IRC log of apa on 2017-01-25

Timestamps are in UTC.

16:43:46 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #apa
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logging to
16:43:48 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs world
16:43:48 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #apa
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Zakim, this will be
16:43:50 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot
16:43:51 [trackbot]
Meeting: Accessible Platform Architectures Working Group Teleconference
16:43:51 [trackbot]
Date: 25 January 2017
16:46:13 [janina_]
16:46:19 [janina_]
agenda+ preview agenda with items from two minutes
16:46:19 [janina_]
agenda+ Media Accessibility in W3C Specs [See MAUR Redux below]
16:46:19 [janina_]
agenda+ Actions Checkin (Specs)
16:46:19 [janina_]
agenda+ new on TR
16:46:20 [janina_]
agenda+ APA's Accessibility Checklist [See Below]
16:46:22 [janina_]
agenda+ Input Events
16:46:25 [janina_]
agenda+ Updating DOM--Any RFEs?
16:46:28 [janina_]
agenda+ Other Business
16:46:30 [janina_]
agenda+ next and future meetings
16:46:33 [janina_]
agenda+ be done
16:48:56 [MichielBijl]
16:55:35 [Ralph]
Ralph has joined #apa
16:56:58 [janina_]
/me michaelc: EMERGENCY: Can't get in on Webex for APA with 647 857 439
16:57:19 [janina_]
Argh. Webex is misbehaving. The 9 digit code isn't working for me
16:59:01 [janina_]
No go here either via SIP (my usual) or direct dial PSTN
16:59:12 [janina_]
Will try again
17:00:26 [Ralph]
17:01:57 [Gottfried]
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17:02:32 [tink]
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17:02:49 [tink]
present+ Léonie
17:02:56 [janina_]
present+ Janina
17:02:59 [janina_]
Chair: Janina
17:03:03 [Gottfried]
present+ me
17:03:11 [Gottfried]
17:03:19 [janina_]
zakim, who's here?
17:03:19 [Zakim]
Present: MichielBijl, Ralph, Léonie, Janina, Gottfried
17:03:20 [Zakim]
On IRC I see tink, Gottfried, Ralph, Zakim, RRSAgent, joanie, ShaneM, janina_, MichaelC, Rossen, MichielBijl, slightlyoff, trackbot, yatil
17:04:20 [MichielBijl]
scribe: MichielBijl
17:04:26 [MichielBijl]
17:05:26 [janina_]
zakim, next item
17:05:26 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "preview agenda with items from two minutes" taken up [from janina_]
17:05:56 [MichielBijl]
JS: Hope to have Judy here today
17:05:57 [joanie]
present+ Joanmarie_Diggs
17:06:13 [MichielBijl]
are we doing enough?
17:06:17 [MichielBijl]
are there missing pieces?
17:06:21 [JF]
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17:06:59 [MichielBijl]
Welcome Ralph!
17:07:22 [MichielBijl]
Any news or other relevant tidbits?
17:07:47 [MichaelC]
17:07:47 [MichielBijl]
LW: We published a new update to HTML 5.2
17:07:48 [ShaneM]
present+ ShaneM
17:08:02 [MichaelC]
present+ Judy
17:08:04 [Judy]
Judy has joined #apa
17:08:10 [MichielBijl]
Working draft update, no big milestone, nothing that impacts accessibility
17:08:11 [JF]
Present+ JF
17:08:23 [MichielBijl]
zakim, next item
17:08:23 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "Media Accessibility in W3C Specs" taken up [from See MAUR Redux below]
17:08:56 [MichielBijl]
JS: we did a lot of work to make sure HTML 5 supports everything we can reasonably expect
17:09:21 [MichielBijl]
We went through and came up with all kind use cases
17:09:29 [MichielBijl]
Came up with a notes document
17:09:35 [janina_]
17:09:53 [MichielBijl]
That is the basis by which we talked to HTML about how to support it
17:10:10 [MichielBijl]
It should not be a surprise that some of them text
17:10:16 [MichielBijl]
Some of them are binary
17:10:27 [MichielBijl]
Like video or audio files
17:10:35 [MichielBijl]
And some of this is fixed up in use cases
17:10:44 [MichielBijl]
I know we’re listed in a charter
17:10:51 [MichielBijl]
Has just been renewed for another year
17:11:02 [MichielBijl]
Some of the folks there are familiar with what we’re about
17:11:11 [MichielBijl]
In some cases I’m seeing new names
17:11:20 [MichielBijl]
Not sure if they’re aware of what we’re about
17:11:36 [MichielBijl]
In some cases it’s hard to find out what an API is about
17:12:10 [MichielBijl]
There’re enormous opportunities to get this right
17:12:13 [MichielBijl]
Users at home
17:12:17 [MichielBijl]
Educational videos
17:12:26 [MichielBijl]
In a school setting for example
17:12:34 [MichielBijl]
Or even in a movie theatre
17:12:46 [MichielBijl]
HTML should be an inopperable device
17:12:56 [MichielBijl]
s/inopperable/inoperable /
17:13:19 [JF]
17:13:46 [MichielBijl]
Make it possible for hearing impaired users to use their smart device to listen to the main track or audio described track
17:14:09 [MichielBijl]
Maybe we have to update the MAUR
17:14:22 [MichielBijl]
We did for visual impaired users
17:14:29 [MichielBijl]
Not sure we did for hearing impaired users
17:14:41 [MichielBijl]
Might have documented some issues, but not the solutions
17:14:46 [JF]
Q+ to ask if it is the role of the MAUR to deliver "solutions", rather than articulating needs?
