22 .. this level of complexity. 16:23:27 Pierre: We should because it is allowed. 16:23:39 Andreas: I agree - there are other examples that are more simple than they could be, and that 16:23:50 .. can cause interoperability problems later. 16:26:21 Nigel: I think it would be easier to implement as is than to specify the constraint that would make it easier to implement! 16:27:27 .. I would prefer to leave the text as it is now. 16:27:31 Andreas: This is an interesting discussion, which we should continue after publication - 16:28:04 .. and can do into WD. 16:28:17 Pierre: Something Nigel said last time is we can go back to the requesters for the feature 16:28:28 .. based on the FPWD and check that they are happy with the level of implementation complexity. 16:28:31 Andreas: Makes sense to me. 16:28:46 Pierre: That's an argument for exposing that complexity in the FPWD. 16:28:48 Nigel: That's fair. 16:29:18 Pierre: Long term, we really need to get the CSS folks involved in this. 16:29:40 .. Again, with a FPWD it will be easier to go back to the CSS WG and ask what to do about this. 16:29:57 .. Either it is essential for the web and should be in CSS eventually, or its not. 16:31:48 Pierre: I propose that we merge this PR. 16:32:01 Nigel: Any other comments on this before we hit the big green button? 16:32:06 group: No. 16:32:11 Nigel: Okay Pierre, go for it! 16:33:30 Pierre: Do you want to add a note? 16:33:41 Nigel: Ok, I've done it. 16:34:03 .. That's also closed https://github.com/w3c/imsc/issues/195 16:34:16 .. Next pull request: 16:34:24 -> https://github.com/w3c/imsc/pull/202 Clarify relationship with current REC 16:36:32 Pierre: review the last commit at https://github.com/w3c/imsc/pull/202/commits/d348dc063baf9395df7bc1947a5dd886926c0c87 16:37:24 Nigel: Ok, any comments on this, requests for changes etc? 16:37:35 group: No comments. 16:38:26 Nigel: Okay, I'll comment on it and merge... Done! 16:38:39 .. That's also closed https://github.com/w3c/imsc/issues/201 16:39:03 Pierre: There are no issues open. 16:39:12 Nigel: All 12 open issues are labelled IMSC2 milestone. 16:40:00 .. Just checking the latest ED... http://w3c.github.io/imsc/imsc1/spec/ttml-ww-profiles.html#itts-fillLineGap 16:40:05 .. The image is not being served. 16:41:23 .. The case of the PNG extension differs in the repo vs the link. 16:41:28 Pierre: I'll rename the file. 16:43:22 Nigel: OK that's fixed now. 16:43:50 .. We have a proposal to publish a FPWD based on this ED. 16:44:03 Pierre: I'll create a branch with the SOTD updated to suit and point the group and Thierry to it. 16:44:17 OK. 16:45:40 RESOLUTION: Publish a FPWD of IMSC 1.0.1 based on the current ED. 16:46:07 Nigel: Great, thanks everyone. 16:46:23 .. Has there been anything on the CLDR Unicode liaison? 16:46:26 Pierre: No. 16:46:30 Present+ Rohit 16:47:52 Topic: TTML 16:48:02 Nigel: I want to raise Security and Privacy. 16:48:07 -> https://github.com/w3c/ttml2/issues/224 16:50:04 Nigel: You might also find interesting a parallel piece of work, for reference: 16:50:10 -> https://github.com/w3c/webvtt/issues/323 16:50:42 Nigel: I would like to encourage everyone to think about any security or privacy sections 16:50:51 s/sections/considerations 16:51:04 Nigel: associated with TTML2 that we should declare but that we have not already captured 16:51:12 .. in the ttml2 issue 224 notes. 16:52:25 Pierre: I think that padding on span in TTML2 as currently specified does not do what we 16:53:15 .. want it to do, for ebutts:linePadding. Padding on span does not accomplish that. 16:54:19 Pierre: Note that box-decoration-break: clone; does not work with nested spans and 16:54:26 .. multiple colors. 16:55:11 Nigel: Oh yes, because if you have two adjacent spans with different background colors then 16:55:40 .. you want the padding if they happen to have a line break between them but not otherwise. 16:56:18 Pierre: I see no value to adding padding on spans; if linePadding needs to be supported then 16:56:24 .. we need to file an issue. 16:56:56 Andreas: The question is if we should go beyond what we have in EBU-TT-D. It is a similar 16:57:07 .. problem with line gap - we define the presentation semantics without a clear view of 16:57:26 .. how to get there. If there is no structural correspondence in CSS to solve this then we 16:57:39 .. may just want to define the presentation semantics, or possibly it is too complex to fully 16:57:42 .. implement it. 16:58:31 Pierre: I would put this in the "work with CSSWG" bucket. I'm not sure where we will end up 16:58:44 .. but being clear in the next working draft that this is a feature that the group intends to 16:59:01 .. make part of TTML2 and is essential and working with CSS WG, otherwise it will be poorly 16:59:15 .. supported. My suspicion is most people won't do it correctly. 16:59:35 .. I'm not questioning the usefulness of line padding, but just want to point out that there's 16:59:47 .. a missing feature in TTML2, which will make it hard for IMSC2 to be a subset of TTML2. 16:59:55 Nigel: Will you raise an issue? 17:00:38 Pierre: Ok I will. 17:01:49 .. Next subtle point is multiRowAlign, which if implemented in CSS in the same way as 17:02:05 .. hinted at in TTML2 does not actually work, because browsers handle lines with explicit 17:02:28 .. br breaks differently from those split by word wrapping. This is subtle! I think we again 17:02:46 .. need to work with CSS WG to show how important this is and how it can be fixed. 17:05:36 Pierre: In the meantime I will file an issue. 17:05:48 Dae: If these are important issues we should try to have a joint meeting with them. 17:07:27 Pierre: We may be able to request time in their April meeting in Tokyo. 17:08:11 Nigel: The first step is for me as Chair to reach out and discover if we can get some agenda 17:08:17 .. time with them to discuss these issues. 17:09:03 Nigel: So I'll do that. We're out of time for today, so thanks all! [adjourns meeting] 17:09:09 rrsagent, make minutes 17:09:09 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/01/26-tt-minutes.html nigel 17:14:00 ScribeOptions: -final -noEmbedDiagnostics 17:14:02 rrsagent, make minutes 17:14:02 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/01/26-tt-minutes.html nigel 18:00:19 atai has left #tt 19:07:08 Zakim has left #tt