17:15:22 [MichielBijl]
You can find plenty of examples where you have subtitles and audio description
17:15:24 [Judy]
17:15:57 [janina_]
17:16:03 [MichielBijl]
RS: Thank you for inviting me
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17:16:17 [Ralph]
[Ralph notes for Daltonization]
17:16:32 [MichielBijl]
JF: I’m just curious
17:16:38 [MichielBijl]
You made mention of delivering solutions
17:16:53 [MichielBijl]
Was my understanding that the MAUR was about documenting use cases
17:17:15 [janina_]
ack jf
17:17:15 [Zakim]
JF, you wanted to ask if it is the role of the MAUR to deliver "solutions", rather than articulating needs?
17:17:17 [JF]
ack JF
17:17:22 [janina_]
ack ju
17:17:45 [MichielBijl]
JB: Motivation was to find the support between HTML and ??
17:18:11 [MichielBijl]
We wanted to achieve a technology neutral document
17:18:32 [MichielBijl]
With of those things in hand it should facilitate the technology options
17:18:50 [MichielBijl]
Until we have that each meeting there is a discussion
17:19:08 [MichielBijl]
17:19:16 [MichielBijl]
We noticed that since then there are a couple of groups
17:19:34 [MichielBijl]
That from time to time ?? other APIs
17:19:55 [MichielBijl]
One aspect is colour schemes
17:20:06 [MichielBijl]
Another is flash ??
17:20:21 [LJWatson]
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17:20:36 [Ralph]
17:20:45 [janina_]
17:21:02 [MichielBijl]
We can just capture the colour scheme aspect and the flash mitigation
17:21:06 [MichielBijl]
Happy to tell more about
17:21:08 [MichielBijl]
17:21:17 [MichielBijl]
JS: And very important
17:21:26 [MichielBijl]
Also some legal ramifications
17:21:34 [MichielBijl]
Make sure developers are aware of them
17:21:41 [MichielBijl]
What we need to follow through on
17:21:57 [MichielBijl]
Most of us have non real time things in mind
17:22:14 [MichielBijl]
There is the real time world as well that we’re working on
17:22:24 [MichielBijl]
All of them will probably come into play
17:22:32 [MichielBijl]
If we think of an entity like Canada
17:22:37 [MichielBijl]
About some thing
17:22:42 [MichielBijl]
That they would stream
17:22:56 [MichielBijl]
Being Canadian they have to do it in English and French.
17:22:59 [Judy]
s/WebTT/...a debate between which technology better address some user needs, TTML, or WebVTT?/
17:23:20 [MichielBijl]
But you would also like to support the third scenario
17:23:42 [MichielBijl]
17:23:51 [MichielBijl]
Also automatically decide which language you need
17:24:03 [MichielBijl]
Not sure WebRTC can do that
17:24:27 [MichielBijl]
s/can do/is appropriate for/
17:24:38 [MichielBijl]
We don’t have a standardised control
17:24:40 [Judy]
s/That from time to time ?? other APIs/That from time to time work in areas that relate to media accessibility, but without realizing the tie-ins such as the need for APIs, nor the availability of the MAUR doc/
17:25:07 [Judy]
17:25:11 [janina_]
17:25:15 [MichielBijl]
JF: I’m struggling to understand what it is we’re trying to achieve
17:25:21 [janina_]
ack jf
17:25:36 [MichielBijl]
JB: There’s still a very active a11y effort in W3C
17:25:44 [MichielBijl]
We’re opparating in different ways
17:25:57 [MichielBijl]
And media a11y issues come up sometimes
17:26:02 [MichielBijl]
In unexpected placed
17:26:44 [MichielBijl]
I think it may be useful to look at this question of where are media a11y opportunities coming up
17:27:11 [MichielBijl]
What would the APA need
17:27:25 [MichielBijl]
We want to drive the support for media a11y support
17:27:37 [MichielBijl]
JF: There have been two specific issues
17:27:39 [MichielBijl]
17:27:57 [MichielBijl]
The other is about, lost the thread, switching between languages etc
17:28:00 [MichielBijl]
Real time support
17:28:32 [MichielBijl]
That somehow they can choose they can choose which audio stream they want to select?
17:28:36 [MichielBijl]
JS: Yeah, and also video
17:28:39 [Judy]
17:28:53 [MichielBijl]
RS: The content has to be there
17:28:59 [Judy]
q+ to ask a question
17:29:04 [MichielBijl]
Our scope here is to say the content should be available
17:29:10 [MichielBijl]
And we need the support
17:29:16 [MichielBijl]
for languages
17:29:28 [MichielBijl]
JS: ANd that last point is what APA is running into to
17:29:37 [MichielBijl]
We need to review whether it’s relevant
17:29:46 [MichielBijl]
We know it’s related to audio or something else
17:29:49 [Ralph]
s/need the support/need the infrastructure support/
17:29:51 [MichielBijl]
I spend a lot of time on MEDIA
17:29:57 [Ralph]
s/for lang/for users to choose lang/
17:30:17 [MichielBijl]
We weren’t only talking about real time, but it’s hard to tell sometimes where it fits
17:30:27 [MichielBijl]
Where these APIs fit in the larger picture
17:31:00 [MichielBijl]
For APA one thing that is missing is how to place the APIs in the larger scheme
17:31:12 [Judy]
17:31:14 [MichielBijl]
Sometimes it’s hard to start the conversation on that.
17:31:16 [janina_]
ack ju
17:31:16 [Zakim]
Judy, you wanted to ask a question
17:31:24 [Judy]
17:31:51 [MichielBijl]
JB: Are you asking hey let’s look at maybe how can we make the document better known?
17:31:58 [MichielBijl]
If you look at the structure of the document
17:32:06 [MichielBijl]
There’re three main sections
17:32:16 [MichielBijl]
1. Summary of Accessible Media Requirements by Type of Disability
17:32:21 [MichielBijl]
2. Alternative Content Technologies
17:32:26 [MichielBijl]
3. System Requirements
17:33:11 [MichielBijl]
*description of these categories, please refer to document itself*
17:33:14 [JF]
I am still confused. The use-cases Janina has risen seems (to me) to be covered in the MAUR already. For example, the ability to switch language streams should be covered by this: [DAC-3] The user can browse the alternatives and switch between them.
17:33:31 [janina_]
17:33:36 [JF]
and perhaps this: [DAC-7] During time-based media playback, the user can determine which tracks are available and select or deselect tracks. These selections may override global default settings for captions, descriptions, etc.
17:33:44 [MichielBijl]
JB: I’m thinking maybe coming up with structure questions to focus people’s attention could get us farther
17:33:58 [MichielBijl]
Does that match at all what you’re trying to achieve with this document?
17:34:02 [MichielBijl]
JS: It does for me
17:34:10 [MichielBijl]
JB: John does it help you?
17:34:10 [janina_]
17:34:44 [MichielBijl]
JF: I mean, you brought up a use case, I went and looked at the MAUR, we have two uses cases that fit your issues
17:34:58 [MichielBijl]
JS: I think it might be point 2 and 3
17:35:10 [MichielBijl]
Point 2 is a frequent issue for APA
17:35:22 [MichielBijl]
What we expect a particular API to achieve
17:35:51 [MichielBijl]
What could conceivable be picked up by implementers and the like
17:36:04 [MichielBijl]
Then we start to look at do we ??
17:36:14 [MichielBijl]
as well as APIs and sofort.
17:36:17 [janina_]
17:36:19 [MichielBijl]
s/sofort/so fort/
17:36:22 [janina_]
ack ra
17:36:34 [MichielBijl]
RS: John’s question makes an interesting poiint
17:36:40 [MichielBijl]
17:36:44 [JF]
s/so fort/so forth/
17:36:44 [MichielBijl]
As new WG are formed
17:37:18 [MichielBijl]
It’s hard for different WGs to look at APIs and see what the intersections may be
17:37:23 [JF]
17:37:29 [MichielBijl]
If we remind them that the MAUR exists
17:37:55 [MichielBijl]
If there is one thing I would encourage the APA to do
17:38:00 [MichielBijl]
Is to publish an update
17:38:10 [MichielBijl]
Would encourage to stage multiple updates
17:38:21 [MichielBijl]
To get more exposure as you update regularly
17:38:29 [janina_]
17:39:01 [janina_]
ack jf
17:39:09 [MichielBijl]
JF: Want a sanity check
17:39:16 [MichielBijl]
What I’m hearing is we’re talking about two things
17:39:23 [MichielBijl]
1. Perhaps need to revisit MAUR and plug things
17:39:29 [MichielBijl]
2. How do we socialise the MAUR
17:39:34 [MichielBijl]
(within the W3C)
17:39:40 [MichielBijl]
Am I understanding this correctly
17:39:44 [MichielBijl]
JS & JB: Yes
17:39:56 [MichielBijl]
JS: Or a spin off
17:40:08 [MichielBijl]
MAUR 2: Die Harder
17:40:30 [MichielBijl]
JS: Michael should we build this into the checklist?
17:40:38 [MichielBijl]
Think we have an early draft
17:40:44 [Ralph]
[publishing an update is one of the ways to socialize the resource]
17:40:46 [MichielBijl]
Doesn’t include media yet
17:40:54 [MichaelC]
17:40:54 [janina_]
17:41:22 [MichielBijl]
MC: So, I think in the APA we’ve been expected to come up with user requirements
17:41:28 [janina_]
Yes to similar counterparts
17:41:31 [MichielBijl]
Like payments(?)
17:41:37 [janina_]
Like payments
17:41:59 [MichielBijl]
The centrelised checklist if you scroll down to the fourth big black bar (that’s WCAG fail Michael)
17:42:15 [MichielBijl]
17:42:26 [janina_]
17:42:58 [MichielBijl]
JB: Are you looking for volunteers?
17:43:00 [Judy]
17:43:02 [MichielBijl]
JS: Yeah, I think so
17:43:08 [Gottfried]
q+ to mention relevant ISO standards
17:43:10 [MichielBijl]
A lot of us here are already overcomitted
17:43:37 [MichielBijl]
JB: Iw ould be interested to contribute to ?? and the flash mitigation
17:43:49 [MichielBijl]
GZ: I would volunteer
17:44:02 [MichielBijl]
There are some standards coming up
17:44:14 [MichielBijl]
For example how text is contained in frames
17:44:28 [MichielBijl]
Something we should look at when we revise this document.
17:44:34 [MichielBijl]
JS: Any other thoughts?
17:44:54 [MichielBijl]
RS: Thanks for inviting me and would like to return from time to time
17:45:08 [MichielBijl]
JS: Interested to learn how to socialise the MAUR
17:45:12 [MichielBijl]
RS: One of our big goals
17:45:31 [MichielBijl]
Judy has support from other seniors to spread this around
17:45:39 [MichielBijl]
JS: Going once
17:45:42 [MichielBijl]
going twice
17:45:45 [MichielBijl]
17:46:11 [MichielBijl]
JS: Michael, a question: are there any new publications?
17:46:24 [MichielBijl]
17:46:51 [MichielBijl]
zakim, take up item 6
17:46:51 [Zakim]
agendum 6. "Input Events" taken up [from janina_]
17:47:09 [MichielBijl]
JS: This is a WP set of issues
17:47:14 [MichielBijl]
We lost Rich S.
17:47:19 [MichielBijl]
He was the last to review
17:47:30 [MichielBijl]
We do have some comments from back in November
17:47:40 [MichielBijl]
LW: Did they make it as far as the group working on the spec
17:47:52 [MichielBijl]
JS: They might need some cleanup before we formally put them forward
17:48:04 [MichielBijl]
Not exactly sure how to go about the cleanup
17:48:18 [MichielBijl]
LW: Don’t mind taking a look at them
17:48:59 [MichielBijl]
The group that are working on them have a planned call around 13th of February
17:49:08 [MichielBijl]
I’ll prioritise this
17:49:42 [MichielBijl]
JS: Do you want two weeks?
17:49:46 [janina_]
action: Leonie to move forward from Rich's start re Input Events due +2 weeks
17:49:46 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-2110 - Move forward from rich's start re input events due +2 weeks [on Léonie Watson - due 2017-02-01].
17:49:54 [MichielBijl]
LW: Yes, won’t be here next week, will try to respond to the list before then.
17:50:24 [MichaelC]
action-2110 due 2 weeks
17:50:24 [trackbot]
Set action-2110 Move forward from rich's start re input events due +2 weeks due date to 2017-02-08.
17:50:32 [MichaelC]
17:50:32 [trackbot]
Notes added to action-2110 Move forward from rich's start re input events due +2 weeks.
17:50:38 [MichaelC]
17:50:38 [trackbot]
Notes added to action-2110 Move forward from rich's start re input events due +2 weeks.
17:50:51 [MichielBijl]
zakim, take up item 7
17:50:51 [Zakim]
agendum 7. "Updating DOM--Any RFEs?" taken up [from janina_]
17:51:07 [MichielBijl]
JS: There’re various DOM specs open for review
17:51:14 [MichielBijl]
Do we need to keep bringing this up
17:51:34 [MichielBijl]
SM: Have discussed this with Rich, please keep on the list
17:51:38 [MichielBijl]
JS: Will do!
17:52:01 [MichielBijl]
MC: That’s related to Shadow DOM, are there any other DOM specs we need to track?
17:52:08 [MichielBijl]
JS: All of them
17:52:17 [MichielBijl]
MC: What’re all the DOM specs?
17:53:19 [MichielBijl]
JS: Steve F. send something to the chairs list, can’t find it at the moment
17:53:31 [MichielBijl]
MC: I don’t see it either
17:53:40 [MichielBijl]
Wondering if we’re missing something in our Wiki
17:53:43 [MichielBijl]
JS: I’ll find it
17:53:54 [MichielBijl]
Not right now, but I’ll find it or drop the question
17:54:17 [MichielBijl]
17:54:39 [MichielBijl]
zakim, take up item 5
17:54:39 [Zakim]
agendum 5. "APA's Accessibility Checklist" taken up [from See Below via janina_]
17:54:51 [MichielBijl]
MC: Don’t feel it has had sufficient review
17:54:57 [MichielBijl]
John has reviewed it
17:55:03 [MichielBijl]
But nobody has made any comments
17:55:22 [MichielBijl]
s/John has/John has accepted to/
17:55:36 [MichielBijl]
s/nobody has/nobody else has/
17:56:10 [MichielBijl]
LW: Is it worth asking some people outside the a11y community to get an outside review of it
17:56:42 [MichielBijl]
MC: I’ve had some feedback, that it’s too wordy, needs editorial review
17:56:57 [MichielBijl]
Give a couple weeks for that
17:57:07 [MichielBijl]
And as a second round do what Léonie is suggesting
17:57:11 [MichielBijl]
Not sure where to go there
17:57:20 [MichielBijl]
But might be best to start with groups we work with
17:57:31 [MichielBijl]
Ask them “will this make it easier to work with us”
17:57:43 [MichielBijl]
Maybe the furthest we can go before the AC meeting
17:57:53 [MichielBijl]
After that we can take it to a wider audience for input
17:58:09 [MichielBijl]
JS: John, how much time do you think you need?
17:58:19 [MichielBijl]
JF: Want to get the spreadsheet finished first
17:58:22 [MichielBijl]
How about a week?
17:58:26 [MichielBijl]
JS: Okay that sounds fine
17:58:35 [MichielBijl]
17:58:37 [MichielBijl]
17:59:14 [MichielBijl]
JS: Calling a CFC will put us all on record
17:59:43 [MichielBijl]
Any other business
17:59:49 [MichielBijl]
zakim, take up item 9
17:59:52 [Zakim]
agendum 9. "next and future meetings" taken up [from janina_]
18:00:21 [MichielBijl]
RRSAgent, make minutes
18:00:21 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate MichielBijl
18:07:22 [Judy]
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MichaelC has joined #apa